ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

[nik jr]

This doesn't make sense to me. How?

Most players of his vintage were slowing down (offensively at least) by 30ish at that time regardless of where they played or were coached.

I don't think Russian coaches had any more to do with it than the Canadiens coaches did for Lafleur or Al Arbour did for Trottier etc.

It's true, a lot of offensive guys from the 1980's didn't do much after age 30 either. Who knows, maybe something was in the water back then?

But I don't think there's any doubt that the Russians trained harder than NHLers, and I think they went at it for 10 or 11 months of the year. Maybe their training had nothing to do with it at all? But at any rate, the end results were still the same.

MS has talked often about that in the history section. few NHL players in the '70s and '80s played at a high level after 30-32. iirc, MS has speculated that it is related to the large changes in the NHL (shorter shifts, better training, butterfly goaltending, increased emphasis on D), and improved levels of talent.

i will try to find some of those comments.

this is definitely a topic that deserves much more debate.

 

[seventieslord]

It's true, a lot of offensive guys from the 1980's didn't do much after age 30 either. Who knows, maybe something was in the water back then?

But I don't think there's any doubt that the Russians trained harder than NHLers, and I think they went at it for 10 or 11 months of the year. Maybe their training had nothing to do with it at all? But at any rate, the end results were still the same.

superstar players who started in the 1980-1984 range though, played seemingly forever, for whatever reason.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The Soviet hockey program considered all members of the Green Unit to be over the hill when they left the USSR to play in the NHL. It's why they were allowed to leave (in exchange for payment to the USSR hockey program), to make way for the new generation. The new generation had to defect to come over.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Yeah, and geez, look at our avatars.

Won't someone please think of the children!?

A name is more identifiable and clear than a picture in a lot of cases, and there really aren't that many with avatars of undrafteds.

 

[BraveCanadian]

A name is more identifiable and clear than a picture in a lot of cases, and there really aren't that many with avatars of undrafteds.

Maybe, but the irony was fun for me.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Maybe, but the irony was fun for me.

Well it isn't for everyone else. Perhaps you don't care much for the no undrafted players rule, but I think a lot more people do, and we do live in a democracy.

 

[arrbez]

Well it isn't for everyone else. Perhaps you don't care much for the no undrafted players rule, but I think a lot more people do, and we do live in a democracy.

I believe we also live in a constitutional monarchy. I think we need the Queen to weigh in on this issue

 

[Leafs Forever]

I believe we also live in a constitutional monarchy. I think we need the Queen to weigh in on this issue

The only real power the Queen has it that her picture is always watching you

 

[matsblue13]

The Niagara City Blues will pick...Mats Sundin

I don't know if it's to early to pick him, but it'd be sacrilegious if I didn't draft him.

Arguably the most consistent player of all time. Captained the 2006 Gold Medal winning Swedish team (Game winning assist).

8x All Star

Made the All-Second team twice

Top Ten in GWG in a season 7 TIMES

Captained the Toronto Maple Leafs for eleven years

Longest serving non-North American captain in NHL history

Excluding his rookie year, and the 94 lockout, registered 70 points every year he played

Led his team in points every year but once (12 years)

Leaf's franchise leader in Goals and Points

First Swede to score 500 and tied for most regular season overtime goals ever

Three gold medals with Sweden at World Champs

1st European drafted 1st overall

20th in all time goals (tied with his buddy Niewundyk), 32nd in assists and 25th in points

Only 2 players have scored 20 goals in there first 16 season. Him and Dionne

The reason I fell in love with this sport and the reason I'm a Leaf fan for life. You often love an athlete for what he does on the ice, but Mats excelled off it too. There are so many elements of his game that I can go on and on about, but this isn't a Mats Sundin appreciation thread. For purposes of this draft, a great powerplay piece, a solid face off man and also a more than legitimate captain and leader for this team.

Looking at the Leafs now, with Phaneuf as our "captain" and Kessel as our "key" forward, I think sometimes Leafs fans took Mats for granted.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

haha

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

Does anyone else get a vibe that this guy is dwight from LC?

 

[Leafs Forever]

I don't know if it's to early to pick him, but it'd be sacrilegious if I didn't draft him.

I'll answer that question for you. I think it was way too early, and I think that my view is likely shared by the majority of the other GMs, though I could be wrong on that.

A big suggestion- if you really want a guy, look up his previous draft positions and figure out what pick would be ideal to secure him. You want to draft Mats Sundin- that's cool. Acquire/use a pick much closer to his usual and more suited draft position.

I'm a Leafs and Sundin fan myself, but one must shove these things somewhat aside if one seeks to build a good, well-researched team in this. You can't show too much bias for your heroes or else you'll take them too soon and be too concerned with them as opposed to building/researching.

