ATD 2017 Draft Thread II

[VanIslander]

Last year Cowley and Stewart went in the 140-160 pick range. They were among those I was referring to when I said I was glad Fedorov dropped this year and wished he'd dropped a little further.

You said my opinion was "extreme".

I couldn't exactly refer to undrafteds at the time.

Now I am clarifying my comment. And it ain't so extreme.

Done. End of discussion.

The BPAs for a loooong time are at a totally different position anyways, eh?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Last year Cowley and Stewart went in the 140-160 pick range. They were among those I was referring to when I said I was glad Fedorov dropped this year and wished he'd dropped a little further.

You said my opinion was "extreme".

I couldn't exactly refer to undrafteds at the time.

Now I am clarifying my comment. And it ain't so extreme.

Done. End of discussion.

The BPAs for a loooong time are at a totally different position anyways, eh?

Given those two are god awful defensively and need to be better built around I would take Fedorov ahead of them fairly easily.

 

[VanIslander]

Since when is Cowley "god awful" defensively? Scotty Bowman's childhood hero!

He is in the business of creating scoring opportunities for his line-mates, even scoring, occasionally, a goal or two himself. He hasn't the speed of Sylvanus Apps, the Leafs' one-man tornado, but he's a better play-maker. He hasn't the spectacular qualities of Morenz. Rather, he's a combination of these two, plus a dash of Nighbor.

A certain ATD coach describes Sly Apps as not at all defensive in his style of play, but no one knocks him for it. This is not to say Cowley is irresponsible defensively. What makes you think he's like Esposito defensively?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Since when is Cowley "god awful" defensively? Scotty Bowman's childhood hero!

Wait really? I'm pretty Cowley was unwilling to back check at all

Read this

http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2012/12/backchecking-bill-cowley-not-chance.html

He literally says he only backchecked twice

 

[jarek]

Given those two are god awful defensively and need to be better built around I would take Fedorov ahead of them fairly easily.

Not only that, but it makes no sense whatsoever to look at past draft positions, as I am having to remind myself. VI himself said we're building teams and not all-time lists, and thus the positions players go in will fluctuate based on team needs. For that reason, it's a lot more attractive to take good all around centers because there's a lot more of them than good all around wingers. It makes building the team a lot easier.

Since when is Cowley "god awful" defensively? Scotty Bowman's childhood hero!

A certain ATD coach describes Sly Apps as not at all defensive in his style of play, but no one knocks him for it. This is not to say Cowley is irresponsible defensively. What makes you think he's like Esposito defensively?

VI, I do apologize, but your credibility just took a huge hit.

From the horse's mouth:

Originally Posted by Bill Cowley
I had a 100% record: two backchecks in my career, and no goals scored

 

[seventieslord]

Given those two are god awful defensively and need to be better built around I would take Fedorov ahead of them fairly easily.

Agree. The problem isn't where Fedorov gets taken among centers, it's that those two tend to fall further than they should.

Wait really? I'm pretty Cowley was unwilling to back check at all

Read this

http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2012/12/backchecking-bill-cowley-not-chance.html

He literally says he only backchecked twice

...beat me to it.

 

[King Forsberg]

I like Malkin and was tempted to pick him when I took Stewart. He has a complete arsenal of offensive weapons. His puck possession skills are elite even at this level. A guy with his skill, speed, and size are effective at controlling the pace whenever he's out there, leaving the other team to defend.

 

[Dreakmur]

VI, I do apologize, but your credibility just took a huge hit.

From the horse's mouth:

To me, that quote doesn't mean a whole lot. With no context, there's no way to know if he was trying to be funny or serious.

Having said that, I have not seen anything to suggest Cowley contributed anything in the defensive end. That likely means he didn't contribute in any meaningful way, which, in the ATD, make him a worse then average at best.

 

[Dreakmur]

FYI Just got home from work.... and I'm real stumped right now. I was actually expecting Keon to be here, so I need to do a little work before my pick.

On that note, if you want this pick, it's up for grabs... though I won't be waiting for a deal. Once I find the player I want, I'll pick.

Sorry for the delay.

 

[jarek]

To me, that quote doesn't mean a whole lot. With no context, there's no way to know if he was trying to be funny or serious.

Having said that, I have not seen anything to suggest Cowley contributed anything in the defensive end. That likely means he didn't contribute in any meaningful way, which, in the ATD, make him a worse then average at best.

That's the thing. There's no evidence at all that Cowley ever backchecked. That "dash of Nighbor" bit could mean absolutely anything.

