ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I love the selection. On my (mental) list, Ted Kennedy is the third best playoff performer of All-Time. I've learned last draft that he was faster than I gave him credit for. A very versatile and complete hockey player.

I really don't see how you can possibly rank Kennedy over Gretzky, Roy, Beliveau, or Richard in the playoffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

the vancouver velocity select, the man many consider to be the greatest american born defensemen of all-time BRIAN LEETCH

20 goal mark broken 5 times
Calder Memorial Trophy (1989)
James Norris Memorial Trophy (1992, 1997)
Lester Patrick Award (2007)
NHL All-Rookie Team (1989)
NHL All-Star Game (1990, 1998, 2001, 2002)
NHL First All-Star Team (1992, 1997)
NHL Second All-Star Team (1991, 1994, 1996)

Damn, really thought he'd slip to #70 like he usually does. A lot of GMs here question his defensive game, but I really think it's underrated. He killed penalties at a comparable level to a typical #1 defenseman, definitely far moreso than Paul Coffey.

I think he's definitely in the Gadsby/Salming class. In fact, the only reason he's a step below Stevens and MacInnis in my opinion is that he had a much shorter prime.

Fun fact: Defensemen who averaged more than a point per game in the playoffs: Bobby Orr, Paul Coffey, Brian Leetch. That's it.

Context for the fun fact: Leetch's teams were awful in the 2nd half of his career, so he really didn't play in the playoffs after his prime. Still impressive though.

But I really don't see any one taking a step back and considering their full careers and taking Leetch over Chelios.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I really don't see how you can possibly rank Kennedy over Gretzky, Roy, Beliveau, or Richard in the playoffs.

Forgot about Patrick Roy. I have him over Jean Beliveau.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Forgot about Patrick Roy. I have him over Jean Beliveau.

I mean, I obviously haven't examined it closely at all, but I think the fact that Beliveau usually faced the opponent's best checkers has to be taken into account vs. Kennedy who was usually the "second line" center to either Syl Apps or Max Bentley?

On the other hand, Beliveau did have a few bad playoffs in the early 60s, when he didn't have a puck moving defensemen on the team.

 

[Sturminator]

Damn, really thought he'd slip to #70 like he usually does. A lot of GMs here question his defensive game, but I really think it's underrated. He killed penalties at a comparable level to a typical #1 defenseman, definitely far moreso than Paul Coffey.

Yeah, but Leetch's Rangers teams had a pretty average penalty kill, if I remember correctly. The PK minutes he played reveal, I think, more New York's lack of good material on defense than they do Leetch's greatness as a penalty killer. I don't know if he should be on an ATD first pairing PK.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I mean, I obviously haven't examined it closely at all, but I think the fact that Beliveau usually faced the opponent's best checkers has to be taken into account vs. Kennedy who was usually the "second line" center to either Syl Apps or Max Bentley?

On the other hand, Beliveau did have a few bad playoffs in the early 60s, when he didn't have a puck moving defensemen on the team.

Interesting note.

When Bentley and Kennedy were on the Leafs together. Bentley not only outscored Kennedy in the playoffs, he also improved his playoff PPG over his regular season PPG more...

 

[jkrx]

Damn, really thought he'd slip to #70 like he usually does. A lot of GMs here question his defensive game, but I really think it's underrated. He killed penalties at a comparable level to a typical #1 defenseman, definitely far moreso than Paul Coffey.

I think he's definitely in the Gadsby/Salming class. In fact, the only reason he's a step below Stevens and MacInnis in my opinion is that he had a much shorter prime.

Fun fact: Defensemen who averaged more than a point per game in the playoffs: Bobby Orr, Paul Coffey, Brian Leetch. That's it.

Context for the fun fact: Leetch's teams were awful in the 2nd half of his career, so he really didn't play in the playoffs after his prime. Still impressive though.

But I really don't see any one taking a step back and considering their full careers and taking Leetch over Chelios.

Did he still get a lot of PK time after they brought XXXX in? Seems odd to give him lots of time on the PK when they had XXX XXX XXX and XXX.

I wouldn't put his defense in Salming class though but that could be just me.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Did he still get a lot of PK time after they brought xxx in? Seems odd to give him lots of time on the PK when they had xxx, xxx, xxx and xxx.
I wouldn't put his defense in Salming class though but that could be just me.

Thank you.

 

[jkrx]

Thank you.

Yes, abit of mistake from my part.. can you edit out the other name in your quote?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gah, I was really considering Leetch as well, and just missed him.

With my 2nd overall pick the Guelph Platers select the strangely underrated member of the Big 3:

Guy Lapointe

Nice having a bomb from the point for the PP too.

 

[nik jr]

a couple of interesting things i found:

There has been talk of shifting Howe to defense, and (coach) was asked about that.

"That's where he'll finish up, and we've been playing him there a lot this season," (coach) admitted. "But we're not thinking of moving him back permanently as yet."

