ATD 2011 Draft Thread II
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markrander87
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- Jan 22, 2010
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Everybody keeps telling me his "Dominant offense was dried up"(By age 31?) but nobody has shown any Power Play offensive proof whatsoever.
Failing to see your point, Alex Semin has never led his team in PIMS.....
here is his scoring ranking in the soviet league:
Points – 4th(1984), 7th(1987), 8th(1986)
Points among Defensemen – 1st(1978), 1st(1979), 1st(1980), 1st(1981), 1st(1982), 1st(1984), 1st(1986), 1st(1987), 1st(1988), 2nd(1983), 2nd(1985), 5th(1989).
I guess in his prime he was good enough offencively.
Again, he adjusted to North america, but he sacrificed his offencive game and coaches don't tend to play defencive defencemen on PP.
What I'm trying to say is that fans more cared about, what they on the ice rather on the scoresheet. And "the best" stands for "most talented" rather than "most accomplished".
jarek
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- Aug 15, 2009
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You claimed that Kharlamov leading his team in PIMs in the Summit Series makes him gritty. Semin is third on WSH in PIMs, he has more than OV.. is he gritty?
do you understand that he started with CSKA with 16, so by the age of 31 he had 15 seasons behind him. And that were 11 month season. Russian coaches still love ground training, which is much harder than 82-games season.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
OK, but that's not what I'm saying. I don't think that 20th then = 20th now. It's probably closer to 12th=20th, but globally speaking. the nationality piece is irrelevant to me.
Forgive me if that answer made no sense; I might be still trying to grasp your point.
I definitely rank Fetisov ahead, and it's not at all because he played in the NHL and Kharlamov didn't. A lot of the points against Kharlamov have already been discussed and I won't get into them. But fans love style and Fetisov wasn't about style. The ATD is one place where the value of an awesome defenseman is just not underestimated.
1. Yes, this group of ATD GMs does more research than those guys. It is fair to say that by now. And none of those voters could have possibly seen Frank Nighbor play, except for Milt Dunnell, as a youngster, at the tail end of his career.
2. that list is NHL-only so it ignores his NHA-leading 1917 season and his outstanding 1915 in the PCHA, and his other years weren't too shabby either.
I still agree.
Yeah but all goalies are crazy, aren't they?
I mean except XXXX who seems relatively well adjusted but everyone says he sucks.
XXXX - cocaine.
Patrick Roy - showboater and talked to his goalposts among others.
XXXX - offering a cop a billion dollar bribe (this is a good one!)
Sawchuk - family problems, mental problems.. drinking too I think?
Glenn Hall - threw up before every game (it was Hall that supposedly did this right?)
.
.
.
Yes, absolutely. You could add Plante's reclusiveness, hypochondria and knitting, Hasek's supposed injury faking and coach killing, Brodeur's marital stuff and Dryden being flighty and more or less disinterested in hockey as a career, and pretty much the whole top-10 goalies aren't model citizens or are flaky/quirky.
This can't be a coincidence.
well said.
come on.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
the amount of times he led the Soviet league defense in scoring is a really good start. Obviously we are never going to get PP stats from that league but it should be enough. Not to mention everyone in NA saw him play in the worlds and canada cups during the 80s and he was more or less considered Bourque's equal, at his best.
markrander87
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jarek
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He had 7 points in 9 games (1 goal, 3 assists on the PP) at the 87 Canada Cup and 8 points in 7 games (1 goal, 3 assists on the PP) in the 81 Canada Cup.
In 1981, he was 8th in tournament scoring and 2nd amongst defencemen (to an undrafted team mate). In 1987, he was 7th in tournament scoring and 2nd in defence scoring behind Bourque.
thanks. I think it ends this discussion.
The green Unit's main strength was the ability to cycle the puck in the offencive zone, they could make ES-situation look like it was power play, I have no concers about Fetisov's ability to run PP.
Velociraptor
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Look, I know you're angry about the undrafteds thing, but the people making the mistakes are newbies. It's understandable that every once in a while names are dropped...it just isn't habit yet to censor out names. As a vet GM, try and set a better example, unless your post was by accident, in which case I apologize.