And I really suggest you research available guys more rather than merely looking at a resume and saying "Alright, he has a good resume, I'll pick him." Really, really compare it to resume's of other guys still available.

Does anyone else get a vibe that this guy is dwight from LC?

Can't say I do. dwight is more vocal, and he made a rather silent and not too bad pick in Macinnis.

 

[Leaf Lander]

sundin traditionally doesn't go before pick 100 but it' s your team and i strongly suggest you read some past drafts

 

[hfboardsuser]

sundin traditionally doesn't go before pick 100 but it' s your team and i strongly suggest you read some past drafts

LOL, when LL thinks you took a Maple Leaf too high, you're in trouble.

 

[Hedberg]

A big suggestion- if you really want a guy, look up his previous draft positions and figure out what pick would be ideal to secure him. You want to draft Mats Sundin- that's cool. Acquire/use a pick much closer to his usual and more suited draft position.

Exactly.

mb13, 99% chance you could have got him with your 4th pick, perhaps even your 5th pick. He went 186th last time. Many of us have made similar "mistakes", so don't worry too much about it.

 

[jkrx]

The NHL is about 50% Canadian now, was effectively 100% in the 1960s (with an American here or there). If the 20th best player in the world was as good in 1960 as the 20th best player today, that's like saying the 20th best Canadian in 1960 is as good as the 10th best Canadian today, on average.



If you just look at Stevens when he was on the Devils, he's also one of the very few "10/10s" defensively IMO. Of course, he provided very little offense with the Devils. More well-rounded earlier in his career, but I think the elite defensive version was more of an impact player.

I'm in the minority here who would take Stevens over MacInnis, but it's close.

No shortage of leadership on jkrx's team with both Stevens and Yzerman in the fold. Now the only question: Which one do you make captain?

Yzerman gets to be captain of the team, Stevens will captain the defense.

 

[Leaf Lander]

arguably mats is a first line center so he would fit into a slot on his team but his next pick better be a steal to make things more even for his team

 

[BenchBrawl]

wow he must really like Sundin ( his nickname says it all )

 

[BraveCanadian]

LOL, when LL thinks you took a Maple Leaf too high, you're in trouble.

I wouldn't have picked him either, but I'm all for people shaking things up.

I know a few people had their eyes on Pronger moving up and he did.

Try different things.. otherwise you might as well just copy the list from the last draft and save everyone the trouble. Especially if you are like me and hit submit before checking for names and get sworn at and accused of not upholding democracy.

I don't even like Sundin that much and I'd have a hard time saying he can't compete with many of the players selected so far..

He might not win of course but he isn't a horrible pick by any means.



PS: democracy is the worst form of government, except for the others we've tried. God save the Queen.

 

[hfboardsuser]

I wouldn't have picked him either, but I'm all for people shaking things up.

I know a few people had their eyes on Pronger moving up and he did.

Try different things.. otherwise you might as well just copy the list from the last draft and save everyone the trouble. Especially if you are like me and hit submit before checking for names and get sworn at and accused of not upholding democracy.

I don't even like Sundin that much and I'd have a hard time saying he can't compete with many of the players selected so far..

He might not win of course but he isn't a horrible pick by any means.



PS: democracy is the worst form of government, except for the others we've tried. God save the Queen.

I don't mind a shakeup, but there is no way Sundin is a top 50-60 player in history. If he really wanted a legendary Leaf so bad, there were numerous other options available that would have facilitated reaching only 20-30 picks. I could buy doing so for any of those players, especially when it comes to positional scarcity or intangibles. But Sundin? Not a chance.

 

[seventieslord]

ok, quick vote, who wants to let matsblue have a mulligan on this one?

 

[hfboardsuser]

ok, quick vote, who wants to let matsblue have a mulligan on this one?

I was just going to recommend that. I think it's fair- we all knew that guy was in play, and this is really about learning. No one else has picked since so there's no harm done if he wants to change it. I've already sent him a handful of guys who I think would be solid picks.

 

[Leaf Lander]

sure if he can pick within 15 min Time Clock

 

[Hedberg]

ok, quick vote, who wants to let matsblue have a mulligan on this one?

I was thinking of suggesting that as well although I worry a bit a precedent of "canonizing" the list.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't mind a shakeup, but there is no way Sundin is a top 50-60 player in history. If he really wanted a legendary Leaf so bad, there were numerous other options available that would have facilitated reaching only 20-30 picks. I could buy doing so for any of those players, especially when it comes to positional scarcity or intangibles. But Sundin? Not a chance.

I don't think Sundin is a top 50-60 either..

I'm just saying let the guy have fun having his all time favourite player, and at the same time learning why he shouldn't have had him yet.

No wonder new blood is needed in these things.