ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

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nik jr

Registered User
Sep 25, 2005
10,798
7
Well, are you going to say the coach of the team was wrong?

... Seibert was the biggest factor in Chicago's Cinderella Stanley Cup victory in 1938 ... Kings of the Ice elaborates: "The biggest reason we won," coach Bill Stewart asserted, "was that we had Earl Seibert on our defense. The big guy played about 55 minutes a game."

You're basically refuting both Kings of the Ice, Ultimate Hockey, AND Seibert's coach. I hope you have a pretty impressive argument.
i asked about a report from 1944. i still don't see how that means much about 1938.

if you had just said seibert was arguably chicago's best player (which may be true), instead of the very hyperbolic "single-handedly carried them," (clearly not true) i probably would not even have looked into it.

i am just telling you what i see in the papers. i don't know why ultimate hockey has so much credibility here.

does it say when bill stewart said that?
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
i asked about a report from 1944. i still don't see how that means much about 1938.

if you had just said seibert was arguably chicago's best player (which may be true), instead of the very hyperbolic "single-handedly carried them," (clearly not true) i probably would not even have looked into it.

i am just telling you what i see in the papers. i don't know why ultimate hockey has so much credibility here.

does it say when bill stewart said that?

Um, after the cup win, obviously, considering Stewart specifically mentioned the cup run.

EDIT: The quote from Stewart comes directly after KotI says "In 1938 he led the Blackhawks to the Stanley Cup, defeating the Toronto Maple Leafs in five games." This comes directly from Legends of Hockey as well, minus the quote from Stewart.
 

nik jr

Registered User
Sep 25, 2005
10,798
7
Um, after the cup win, obviously, considering Stewart specifically mentioned the cup run.

EDIT: The quote from Stewart comes directly after KotI says "In 1938 he led the Blackhawks to the Stanley Cup, defeating the Toronto Maple Leafs in five games." This comes directly from Legends of Hockey as well, minus the quote from Stewart.
i think it would have more credibility if it is from 1938 or 1939 than from seibert's induction ceremony, for example.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
i think it has more credibility if it was from 1938 or 1939 than from seibert's induction ceremony, for example.

That's a good point. I can't imagine that the quote is from anything other than shortly after the cup run, but KotI doesn't have a date for when the interview or whatever took place.

By the way, I imagine that the 1944 stuff was from when Chicago beat Detroit in 1944 playoffs, so I guess that was my fault. Sorry.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
"They (Canadiens and Hawks) met in a semifinal in 1938, and Earl Seibert, still the kingpin of the Hawk defence, sparked an attack which carried the Chicagoans into the finals and on to the Stanley Cup." - Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Apr. 4, 1944

A 1944 quote speaking of the 1938 series against Montreal.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
And this one, acknowledging that Seibert was basically the best player in Chicago:

"Boston's cool guy is just one of the many well-versed hockey men who believes Detroit Red Wings traded themselves to a Stanley Cup when they obtained Earl Seibert...Toronto's Conny Smythe backs up the cool guy claim and looks upon Red Wings as the club to take it all...even Montreal isn't so sure but what they're right...they all agree Seibert will be a damaging fellow in the playoffs now that he isn't carrying a whole team around on his back, which was his chore at Chicago...even goalie some dude of the Leafs gets in a plug for Seibert when he remarks that massive Earl is the most fearsome sight in the whole NHL when he comes charging over the blue line..."you just hope somebody gets him before he blasts you, net and all, right out of the rink," ..." - Leader-Post, Jan. 11, 1945
 

