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ATD 2017 Draft Thread II

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BenchBrawl said:
Great pick, had hope he would fall to me.
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He is exactly who Namba 17 said would be available next on our long list, despite seven names ahead of him, and indeed... he was.

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EDIT: I'm the friggin 12-year ATDer and he the newbie .. but he schooled me on this one!
 
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Guys thanks for the pm Im at work so could someone please pm the next gm up. I only got a minute but the Bankers select C Ron Francis
 
With no other team in my division having selected a goaltender and the fall of 30ish picks this pick is a no brainer, the Montreal Maroons are very happy to select Georges Vezina, G

vezina.gif
 
I pmd resilentbeast thanks again guys. I didn't think I'd be up till later today but a nice run of picks killed my whole list. I think Francis as the #2 center behind Mario should be a good fit. They have quite a history together. I feel as Francis is sometimes overrated but then sometimes underrated. He can do everything score, playmake, win faceoffs, kill penalties, play the point on the pp and he was a great defensive-2 way forward.
 
JFA87-66-99 said:
I pmd resilentbeast thanks again guys. I didn't think I'd be up till later today but a nice run of picks killed my whole list. I think Francis as the #2 center behind Mario should be a good fit. They have quite a history together. I feel as Francis is sometimes overrated but then sometimes underrated. He can do everything score, playmake, win faceoffs, kill penalties, play the point on the pp and he was a great defensive-2 way forward.
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Francis is definitely a great pick. Very good player. We'd like to have him, just can't draft 'em all:)
 
VanIslander said:
Q: Is their defensive ability better enough than the next three more two-way blueliners to justify such early selection?

A: Maybe, maybe not.
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This is the only thing that caught my eye this weekend, aside from the mistake of drafting Luc Robitaille a) so early, b) for chemistry he supposedly, but didn't actually, have with Gretzky, and c) to create the softest first line in ATD history.

I think there might be some misconceptions about the offensive values of these players. First of all, in a real life sense, they are all two-way defensemen. It's only when they "graduate" up to the ATD when the question must be asked about whether they would begin to specialize more at one end of the ice or the other. It's reasonable to begin by assuming the defensemen with the best offensive resumes will continue to be relied on more by their ATD teams for offense.

Here are the six defensemen you mentioned, ranked by their VsX score for defensemen. Just this morning I did the pre-merger leagues so that Cleghorn could be analyzed in the same way. With the multiple leagues going on at once for 16 years, it's often difficult to determine just who should be the benchmark player and/or what the benchmark number in each league should be, further confounded by the fact that we're not always 100% sure who played defense in which seasons (though we're 90% sure Cleghorn himself never played anything but D/P/CP). As far as Cleghorn is concerned, there's definitely some "margin of error" there because of this, but I also think he's so far ahead of this group offensively so as to negate this factor.

These are the six defensemen you mentioned, ranked by 7-year VsX for defensemen (10 year score in parentheses):

Sprague Cleghorn: 743






Chris Pronger: 622
Earl Seibert: 620
Tim Horton: 608


Scott Stevens: 576


Zdeno Chara: 540

So I would not categorize Chara, Pronger and Stevens as the three best offensive weapons in the group at all. Pronger is very much "in the pack" and Stevens/Chara quite clearly were the least dominant offensive players of the bunch within their eras.

It's really easy, even for experienced people like us, to get sucked in by the higher numbers posted by defensemen post-Orr, but there were plenty of defensemen before him who distanced themselves from the pack consistently and should be recognized for the stronger puck movers they were.
 
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Some thoughts on recent picks:

Eric Lindros: Very good pick; Injuries are the only concern with him. The guy was such a dominant force, had he been healthy he would have been a top 10 player all-time.

Hod Stuart: Good pick by sprague to finish his 1st defensive pairing.

Jan Suchy: Very good pick, a great partner for the defensive Vasilev for sure.

Nels Stewart: Decent pick, should make for a very good 2nd line centre here.

Henrik Zetterberg: Solid pick on a back to back by King Forsberg. Zetterberg will bring defense and playamking to your 2nd pairing.

Moose Johnson: Solid pick, looks like he'll be a good partner for Park.

Doug Wilson: One of the better offensive defensemen here, should do well playing behind Potvin if you keep your rosters as is in the roster thread.

Didier pitre: A bit of a reach here given he went in the 200's in the past. You needed a right winger though so I can see why you picked him.

Syd Howe: A good choice, nice to put him with Gordie though they're not related. I guess you'll play him more as a left winger than a centre.

Ron Francis: Nice pick, was a name I was going to consider for my #2 centre spot but that would require quite a drop. He'll be playing behind Lemieux which is a bit of familiarity there as well.