In the kind of hockey they're playing today, a defenseman has to be almost as mobile as a forward. The only reason the Wings would move Howe back is because he'd slowed up a little. Right?

"Yes, but Gordie isn't an ordinary hockey player," (coach) explained. "He can afford to be a step slow back there because he won't make the mistakes many defensemen make. Other guys have to be fast to cover up their original mistakes."

The average big league hockey player lasts 10 years. If he's a top-notcher, he'll make around $10000 a year, and he plays for only 4 and 1/2 months each year. There is no minimum salary in our league, but the average is $4500.

 

[Nighthawks]

With the 67th pick in the 2011 ATD the New Haven Nighthawks select, Andy Bathgate, RW.

 

[EagleBelfour]

With the 67th pick in the 2011 ATD the New Haven Nighthawks select, Andy Bathgate, RW.

Very nice pick. He could of been talk with the very best if it was not for his knee injury in junior. I'll need a little convincing on his playoff record, but you've got a very scary offensive weapon.

 

[Dreakmur]

With the 67th pick in the 2011 ATD the New Haven Nighthawks select, Andy Bathgate, RW.

That's exactly why I wanted your pick

 

[Dreakmur]

Very nice pick. He could of been talk with the very best if it was not for his knee injury in junior. I'll need a little convincing on his playoff record, but you've got a very scary offensive weapon.

Bathgate is an absolute moster in the regular season. During his prime, he went head to head with both Gordie Howe and Jean Belivuea, and he scored at a very similar pace despite playing on a crappy team with very little support.

In the play-offs, Bathgate suffered quite a bit from playing on a terrible team. He played in the play-offs 7 times, and only 2 ould be considered bad performances. He only got out of the 1st round twice, and he was among the play-off scoring leaders both times. While his career points average does go down in the play-offs, his career goal average goes up. Overall, I would agree that he was slightly better in the regular season, but I'd never call him a poor play-off performer.

 

[arrbez]

He was definately a great offensive defenseman and he was definately a great open ice hitter.

Aside from his unknown defensive abilities, I would also be concerned about his below average skating.

I don't really have concerns about Gadsby's defensive game. The only quotes I've ever seen talking about his defensive game make it sound pretty good. I'm sure he wasn't Doug Harvey or Tim Horton out there, but there are a number of quotes saying he was good at both ends of the ice (and none to the contrary, that I've seen).

What we know for sure about Bill Gadsby:

-He was dominant offensively
-He was a major physical presence
-He was an elite shot blocker

I think everyone can agree on those points, and there are plenty of stats and anecdotes to back that up.

Outside of that, most bios mention that he was good at both ends of the rink. I think we can probably take that for what it is. He wasn't a great defensive player ala Harvey or Horton, but he was a good one. With everything else he brings to the table, I think that's plenty. I can't drop names here, but I imagine his game to be very comparable to a recent elite-level defenseman, but with better offense (pm if you want to know who).

One thing I've gleaned from quotes and bios about him is that his coaches (particularly in New York) liked him playing a very aggressive game. I'm sure that didn't help his defensive game in New York. By contrast, I've heard nothing but praise about his defense in Detroit, where he was used as much more of a stay-at-home guy. For what it's worth, I've seen two different first-hand accounts of his excellent playoff performances with Detroit. Haven't read anything about his playoff work in New York, but his stats at least indicate that he lived up to his billing at the offensive end of the ice.

In terms of his skating, I've seen a lot of conflicting reports. I've seen him referred to as a great skater, and I've seen him called a slow skater. The impression I get is that he lost a lot of speed at the end of his career when he became a stay-at-home guy in Detroit. So at different times he was both, I guess.

BTW, did anyone else know that Bill Gadsby played through polio in his mid-20's?

 

[Dreakmur]

Here's the Andy Bathgate bio.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=30628797&postcount=25

I was surprised to see how many sources there are that say he was actually tough. I always thought he was kind of soft, but I guess not.

 

[Dreakmur]

What we know for sure about Bill Gadsby:

-He was dominant offensively
-He was a major physical presence
-He was an elite shot blocker

I think everyone can agree on those points, and there are plenty of stats and anecdotes to back that up.

I'd say he was a good shot blocker rather than an elite one, but perhaps you'll show enough evidence to change my mind.

Otherwise I'd agree.

 

[Dwight]

Here's the Andy Bathgate bio.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=30628797&postcount=25

I was surprised to see how many sources there are that say he was actually tough. I always thought he was kind of soft, but I guess not.

No way, man. Brother was a fighter for sure

 

[BenchBrawl]

Gah, I was really considering Leetch as well, and just missed him.

With my 2nd overall pick the Guelph Platers select the strangely underrated member of the Big 3:

Guy Lapointe

Nice having a bomb from the point for the PP too.

YES! I'm proud of you , I'm the biggest Lapointe fan there is.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Damn, really thought he'd slip to #70 like he usually does. A lot of GMs here question his defensive game, but I really think it's underrated. He killed penalties at a comparable level to a typical #1 defenseman, definitely far moreso than Paul Coffey.