BillyShoe1721

Terriers
Mar 29, 2007
17,252
6
Philadelphia, PA
RW Jari Kurri

jari-kurri.jpg


Hockey Hall of Fame Member
#50 THN's 100 Greatest Players of All Time
8x NHL All Star Game Participant
1x Lady Byng Trophy Winner
2x 1st-Team NHL All Star
3x 2nd-Team NHL All Star
5x Stanley Cup Champion
4x Top 10 Goals (1, 2, 3, 5)
6x Top 17 Assists (9, 9, 10, 16, 16, 17)
8x Top 19 Points (2, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 13, 19)
7x Top 10 Goals in Playoffs (1, 1, 1, 1, 7, 8, 9)
7x Top 10 Assists in Playoffs (3, 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10)
6x Top 10 Points in Playoffs (2, 3, 3, 4, 6, 7)
2x 1st in NHL GWG
5x Top 10 SHG (3, 4, 5, 6, 10)
6th All-Time SHG
2x 1st in NHL GPG
1,398 points in 1,251 career NHL games
233 points in 200 career playoff games
6x Top 11 Selke Voting (2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11)
6x Top 3 Selke Voting Among RW (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3)
14th Hart Trophy Voting 84-85
3x Top 5 Lady Byng Voting (2, 3, 4)
2x WC All Star Team
2nd in Playoff Points, 1st in goals, 3rd in assists during peak (80-90)
3rd in Points, 2nd in goals during peak (80-90)

Playing the majority of his career both with Wayne Gretzky and in Gretzky's shadow as his so called, "Right-hand Man," Jari Pekka Kurri was considered by many to be perhaps the best defensive forward in the NHL. His two-way abilities were the perfect complement for his hard, accurate shooting and scoring proficiency.

By age 17, Kurri had realized part of his dream by playing with Jokerit's senior club. He spent three seasons in the Elite League, steadily progressing from two to 16 to 23 goals. During that time he also realized another dream by playing for the Finnish Junior National Team in 1978, 1979, and 1980. Kurri scored what proved to be the biggest goal of his early career at the 1978 European Junior Championship against the Soviet Union, in double overtime, to capture Finland's first gold medal. For his efforts, Kurri was named the Best Forward at the tournament. Later he tied for the tournament scoring lead at the 1980 World Junior tournament, capturing Finland's first WJC medal, a silver. His efforts earned him a berth on Finland's 1980 Olympic Team and led the Edmonton Oilers to select him 69th overall in that summer's Entry Draft.

xxx started the season on the number-one line with Wayne Gretzky, but things were not working and by Christmas it was Jari's turn to play with Wayne. Instantly the magic was created and one of the most lethal combinations in NHL history was born.

Over the next eight seasons, the duo wowed NHL crowds everywhere they went, not only breaking records...but obliterating them. Similar to his years in Finland, Kurri's play steadily improved. He recorded a 100-point season in 1982-83 and reached the 50-goal mark the following year, the first Finnish-born player to reach both marks. The Oilers also captured the Stanley Cup in 1984, beginning a run of four championships in five years. During that time, Kurri recorded career highs of 71 goals and 135 points in 1984-85 (a single season record for goals by a right-winger), capturing the Lady Byng Trophy and finishing second to Gretzky in the scoring race. During the playoffs he recorded 19 goals on the way to the Stanley Cup, tying the playoff goal scoring record set by Reggie Leach in 1976. From 1984 to 1988, the "Master of the One-Timer" recorded four consecutive 50-goal seasons and led the playoffs in goals each time the Oilers won the Cup. Despite capturing only one major award throughout this period, Kurri was honoured with two First Team and two Second Team All-Star berths. As Barry Fraser, the Oilers' Personnel Director, once put it, "We've got some outstanding people, eh? All-Stars, right? But Kurri is by far our most complete player."

Following Gretzky's trade to Los Angeles in 1988, there were those who believed Jari Kurri's success would come to an abrupt end. But over the next two years, like a man on a mission, he recorded 195 points in 154 games, leading the Oilers to their fifth Stanley Cup in 1990 and earning another berth on the Second All-Star Team. Kurri also became just the 25th NHL player to reach the 1,000th point milestone.

Because of the Oilers' domination throughout the 1980's, Kurri managed to play in only four World Championships throughout his career--1982, 1989, 1991, and 1994. Finland won a silver medal in 1994 and Kurri was named the All-Star right-winger in both the 1991 and 1994 tournaments. He also played in the 1981, 1987, and 1991 Canada Cups and 1996 World Cup, and during his final year of competitive hockey he captured the bronze medal at the 1998 Olympic Winter Games. Kurri played a total of 65 tournament games for the senior national team, recording 26 goals and 52 points against top-level world competition.