Georges Vezina: To me that #10 spot for all-time goalies is up in the air. Vezina though is as good a #10 goalie all time as anyone else.

Vladimir Martinec: Another solid pick, was a name I considered for my 1st line right wing spot.

Well those are my thoughts on the recent picks, still looking to move up from 143.
 
seventieslord said:
I agree. "best bet" means I'm not necessarily that passionate about it, but if I was forced to pick a goalie at that time, it would have been him.
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Especially as being part of the only goalieless division, it made the pick really easy. Typically I think he's pretty good value, so I'm happy to have another top 10 player on my team. Happy to give him the bio he deserves

I also think all ten goalies have been good value so far.
 
For the record as well, Vezina was my 3rd choice on my list when I went with Tretiak (Brimsek was the other).
 
ResilientBeast said:
Especially as being part of the only goalieless division, it made the pick really easy. Typically I think he's pretty good value, so I'm happy to have another top 10 player on my team. Happy to give him the bio he deserves

I also think all ten goalies have been good value so far.
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Vezina already has some good bios, doesn't he?
 
tony d said:
Some thoughts on recent picks:

Eric Lindros: Very good pick; Injuries are the only concern with him. The guy was such a dominant force, had he been healthy he would have been a top 10 player all-time.

Hod Stuart: Good pick by sprague to finish his 1st defensive pairing.

Jan Suchy: Very good pick, a great partner for the defensive Vasilev for sure.

Nels Stewart: Decent pick, should make for a very good 2nd line centre here.

Henrik Zetterberg: Solid pick on a back to back by King Forsberg. Zetterberg will bring defense and playamking to your 2nd pairing.

Moose Johnson: Solid pick, looks like he'll be a good partner for Park.

Doug Wilson: One of the better offensive defensemen here, should do well playing behind Potvin if you keep your rosters as is in the roster thread.

Didier pitre: A bit of a reach here given he went in the 200's in the past. You needed a right winger though so I can see why you picked him.

Syd Howe: A good choice, nice to put him with Gordie though they're not related. I guess you'll play him more as a left winger than a centre.

Ron Francis: Nice pick, was a name I was going to consider for my #2 centre spot but that would require quite a drop. He'll be playing behind Lemieux which is a bit of familiarity there as well.

Georges Vezina: To me that #10 spot for all-time goalies is up in the air. Vezina though is as good a #10 goalie all time as anyone else.

Vladimir Martinec: Another solid pick, was a name I considered for my 1st line right wing spot.

Well those are my thoughts on the recent picks, still looking to move up from 143.
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Pitre was 51st in wingers in hoh list..?
 
Ideally, we'd want to not be using either, but since not all of us have photographic memories, they're both good guides to who the next best players might be. If TZ can make a good case for Pitre as an at least average 1st line winger in this thing, Pitre won't slip back into the 200s again. But that's up to him.
 
Johnny Engine said:
Ideally, we'd want to not be using either, but since not all of us have photographic memories, they're both good guides to who the next best players might be. If TZ can make a good case for Pitre as an at least average 1st line winger in this thing, Pitre won't slip back into the 200s again. But that's up to him.
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That's ultimately what happens, isn't it? People bring up new information or make compelling arguments for specific players, and those players rise. Inevitably, that means other players must fall. Pitre, unfortunately, hasn't exactly gotten much love recently so it's not surprising that he continues to fall.

Just a warning about past draft lists, and I keep having to remind myself of this as well: the draft list reflects needs and fit required for teams as much, if not more so, than the quality of each player in a vacuum, especially later in the draft. Joliat and Ullman were not the best available players at their respective positions when I took them, for example, but they represented what I felt was the best possible fit at the time.
 
jarek said:
That's ultimately what happens, isn't it? People bring up new information or make compelling arguments for specific players, and those players rise. Inevitably, that means other players must fall. Pitre, unfortunately, hasn't exactly gotten much love recently so it's not surprising that he continues to fall.
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The problem with Pitre is

1) he spent prime time in the IHL which didn't compete for the cup
2) his numbers suffer from bouncing from RW/D
3) he was big but wasn't physical
4) he wasn't special defensively

IIRC

If any one of those were different he'd probably go a lot higher
 
ResilientBeast said:
The problem with Pitre is

1) he spent prime time in the IHL which didn't compete for the cup
2) his numbers suffer from bouncing from RW/D
3) he was big but wasn't physical
4) he wasn't special defensively

IIRC
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All fair points, and I'm not going to sit here and say he was a good pick at the time he was taken. It reminds me of when I took a certain player a few drafts ago and got universally lambasted for trying to paint him as anything more than mediocre at what he was good at. :laugh:
 
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