I think he's definitely in the Gadsby/Salming class. In fact, the only reason he's a step below Stevens and MacInnis in my opinion is that he had a much shorter prime.

I was considering picking Leetch but I don't think he's a fantastic defensive guy by any means. He was competent enough in his own zone for sure, and his skating was outstanding and that helped him a lot in some situations.

MacInnis definitely has a defensive edge on Leetch in my opinion.

No slight on Leetch though.. having a guy who is reasonable-to-good in his own zone and one of the top peak offensive defensemen ever is a pretty damn good overall guy.

Fun fact: Defensemen who averaged more than a point per game in the playoffs: Bobby Orr, Paul Coffey, Brian Leetch. That's it.

Helps when 2/3 didn't play many playoff games past their prime.

Coffey is the clear winner as a defenseman playoff point producer in my book.

Orr was done by 26 and Leetch only had one playoff year after 28.

Full marks to both of them for producing tons from the blueline when they were in the playoffs though. Definitely a point in their favour.

But I really don't see any one taking a step back and considering their full careers and taking Leetch over Chelios.

Agreed for sure.

Chelios was so much better defensively over such a long time that Leetch's higher peak offensively doesn't match it over their careers.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Salming as a Red Wing? Blasphemy! Very good pick - I love how good he was at both ends of the ice.

Salming was one tough hombre too.

Super fit for his era as well.

 

[jarek]

can you give me a source?

i was just reading something where the coach "was particular in his praise" for the goalie, though it was partly b/c the goalie was injured. 2 other goalies played games. alfie moore apparently was very good in game 1, and was mentioned as the star of the game along with a couple of F's. i read that moore may have been drunk before the game (he was pulled out of a pub before the game) and that he was declared ineligible for game 2. paul goodman was in net for game 2 (1-5 loss), played poorly, and was apparently also declared ineligible after the game.

i am reading game reports, which are mostly short, and seibert is generally not mentioned. i am not seeing anything that would lead me to think seibert carried chicago. i should find some longer reports from bigger papers.

TML's D was apparently not very good, other than in game 2. montreal gazette said after the series ended that chicago had "great defensive tactics," and described their checking as "ceaseless." "once they had the lead, hawks didn't take an unnecessary chance."

3-14-1938 calgary daily herald said after the finals ended that "veterans carried the brunt of the playoff burden," but does not name seibert.

Read the bio, it's in the bio thread.

Seibert is a steal to get him where he did - though building your team around him is pretty rough as a #1 pick.

It was either him or Horton for me at #41, Pronger and Cleghorn weren't on my radar.

I disagree, I don't see why Seibert is hard to build around. He was excellent in every facet of the game, except perhaps on the power play (hoping overpass can shed some light on that).

I get that feeling about him, too, and I find it strange that Seibert was only once a 1st team all-star before the war years took their toll. I mean...losing out to Eddie Shore or Clancy (early in his career) is understandable, but even after Shore's star had faded (39-40 and 40-41), Seibert just couldn't get over the hump, losing 1st team spots to Clapper and a couple of guys who haven't been drafted yet, one of whom won't be drafted for a long time.

Given Seibert's...ahem...consistency in being the 3rd or 4th best defenseman in the league, I think it's only safe to assume that he continued that level of play when the NHL's defensive corps was gutted during WWII. His final three 1st team all-star awards, then, I can only in good conscience credit as being about the value of a 2nd team award, and I consider that rather charitable, as the level of competition for all-star spots on defense sank precipitously (seriously...look at the other all-stars in 41-42).

Seibert looks like a fine value at 60th overall, and was one of the last remaining cornerstone defensemen, making it a worthwhile trade for you to get into the tier before it dried up (and it did quite quickly). People overpay for #1 defensemen in this thing for a reason. Don't get caught without one. At any rate, I find Seibert's placement after Cleghorn/Clancy and before Gadsby/Salming quite appropriate, and not out of line with the value that all of the GMs drafting defensemen in this tier have gotten.

Sounds reasonable. He never could quite get ahead of those other guys, and I think his disputes about money are the primary reasons why, but regardless, he did make it to 10 all star teams in a row, and there's something to be said for that.

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm going to be out for most of today, and I'm 5 picks away.

Anyoe going to be around want to take a list?

 

[papershoes]

The player is available, so the trade is going though. papershoes list-picks Ted Kennedy

I'll PM the next GM.

thanks for making my pick...

definitely excited to select kennedy. was he the bpa at this stage, maybe not but, i definitely place him in the tier of players coming to a close. in my opinion, he's a player that can do everything and, joins the team as one of the best playoff performers of all-time. in my opinion, he probably wouldn't have lasted until my original pick at 75 so, i felt the need to snag him now.

eddie shore and kennedy bios coming shortly (when i can find some time)...