After a season in Italy and an NHL trade to Philadelphia, the Los Angeles Kings managed to pry Kurri away from the Flyers and he was back in North America, re-united with his longtime pal, Wayne Gretzky. By the 1992-93 season, they had re-kindled the old magic, leading the Kings to their first Stanley Cup finals appearance. Kurri also became the first European-trained player and 18th NHLer to record 500 career goals, although he accomplished the feat with Gretzky in the press box with an injury, a fact he truly regretted. He spent five seasons with the Kings, the latter time of which were injury-riddled. In 1996, he was traded to the New York Rangers where he played only 25 games before signing that summer with the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim. He played a full season and was a mentor for many of the young European stars the Ducks had acquired, notably xxx.

Kurri contemplated retirement following the 1996-97 season, but with an offer from the Colorado Avalanche and a chance to reach the 600 career goal mark and win another Stanley Cup, he couldn't resist. Late in the season, he did, in fact, score his 600th goal, becoming just the eighth NHL player in history to do so. However, the Avalanche was upset in the first round of the playoffs.

Jari Kurri finished his career as the highest scoring European-born player in NHL history with totals of 601 goals, 797 assists, and 1,398 points. He also finished with 106 career PLAYOFF goals and 233 PLAYOFF points, third all-time behind only Wayne Gretzky and Mark Messier. While he wasn't the flashiest player, Kurri was consistent and this ability alone enabled him to become an icon for thousands of fans and young players, both in Finland and throughout North America.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Lege...?mem=p200104&type=Player&page=bio&list=#photo

But it takes an extraordinary athlete to be able to excel with Gretzky that way Jari Kurri has.

Contrary to popular belief, it is not easy to play on the wing of a superstar like Wayne Gretzky. You have to be thinking on the same level as he is, or at least close to that level. Very few players can achieve this level of hockey sense and anticipation. Only a true superstar can. A true superstar like Jari Kurri.

Jari Kurri has teamed with Wayne Gretzky to form one of sports' most dynamic duos. Montana-Rice, Kareem-Magic and Canseco-Maguire have nothing on these guys.

For most of the 1980s, hockey fans in Edmonton enjoyed the Gretzky-Kurri magic on a nightly basis - the Great One's feathery passes complementing the flying Finn's finishing touch. In fact the duo teamed up for 429 goals while in Edmonton. Not bad for what coach Glen Sather described as "a hunch" as to why he teamed the two together in the first place.

With 601 career goals and 1398 career points, Kurri retired the highest scoring European in National Hockey League history. (he has since been surpassed by Jaromir Jagr.) On four occasions he scored at least 50 goals, and tallied at least 40 three other times. The five time all star also had six 100 point seasons.

In 1984-85 Kurri established a record for goals in a single season by a right winger with 71 (since surpassed by xxx, xxx and xxx) on way to a career-high 135 points. He added a NHL record-tying 19 goals (tying xxx in 1976) in 18 playoff games. He recorded four hat tricks in that playoffs, including one four goal game, to help Edmonton capture the second of five Stanley Cup titles during his playing days in the City of Champions.

Jari Kurri played his best hockey in the playoffs. He almost singlehandedly destroy the myth that European players are soft and disappear in the heat of NHL playoff competition. Jari has 5 Stanley Cup rings. He led all playoff performers in goal scoring in 4 different post seasons. The Oilers won the Cup each year Jari led the way in goals.

Overshadowed by superstar teammates Gretzky, Mark Messier, xxx and Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri was described by Edmonton chief scout Barry Fraser as "by far our most complete player." An excellent skater blessed with speed and agility, Kurri always knew how to dart into openings for Gretzky's deft passes. He rarely had the puck long if he was in scoring position. His release was quick but deadly accurate.

"Jari had a great shot and he had a great ability to find holes and to find openings out on the ice," said Mike Gartner. "Playing with a guy like Gretzky for a good part of his career where Wayne could get him the puck and there weren't too many guys who were ever better at finding those holes on the ice than Jari was."

Kurri was also a strong defensive presence which allowed Gretzky to concentrate on offense. He was never considered a physical player, but was unafraid of the corners and sacrificed his body to make a play.

When #99 departed for Hollywood, some people though that Kurri's production would plummet. That was definitely not the case. In the first Gretzky-less season in Edmonton Kurri was named the Oilers’ team MVP. In the 154 Oilers regular-season games Kurri played following Gretzky's departure, he registered 195 points, well more than a point-per-game average. His 25 playoff points were third highest on the team when the Oilers captured the Stanley Cup just two season's after Gretzky's goodbye.