I do wish however that we had an actual source of that quote within the context of the conversation it was made in.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

In 1933, he was pretty clearly 3rd in total voting points, so I'd put him there..

I don't follow...he clearly has less votes than Clancy. Are you saying he should be ahead of one of the 2 guys named 1st Team AS?

He was 8th in 1935 as well. I think you missed that.

Yes I did, on my phone so I will check when I get home.

In 1937, he was a 2nd team all-star and a distant 4th in overall voting... gotta call this a 4th.

Results: 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 8, 8.

I will check this in more detail when I'm home but this seemed a clear case to me that Conacher was playing primarily LD this season and got stuck behind the Hart winner who was having a monster season. The 2nd in Hart voting also supports this.

This would be like if Brad Park finished behind Bobby Orr at RD with Potvin finishing 1st at LD and Borje Salming as the 2nd team at LD. Park would likely have the 4th most votes because he would lose so many to Orr whereas Potvin/Salming were more of a split. That doesn't mean Park should be lower than Salming, particularly if he finished runner-up to Orr for the Hart very slightly ahead of Potvin.

 

[Dreakmur]

Orillia Terriers select Mark Recchi

 

[tony d]

Orillia Terriers select Mark Recchi

.

Was going to pick him at 143 but figured you would have scooped me.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

Keon is such a weird one. He may end up being one of the worst offensive players on a second line, especially in a draft this size. It's hard to take him early because you want your top 2 lines to score, but Keon almost forces you to make any line with him on it an elite checking line.

Yea I wanted a 2nd line center who could be a playmaker, good two-way player and possibly kill penalties. I looked at Dave Keon long and hard, but I ultimately went for the more offensive of the two players. Plus I knew that Mario Lemieux and Ron Francis will have great chemistry . I did almost pick Keon at #128 though I think you got him at pretty decent value, he brings a lot to the table!

 

[jarek]

Yea I wanted a 2nd line center who could be a playmaker, good two-way player and possibly kill penalties. I looked at Dave Keon long and hard, but I ultimately went for the more offensive of the two players. Plus I knew that Mario Lemieux and Ron Francis will have great chemistry . I did almost pick Keon at #128 though I think you got him at pretty decent value, he brings a lot to the table!

Wasn't me that took him!

Personally I'm not very high on Keon. One 4th in Hart voting. Only two all star teams. His Smythe is impressive but his overall resume just isn't very strong in my mind. I don't get the hype over him.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I got the clear cut better player in the same mold backing up Taylor

 

[Voight]

Indiana Ice will select C Peter Stastny!

Great player to have anchor the second line and provide great offensive support. Will definitely need to make a new bio.

 

[VanIslander]

I've read a lot of hockey history and never read anything about Cowley's play without the puck before. Zip, zero. I never said he was good defensively. I questioned the "god awful defensively" comment in the absence of evidence. Evidence was provided from a source I hadn't read before. I noted my appreciation to getting it. There, something learned. That's one of the good things about hockey history drafts: how much one learns. (There's no issue of credibility jarek, unless one claims to know everything. I questioned a bald assertion and then evidence was provided. That's all.)

Hate when people do this. Its not exactly hard to just look at the draft order and check ourselves.

The draft order doesn't say how long the clock is. One has to hunt through post after post to find out then do the math; reminder PMs are also helpful.

I'll make sure not to do it for you.

 

[jarek]

I've read a lot of hockey history and never read anything about Cowley's play without the puck before. Zip, zero. I never said he was good defensively. I questioned the "god awful defensively" comment in the absence of evidence. Evidence was provided from a source I hadn't read before. I noted my appreciation to getting it. There, something learned. That's one of the good things about hockey history drafts: how much one learns. (There's no issue of credibility jarek, unless one claims to know everything. I questioned a bald assertion and then evidence was provided. That's all.)


The draft order doesn't say how long the clock is. One has to hunt through post after post to find out then do the math; reminder PMs are also helpful.

I'll make sure not to do it for you.

Forgive me, I pretty much assumed (apparently incorrectly) that Cowley not being good defensively (in fact, most likely rather bad defensively) was common knowledge. That and the fact that he brings zero physical presence are the main reasons he drops as much as he does. He's a top-100 talent, but positional requirements and the desire of many GMs to have a center who has more qualities than scoring pushes him down.

 

[tony d]

I'm pleased with my team so far. Really like Kharlamov-Boucher on my 1st line. Lidstrom-Murphy on my 1st pairing will be good too. Tretiak is a top tier goalie of all time.