Velociraptor
Registered User
I'll be in class until 2 ET tomorrow, hopefully I'll be on the clock by then. I'm not gonna bother leaving a list, I'll check the thread in the morning in case it gets very close to me. But I'm yet to make a decision between a couple of players. Hopefully some GM's picking before me can help me shorten the list.
overpass
Registered User
The Ottawa Senators are pleased to select
2000 Hart Trophy Winner
Second best player of the 00s (according to Senators GM overpass)
3-time Conn Smythe Trophy Finalist (according to Senators GM overpass)
A dominant shutdown defenceman who makes a great first pass, can run a power play, and has been among the best playoff performers in the world.
Chris Pronger, D
2000 Hart Trophy Winner
Second best player of the 00s (according to Senators GM overpass)
3-time Conn Smythe Trophy Finalist (according to Senators GM overpass)
A dominant shutdown defenceman who makes a great first pass, can run a power play, and has been among the best playoff performers in the world.
Chris Pronger, D
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
No one that we can talk about right now.
Which is why him being 1st in scoring 8 years in a row isn't nearly as impressive as if he did that in the NHL... which only Coffey and Orr ever did. But as I've said and as a few others have said, that should be enough to make him a good enough ATD quarterback.
I must have missed something; why are you going after Fetisov anyway?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Way higher than he's ever gone before (I think), but I like the pick. In my mind he belongs in this tier of defensemen. He's a guy who can do everything out there, and he's really put his spotty reputation as a young player way in the past now. Clearly the second-best defenseman of his generation in my eyes, and a guy whose Allstar selections really don't do him justice. I can't understand how Chris Pronger has only one First Team selection, and only four selections total. Some unfortunate timing and injuries IMO.
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imo, it is fine to pick macinnis over chelios.I still think I'd flip a coin over MacInnis and Chelios.
Maybe cause they also own hotels and are afraid Chelios will trash rooms?
Seriously, Chelios was a bonehead for the first 2/3rds of his career lol... great great player but lots of stupid penalties and behaviour. I'll take Big Bird any day over Chelios as great as he was..
i agree that chelios took too many bad penalties and did some stupid things. when chelios played smarter, he was about the best i have seen defensively.
i also have not seen that it, but i have not read very much on richard.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=869257What revelations? Is it too late to change my pick?
(Seriously, though, what revelations are you referring to? I just picked him because he was a phenomenal puckstopper).
basically benedict's alcoholism may have cost ottawa a chance to defend the cup in '24.
but he was goalie for 3 of their cups, and another with the maroons in '26.
i also found that even though benedict allowed a huge number of goals in the 1915 finals, he actually played fairly well.
soviet style of play also was more about effective units rather than individuals.
how much do you know about nighbor, or are you just relying on THN?
i don't see any reason THN has great credibility. imo, most of their lists are not very good in their rankings of players who played in the same era. imo, THN's top 60 since 67 was terrible.
every time they publish a top ___ list, many posters in both the history forum and the NHL forum ridicule the rankings.
yzerman was 78th on the '98 top 100 list, 28th among post-expansion players, but by late '07, rose to 7th best since expansion, ahead of bourque, hasek, lafleur, potvin, jagr, trottier, clarke, esposito, lidstrom, etc.
sakic, who was very comparable, was ranked 20th.
1 player who played entirely after expansion, was rated 54th among players of all eras on the top 100 list (22nd among post-expansion players), but did not appear on the top 60 since 67 list, even though he added to his career after '98.
top 60 since 67 also ranked a 2nd year player above a future HHOFer who won the hart, pearson and was a big part of 3 cups. also ranked a career 2nd liner who may not make HHOF ahead of a future HHOFer who won multiple vezinas and was a vezina finalist several more times.
i would bet that i researched nighbor more than THN's panel did. i read literally hundreds of newspaper reports that spanned about 50 years.
THN ranked several of nighbor's teammates above him, (probably based only on stats) even though it is very clear from reports from the time and from later years and also from hart voting that nighbor was superior.
markrander87
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- Jan 22, 2010
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Even before I picked Robinson, I was baffled on why Fetisov is placed infront of him.
Fetisov get's way too much credit for non-Nhl accomplishments. He played on a stacked CSKA Moscow team and finished Top scorer in defenseman for a league with such small competiton against him.
If the roles were reversed would Fetisov have a better career and legacy then Robinson if he played for the Habs? Would he of had the all-time best plus minus?
This BS about getting adjusted to the NA game doesn't cut it, his best year offensively was his first year in the NHL.
crap
i was hoping to get pronger. imo, pronger is very much underrated both here and in norris and all star voting.
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