Kurri remained in Los Angeles through 1996, though his ice time and role were reduced to that of a defensive specialist. Kurri would also spend time with the New York Rangers, Anaheim Mighty Ducks and the Colorado Avalanche before retiring in 1998.

One of the game's classiest men was a shoo-in for the Hockey Hall of Fame when he first became eligible in 2001. In addition to his impressive regular season totals (601 goals, 1398 points) his 106 career playoff goals in 200 career playoff games rank third all time, behind fellow Oiler legends Gretzky (122) and Messier (109). Likewise his 233 career points are third best behind Gretzky (382) and Messier (295).

http://oilerslegends.blogspot.com/2006/05/jari-kurri.html

Kurri had a few unique attributes that made the most of their collective talents. Gretzky was the greatest passer in NHL history, but Kurri was one of the best ever at shooting off the pass without stopping the puck (the one-timer).

Even his excellent defensive skills could be an offensive plus, since the Oilers employed Kurri and Gretzky on the penalty kill, and they set new records for shorthanded goals.

Kurri's defensive skills were often overshadowed by his marvelous offensive numbers.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wp...ed=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=jari kurri&f=false

Future stars Paul Coffey and Jari Kurri...

http://books.google.com/books?id=jO...ed=0CFcQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=jari kurri&f=false

One of the best defensive forwards of the era, the right-hand man was the perfect compliment to the Great One. Over an 8 year period, the two broke record upon record.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vH...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=jari kurri&f=false

Jari Kurri, the fanciful Finnish sniper...

http://books.google.com/books?id=rE...=0CCsQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=jari kurri&f=false

He would also turn out to be a winger who could actually make Gretzky even better. His name was Jari Kurri.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gO...=0CD8Q6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=jari kurri&f=false

Jari Kurri was one of the primary offensive weapons of the great Edmonton Oilers teams of the 1980s.

A clutch performer, four times Kurri led all scorers in the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

One of the best hockey players ever to come out of Europe, Jari Kurri...

http://books.google.com/books?id=0b...=0CEUQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=jari kurri&f=false

Give WAYNE GRETZKY an assist for helping the Los Angeles Kings reunite the lethal line combination of Gretzky and JARI KURRI

http://www.google.com/search?q=jari...wBqTvnZwO&ved=0CBAQpwUoBg&fp=71fb7ddc50c08107

Kurri is making Oilers' fans forget 'Great One'

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...NAAAAIBAJ&pg=5530,2000340&dq=jari+kurri&hl=en

The heat was rising in Joe Louis Arena, but as far as Edmonton Oilers coach Glenn Sather was concerned, there was no sweat. Jari Kurri had the puck.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...MDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3768,902509&dq=jari+kurri&hl=en

The Great One's artistry, Kurri's speed, his accuracy and his defensive skill

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar...d+to+be+perfect+for+Gretzky+line&pqatl=google

Kurri had learned to read him like a book. It seemed he always knew where to go. The puck would be waiting or about to arrive, a shipment from Wayne.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar...sc=Sather's+worst+fears+realized&pqatl=google
 
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Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
19,102
7,528
Orillia, Ontario
Richard and Moore going right before me really threw a wrench into things, you know?

I suppose I'll take a guy who I've always wanted to reasearch. Luckily, he's also one of the BPAs. Even more luckily, he plays a position I still need to fill. I guess it worked out well enough.

Vladislav Tretiak
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,284
7,552
Regina, SK
I just love when I read a post and my first thought is, "I have an answer for all of that." :nod:

Yeah because I've never seen you make the argument that a player can benefit from having other players take the top checkers off them (as an example)

And somehow this proves that being on a better team makes you score more points? :help:

I guess that more than one line on the Bruins wouldn't benefit from having Orr play half the game? or that the same effect (to a lesser degree) would be true of many top defenseman across more than one line of forwards?

Orr is one of the top-3 players of all time and certainly the most dominant on a per-game basis. Why use the outlier of outliers as an example?

Regardless, yes it can be said (and is true) that a number of players scored more thanks to Orr. What they didn't do, however, is score more because they were on Boston.

A great goaltender can't benefit how the whole team plays?

Yes, and he makes their offensive stats better too! :sarcasm:

The question is though.. how much can a certain individual (Like Orr for sure) take of the credit for the team being better? I think I can safely say that many Bruins during Orrs day had better totals simply because they were on Orrs team.. wouldn't you?

Orr takes probably more credit for his team being strong, than any other player in history. A lot of players owe their best offensive totals to him... not to Boston!


I believe exactly what I said: he was used differently and started transitioning his game to a more defensive one in line with the team goals.

Unless you're really going to tell me he went from being a 78 point scorer in 93-94 to a guy on pace for 38 in one year.

He certainly wasn't washed up at that point so I don't get how you're going to argue that.

I think that is a stretch
.

There was clearly less of a focus on offense by him. But don't underestimate the impact that less PP time had on him. That had a lot to do with it too.

People paint it all with the same brush. And you'll have a hard time convincing me that the certain winger you are talking about had a lot of defensive shackles on him. He didn't.

Can't say I saw 100 Boston games from the 1980s, but the general perception is that the guy's much better than his scoring finishes because of his team's defensive mindset.


Only 12 defenseman in the history of hockey have 900+ points.

Only one defenseman who started his career since 1990 has over 900 points.

What is the standard here?

What is your point?

The Devils didn't spend that much time on the PP, so of course his PP time would drop even without any change in usage. He probably lost a minute of PP time just by being on the Devils, and of course the entire league spent less time on the PP during the dead puck era.

The Devils peak in number of PPs was at 90.1% of the league average, and 78.4% of the league high during his Devils career.

PP *next lowest if Devils lowest
Year| Adv| Rnk| Low*| Avg| High| %ofLow*| %ofAvg| %ofHigh
87-88| 479| 3| 347| 437| 500| 138.0| 109.6| 95.8
88-89| 466| 2| 334| 403| 491| 139.5| 115.6| 94.9
89-90| 337| 20| 330| 367| 442| 102.1| 91.8| 76.2
90-91| 347| t15| 317| 366| 403| 109.5| 94.8| 86.1
91-92| 338| 22| 339| 402| 467| 99.7| 84.1| 72.4
92-93| 400| 23| 399| 443| 510| 100.3| 90.1| 78.4
93-94| 333| 26| 369| 407| 459| 90.2| 81.8| 72.5
94-95| 164| 26| 172| 209| 259| 95.3| 78.5| 63.3
95-96| 368| 24| 356| 413| 477| 103.4| 89.1| 77.1
96-97| 288| 25| 287| 336| 406| 100.3| 85.7| 70.9
97-98| 333| 26| 350| 380| 483| 95.1| 87.6| 68.9
98-99| 304| 26| 301| 359| 438| 101.0| 84.7| 69.4
99-00| 274| 28| 287| 331| 377| 95.5| 82.8| 72.7
00-01| 310| 30| 318| 376| 435| 97.5| 82.4| 71.3
01-02| 261| 30| 283| 338| 391| 92.2| 77.2| 66.8
02-03| 303| 30| 308| 363| 420| 98.4| 83.5| 72.1
03-04| 312| 27| 300| 348| 426| 100.4| 89.7| 73.2
05-06| 439| 27| 411| 480| 541| 106.8| 91.5| 81.1

Here are the teams Stevens was on for the first 4 years of the table. Two of the %ofHigh are higher than the highest %ofAvg for his Devils years.

Year| Adv|Low*| Avg| High| %ofLow*| %ofAvg| %ofHigh
87-88| 437|347| 437| 500| 125.9| 100.0| 87.4
88-89| 443|334| 403| 491| 132.6| 109.9| 90.2
89-90| 412|330| 367| 442| 124.8| 112.3| 93.2
90-91| 348|317| 366| 403| 109.8| 95.1| 86.4

The Devils not getting a lot of PPs in general is a good case for why a player's PP point totals were lower while they were with New Jersey. But although I used a wider range of years, my point generally was that Stevens' PP usage dropped considerably after the 1994 season. And even if you isolate just the New Jersey years, it did: 3.8 minutes per game before, 1.4 minutes after. This coincided with his huge offensive drop. It partially explains it. That's all I'm saying.

I might have found a way to account for team differences for players.

I looked at only 2 years, 33-34 and 34-35, but here goes:

Seibert, 33-34, scored 23 points, his team scored 120 goals, so Seibert got in on roughly 19% of the Rangers' goals.

Clancy, 33-34, has 28 points (led the league in D scoring), Toronto scored 173 goals, so Clancy got in on 16% of the scoring.

The following year, Seibert scored 25 points, the Rangers had 138 goals, for an 18% goal involvement rate.

Clancy had 21 points on Toronto's 157 goals, for a 13% involvement rate. An undrafted player (probably one who nobody would hesitate to say was better than Seibert offensively), had 26 points for Toronto (~17%).

Both Clancy and Seibert were their team's defacto number 1s, so ice time differences should be negligible at best.

... Good god, Seibert led Chicago's defensemen in scoring in 35-36, despite playing only 15 games for them.

I looked at 42-43 and 43-44 to check out his offensive involvement, and it appeared to stay consistent from those earlier years.

In 42-43 Seibert's 32 points accounted for 18% of the team's 179 goals.
In 43-44, 19% (33 points to 178 goals).

Isn't this just the old "what percentage of a team's goals was a player involved in?" stat? It's always an interesting thing to see but it's rarely been considered a useful metric for anything. It favours a lot of guys who played on bad teams but it's easy to make the mistake that they would still participate in that percentage of offense on a team that scored more goals, and that's just not the case.

OK, so Seibert was basically Chicago's only good defenseman the entire time he was there. He regularly outscored every other defenseman on the team, and in a few cases, he outscored the rest of the D *COMBINED*. The most hilarious being in 42-43 and 43-44 where he outscored the rest of the D by 32-23 and 33-17 margins, respectively.

:amazed: Wow, I never realized how bad their defensive corps was these two seasons. In all, one AAA-level player played 13 games for them during these two seasons. that's the next-best guy after Seibert here.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
Isn't this just the old "what percentage of a team's goals was a player involved in?" stat? It's always an interesting thing to see but it's rarely been considered a useful metric for anything. It favours a lot of guys who played on bad teams but it's easy to make the mistake that they would still participate in that percentage of offense on a team that scored more goals, and that's just not the case.

Seibert did, though. In the two early 30's years, he contributed to roughly 18% of the offense, and in the two 40's years, where the team scored about 70 more goals, his contributions remained the same. So, this is a case where the player's contributions stayed consistent regardless of the amount of goals scored. That's a good thing, isn't it? I would also add that in every case, he was the team's leading point getter on defense.
 

BillyShoe1721

Terriers
Mar 29, 2007
17,252
6
Philadelphia, PA
It got to the point where Kurri was definitely BPA as far as I was concerned, and although I wanted Richard, I'm really happy with Beliveau and Kurri as 2/3 of a line. That is one dynamic duo right there. Dreak went with the guy I was also contemplating at that pick.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,987
Brooklyn
Jokerit selects C Peter Forsberg.

He was the only other guy I considered as Rocket Richard's center at this point. I think he peaked higher than Henri Richard, but I decided to take Henri's almost 20 years of consistently high level play over Forsberg's 10 years of sometimes slightly better play.... when healthy.

(Of course the fact that the Richards actually played together factored in my decision, as well).

One of my least favorite players of all time, but solid pick at this point.
 
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advantage2006

Registered User
Feb 4, 2006
288
0
Canada
Henri was one of the marquee forwards I was talkin about and he shou;d have went long before Mark Howe/Guy Lapointe etc. Great pick TDMM.
I agree.

I just didn't want my second line center yet. Wanted a defenseman and was worried the quality ones would be gone before my next selection.
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
15,241
4,458
Orr is one of the top-3 players of all time and certainly the most dominant on a per-game basis. Why use the outlier of outliers as an example?

Probably because the most extreme examples make the result easiest to see. In this case, very easy.. and you have brought up Orr's effect on the rest of his team yourself on several occasions.

Regardless, yes it can be said (and is true) that a number of players scored more thanks to Orr. What they didn't do, however, is score more because they were on Boston.

Nice dodge. Mr. "I have an answer for everything but lets split hairs to avoid admitting that teams do affect players". :nod:

In fact, yes, they did score more points because they were on Boston. Because Orr was on Boston. The logo on the front of the shirt is not the part of the team I am talking about, obviously.

Yes, and he makes their offensive stats better too! :sarcasm:

Again, there is no number for it. I know you hate that. But yes, a good goaltender lets players feel confident taking some extra risk.

Orr takes probably more credit for his team being strong, than any other player in history. A lot of players owe their best offensive totals to him... not to Boston!

Nice try, but again, Orr was playing for Boston.


There was clearly less of a focus on offense by him. But don't underestimate the impact that less PP time had on him. That had a lot to do with it too.

Yes, I know, that is what I said.

His role and his use by his coaches changed to suit the system they were implementing.

And apparently they also had fewer PP opportunities. But Stevens wasn't reliant on the PP for the majority of his offense in 94. He was on the ice for 153 TGF and only 38 PPGF.

I don't see his offensive ceiling changing a lot over one year like you tried to make the case for..


Can't say I saw 100 Boston games from the 1980s, but the general perception is that the guy's much better than his scoring finishes because of his team's defensive mindset.

I don't know how many Boston games I saw in the 80s off hand, but I am guessing more than you since I am older.. and where is this general perception tracked?

XXXXX wasn't really a two-way guy from my memory, just up and down the wing.. and his line was relied on to score.

What is your point?

My point is that you were saying his finishes would equate to him being among the top 13 offensive defensemen in point totals and I don't think anyone was trying to say he was at that level.

I am sure there are other early era defensemen who have a lot of high finishes that aren't held to that standard when we try to fast forward them to a modern setting for comparison.


The Devils not getting a lot of PPs in general is a good case for why a player's PP point totals were lower while they were with New Jersey. But although I used a wider range of years, my point generally was that Stevens' PP usage dropped considerably after the 1994 season. And even if you isolate just the New Jersey years, it did: 3.8 minutes per game before, 1.4 minutes after. This coincided with his huge offensive drop. It partially explains it. That's all I'm saying.

Actually you said:

1) Stevens was not capable of 70 points anymore even if he was getting PP time
2) Stevens' PP time dropped considerable after 1994 (frm 4.3 minutes per game 1987-1994, to 1.4 minutes per game 1995-2002) so much of his lower numbers wasn't due to him "buying into" anything at all, but the coach's usage. Unless you believe he got as much PP time as he asked for, and stopped asking

Point 1 is just wrong. Stevens wasn't washed up and didn't drop off that fast over one summer because he wasn't capable of offense any longer.

Point 2, also wrong. What he bought into was the change in the Devils team to become defense first & defense all the time.

Of Stevens 18 goals in '94 only 5 were powerplay, 1 short handed. Furthermore, he was only on the ice for 38 powerplay goals while on for 153 TGF and he had 78 points.. so his reduction in PP time is very partially to do with the drop.

The drop in opportunities was part of the drop in minutes and I think the changing mentality of his team and his role in it was responsible for much more of his drop based on his numbers.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Stevens was definitely capable of being a 70 point defenseman after 1994. But... he wasn't capable of being a 70 point defenseman while being as dominant defensively as he became. It was a conscience decision (after being asked by his coaches) to forgo the offense to concentrate on being the most dominant defensive defenseman in the league.

Stevens rarely crossed from his own side of the red line at even strength, except to keep the puck in the zone when possession wasn't an issue.

He played kind of like a (hard hitting) safety in American football.

And judging from 3 Cups and 4 finals in the next 9 years, I'd say he made the right decision.

Edit: But they are right - Stevens was taken off of the Devils PP almost entirely after 93-94 to conserve all his energy for being a wrecking ball.
 

BraveCanadian

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It got to the point where Kurri was definitely BPA as far as I was concerned, and although I wanted Richard, I'm really happy with Beliveau and Kurri as 2/3 of a line. That is one dynamic duo right there. Dreak went with the guy I was also contemplating at that pick.

Yes, those two would be excellent together I think!
 
Jul 29, 2003
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That's a good point. I can't imagine that the quote is from anything other than shortly after the cup run, but KotI doesn't have a date for when the interview or whatever took place.

By the way, I imagine that the 1944 stuff was from when Chicago beat Detroit in 1944 playoffs, so I guess that was my fault. Sorry.

I could. Talking in the past tense like that could mean anything, from right after they won to decades later. I'm also not sure why he'd be telling someone about Seibert's ice time(basically never leaving the ice would've been noticed by anyone) right after. My first impression and best guess is that the quote came some time after the cup run.
 
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