Still the issue of 1st line right wing is a huge hole on my team, I missed out on Conacher, Hextall, Smith and Recchi, anyways I will address the need now and take maybe not the best right winger on the board but for my needs he could be.

With pick 143 Toledo picks Right Winger Marian Hossa.

Position: RW • Shoots: Left
6-1, 207lb (185cm, 93kg)
Team: Chicago Blackhawks
Born: January 12, 1979 (Age: 38-019d)

Hossa's a 8 time 30 goal scorer and should also provide somewhat of a defensive presence for the line. I've always wanted to pick him and glad to do so now.

 

[Dreakmur]

Forgive me, I pretty much assumed (apparently incorrectly) that Cowley not being good defensively (in fact, most likely rather bad defensively) was common knowledge. That and the fact that he brings zero physical presence are the main reasons he drops as much as he does. He's a top-100 talent, but positional requirements and the desire of many GMs to have a center who has more qualities than scoring pushes him down.

I've actually found a good source that called him "clean, but aggressive". I'm not anticipating a whole lot, but we'll see what I can dig up!

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm pleased with my team so far. Really like Kharlamov-Boucher on my 1st line. Lidstrom-Murphy on my 1st pairing will be good too. Tretiak is a top tier goalie of all time.

Still the issue of 1st line right wing is a huge hole on my team, I missed out on Conacher, Hextall, Smith and Recchi, anyways I will address the need now and take maybe not the best right winger on the board but for my needs he could be.

With pick 143 Toledo picks Right Winger Marian Hossa.

Position: RW • Shoots: Left
6-1, 207lb (185cm, 93kg)
Team: Chicago Blackhawks
Born: January 12, 1979 (Age: 38-019d)

Hossa's a 8 time 30 goal scorer and should also provide somewhat of a defensive presence for the line. I've always wanted to pick him and glad to do so now.

That's a guy who was down to the last few when I settles on Recchi.

 

[Dreakmur]

My co-gm and I are super conflicted on our decision and we're going to need a little bit here to make a decision, so sit tight folks. We're torn between like 5-6 players.

It's that time in the draft. Not many players stick out.. and the ones that do have warts.

These next few rounds are where championship teams are made.....

 

[VanIslander]

Forgive me, I pretty much assumed (apparently incorrectly) that Cowley not being good defensively (in fact, most likely rather bad defensively) was common knowledge.

I've heard that opinion before but in the history books I haver and in the ATD bios that have been assembled there are no references to his defensive play or lack thereof.

I appreciated the funny self-revelation quote by Cowley in the link provided on this thread. The ATD bio on him needs to be updated with that. It's great!

 

[VanIslander]

Some more comments on recent picks.

• Has Luc Robitaille ever gone so high? 102nd overall. Wow. I personally love it given how much he had done by age 26. His first 7 years were dope. After that: compiler. "Lucky Luc" was quicker than some make him out to be, especially in tight spaces he could really hustle.
  
  As I wrote in my ATD 2013 bio:
  

  6'1, 210 lbs. left winger Luc Robitaille, whose first seven seasons were phenomenal with seven consecutive 1st or 2nd team all-star selections and seven straight years top-10 in goals. By age 26 he had already scored 382 NHL goals, including 34 playoff goals. He scored 799 points in his first 640 NHL games, not once in his first eight seasons dipping below the 84 point total of his rookie year. "Lucky" Luc worked hard to put himself in good scoring position and had a fantastic shot. He was known for his competiveness, even in practices, as much as he was known for his friendliness. He had a boatload of determination and it showed. He went on to play for over a decade more, including three more times top-10 in goals, five more times top-10 in powerplay goals, another 2nd team all-star. He is presently still top-10 all-time in career goals scored among all NHLers, tied with Jaromir Jagr. The fact that he has scored the most goals and points in history for a left winger is almost beside the point, as is his secondary role in a Stanley Cup championship in his 16th year.

• Pavel Bure at 107th overall. That looks right but he doesn't usually go here, does he?
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Max Bentley at 106th overall. An awesome value!
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Ching Johnson at 118th is closer down the list to where he belongs given his limited offense and poor skating - but unbeaten compete and physical level of play! History books speak about his bad skating in the same breath as his dominant checking.
  
  
  
  
  
  

  It was said in 1937 that Ching Johnson had spent 29 weeks of his 19-year hockey career in hospital beds

• Hod Stuart at 120th overall. Me likey. I've never drafted him but have often wanted to, but this high now makes him less of a value, more of a just (as in justice) positioning. His tragic end made him like a few others who dies prematurely, larger than life: