At 6th Overall the Red Wings Take Filip Zadina

[Steve Yzerlland]

You sure about that?

Yeah why not? Just because he sucks now doesn't mean I want him to fail. Don't have much faith in him being the player we hoped in 2018 though.

 

[jaster]

He's a poor man's Gagner.

So far... yeah. Interesting comparison, hadn't considered it. Both 6 overall picks too. Similar size. Offensive ability with low-ish point totals to show for it. Both decent defensively. By no means identical, but there are similarities, and they have almost the same level impact on the game.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

So far... yeah. Interesting comparison, hadn't considered it. Both 6 overall picks too. Similar size. Offensive ability with low-ish point totals to show for it. Both decent defensively. By no means identical, but there are similarities, and they have almost the same level impact on the game.

This is depressingly true.

 

[Gniwder]

The thing is, if he's playing like a 3rd line winger, he should be a 3rd line winger.

Instead we're constantly having discussions of "we should put him on the first line to get his confidence up" and "we should move Seider down to the 2nd PP to get Zadina going"

Nobody's ever trying to find ways to do favors for Adam Erne and Mitchell Stephens to inflate their stats.

or Gagner who was also a #6 OA pick.

No reason to move him up if he keeps shooting worse than Helm.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

This is depressingly true.

And Gagner has never been the kind of player you win with.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

My issue with Zadina is the same issue I have with Rasmussen: pre-draft we expected an impact player and after years of a moving goal post we are left with "you can see he's really skilled sometimes"... neat.

At no point has any of our impact players needed this kind of hype train around them for the total absence of on ice results outside of literally the most egregious players we had and we're forced to move on from: Kindl, Smith, Jurco specifically comes to mind, Pulks, etc. Where we speak about these very subjective and ephemeral ideas that surround their value. That they just need a lucky break or that they are finally figuring it out. If we dug up old Jurco threads there were probably the exact same arguments being made right now verbatim. Zadina looks to be a fine hockey player and I'm sure he'll have a career but he's certainly not the "high end sniper" who could "step right into the national hockey league" that we drafted.

Which is fine, as long as he's generally on the same line and fulfills the same role, cap hit, etc. that would generally be afforded to a "sometimes really skilled guy". My issue is that he eats PP time or is out there eating into offensive opportunities that would otherwise go to someone else who...ya know...scores on occasion. If he wants to bomb around line 4 with Ras at sub 1M, fine. That is about what his play has thus merited at this point and that's perfectly alright.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

I can see Zadina becoming a 50pt, def. responsible 2RW pt.producer. With a ~55pt peak 1-3seasons. He's only 22 ffs. He likely won't be the sexy 6oa fill their nets sniper pick we were sold on, but we need 50+pt players too, every team does.

If (future) Zadina were a car: Reliable, consistent, useful, multi-dimensional, can haul some mail, but never pull a piano.

 

[deca guard]

I can see Zadina becoming a 50pt, def. responsible 2RW pt.producer. With a ~55pt peak 1-3seasons. He's only 22 ffs. He likely won't be the sexy 6oa fill their nets sniper pick we were sold on, but we need 50+pt players too, every team does.

If (future) Zadina were a car: Reliable, consistent, useful, multi-dimensional, can haul some mail, but never pull a piano.
View attachment 493401

oh no not the car thing again , ogee im going to kill you for that thread

 

[Henkka]

My issue with Zadina is the same issue I have with Rasmussen: pre-draft we expected an impact player.

Wrong expectations.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Wrong expectations.

It was reasonable at the time. It's not like they weren't lottery picks. No one expected them to look like fringe NHL players.

 

[Henkka]

It was reasonable at the time. It's not like they weren't lottery picks. No one expected them to look like fringe NHL players.

Against their age class, still doing pretty well.

Still the wrong expectations. NHL is not easy for young players.

 

[HisNoodliness]

It was reasonable at the time. It's not like they weren't lottery picks. No one expected them to look like fringe NHL players.

Against their age class, still doing pretty well.

Still the wrong expectations. NHL is not easy for young players.

I think that one should set their expectation based on the skillset the player shows in juniors. Zadina was dynamite in juniors so I'll be honest, he's been a disappointment relative to draft expectations for me.

Rasmussen on the other hand really never gave you any reason to expect anything more than this. He's tracking about as well as his skillset can. I'd say he's even exceeding my expectations a bit so far.

The problem I have with this whole narrative is that draft position couldn't be more irrelevant at this point. Try to make an argument that they're doing poorly without acknowledging they're top ten picks- you can't do it. By any metric they're decent players for their age. That's all that matters. They're both showing positive signs in both eye test and advanced stats. The counting stats aren't where we hope they can get. That's totally fine for players their age.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Against their age class, still doing pretty well.

Still the wrong expectations. NHL is not easy for young players.

Hopefully I'm very impatient. They don't look they will have a major game changing effect. I thought Zadina was a can't miss goal scorer based on the hype leading up the to the 2018 draft. I was actually shocked he fell to 6th. I think I know why now...

 

[Gniwder]

Hopefully I'm very impatient. They don't look they will have a major game changing effect. I thought Zadina was a can't miss goal scorer based on the hype leading up the to the 2018 draft. I was actually shocked he fell to 6th. I think I know why know...

It's absolutely amazing how little of his skills translated to the NHL. There's also a lack of hockey IQ that's concerning because he appears to be a very slow learner. Still trying the same things over and over despite a lack of success.

Raz is actually progressing faster right now and might wind up contributing more in the long run. At least he's built for a bottom 6 role.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

It's absolutely amazing how little of his skills translated to the NHL. There's also a lack of hockey IQ that's concerning because he appears to be a very slow learner. Still trying the same things over and over despite a lack of success.

Raz is actually progressing faster right now and might wind up contributing more in the long run. At least he's built for a bottom 6 role.

That's the most depressing part Ras is progressing faster. The only good thing is they are super young but I don't see it. Zadina looks soul crushed when he misses great scoring chances time after time.

 

[Gniwder]

That's the most depressing part Ras is progressing faster. The only good thing is they are super young but I don't see it. Zadina looks soul crushed when he misses great scoring chances time after time.

His skating hasn't improved at all either, whereas Raz has made some significant progress the last 2 seasons. If he doesn't make any progress, he's out of the league once he hits 30 and starts to slow down.

 

[Dotter]

Few former 6th overall picks:
Al Montoya
Gilbert Brule
Sam Gagner
Nikita Filatov
Brett Connolly
Jake Virtanen
Pavel Zacha
Cody Glass

And

Milan Michalek
Mika Zibanejad

Not every 6th overall pick can be Milan Michalek or Mika Zibanejad.

I think peoples' expectations were so high on Zadina is because fans never seen
Wings draft a 6th overall pick in their lifetime before. So if it's a 6th, then it has to be a main core piece above Dylan Larkin in the depth chart.

Looking at the history of 6th picks, people's expectations were to the moon.

 

[FMichael]

His skating hasn't improved at all either, whereas Raz has made some significant progress the last 2 seasons. If he doesn't make any progress, he's out of the league once he hits 30 and starts to slow down.

As I mentioned earlier in this topic - I've been critical of the guy for the same reasons others have been...That said these past few weeks leading up the postponement I've felt Zadina has looked incredibly more confident from where he was at the start of the season...Skating with the puck thru the neutral zone with speed, smart passing, sneaky back-checking - the guy has really put forth the effort and I for one have taken notice.

Now I'm still perplexed with his inaccuracy, but I'm hoping after his extended break we'll see him filling nets...I was all for moving him, but now I feel he might be worth more to us if we kept him...He may never live up to the expectation of being a top 6 forward, but we still need quality 3rd liners which just might be his niche.

 

[Ezekial]

And Gagner has never been the kind of player you win with.

What the hell is this even supposed to mean?

To this logic neither is McDavid.

I'm sure I can find you players similar to Gagner with their name on the cup .

 

[HisNoodliness]

What the hell is this even supposed to mean?

To this logic neither is McDavid.

I'm sure I can find you players similar to Gagner with their name on the cup .

I hate to say it but Ogee honestly has a point. In the playoffs the NHL burns the rulebook and we watch our wonderful sport turn into a wrestling match. McDavid can't elevate his team in the playoffs as well as the regular season because he can be cheated on actually every single possession and not have his opponents punished for it. There is 0 incentive to allow him to skate without hooking, slashing and holding him. We say "Yzerman was incredible for fighting through that" and thus expect McDavid to do the same. I wish Yzerman had gotten to play with a rulebook too. We were robbed of some of his best years because the NHL let his knees get destroyed.

So you have to make sure that your key contributors are just as good at rugby as hockey. Half the sport is rugby when it matters. Gagner is honestly fine to plug a hole in the bottom of the lineup. However until the NHL fixes the playoffs, you put yourself at a disadvantage in the playoffs if you have too many players like him on a team.

EDIT: just realized this is the Zadina thread so I'll just tag on that I'm happy to see Zadina diversifying his game for this very reason. He has been pushing into the harder areas more and that will serve him well in the playoffs.

 

[deca guard]

a thought about increased physicality in playoffs : even if the league were to call it stricter the players still go into ' the adrenaline zone ' for the playoffs and lay it all on the line , where as because of the marathon schedule they cant do so for 82 games . so many talented players can find lots of points regular season but get shut down in playoffs amongst the increased physicality . the lesson = build your team for the playoffs because regular season means zero . concerning mcdavid = coach is a fool if he dont put drysityl with him so that if the rats are biting mcd that drys can go on a rampage . make their line mcd-drys-that big crazy guy and be done with it

 

[newfy]

I hate to say it but Ogee honestly has a point. In the playoffs the NHL burns the rulebook and we watch our wonderful sport turn into a wrestling match. McDavid can't elevate his team in the playoffs as well as the regular season because he can be cheated on actually every single possession and not have his opponents punished for it. There is 0 incentive to allow him to skate without hooking, slashing and holding him. We say "Yzerman was incredible for fighting through that" and thus expect McDavid to do the same. I wish Yzerman had gotten to play with a rulebook too. We were robbed of some of his best years because the NHL let his knees get destroyed.

So you have to make sure that your key contributors are just as good at rugby as hockey. Half the sport is rugby when it matters. Gagner is honestly fine to plug a hole in the bottom of the lineup. However until the NHL fixes the playoffs, you put yourself at a disadvantage in the playoffs if you have too many players like him on a team.

EDIT: just realized this is the Zadina thread so I'll just tag on that I'm happy to see Zadina diversifying his game for this very reason. He has been pushing into the harder areas more and that will serve him well in the playoffs.

Yeah when I think of Patrick Kane the first thing I think of is his ability to play rugby. No wonder hes arguably the best playoff guy of his generation, built like an Offensive lineman really.

 

[jaster]

What the hell is this even supposed to mean?

To this logic neither is McDavid.

I'm sure I can find you players similar to Gagner with their name on the cup .

Hundreds.

I've always kinda hated the "you can't win with that type of player" rhetoric. There are Cup winning rosters with absolute slugs on them. It happens.

Are there types of players who give you a better chance to win? Sure. Are there types of players who give you a worse chance? Sure. Gagner? Fairly neutral on that spectrum. He's underszied, isn't rugged, and isn't made of pure offense, but he's industrious and a decent enough two-way player. Not someone a team is probably going to go out of their way to add for a Cup run, but tons of guys like him have won the Cup. If you aren't an incompetent hockey player, have good compete, and at least a decent motor, a team can certainly "win" with you, even if your role is small.

The game is called differently in the playoffs, to be sure, but it's a bit overblown at times. It's much more about the mental makeup of individual players than it is about officiating. Can this player rise above? Can he adapt his game? Can he find an extra gear for a couple months? That's the difference maker. It isn't, "ope, he's small and can't win board battles, so jettison him from the contending roster!"

Can a team win with Sam Gagner? Can a team win with Filip Zadina? Of course.

 

[Gniwder]

As I mentioned earlier in this topic - I've been critical of the guy for the same reasons others have been...That said these past few weeks leading up the postponement I've felt Zadina has looked incredibly more confident from where he was at the start of the season...Skating with the puck thru the neutral zone with speed, smart passing, sneaky back-checking - the guy has really put forth the effort and I for one have taken notice.

Now I'm still perplexed with his inaccuracy, but I'm hoping after his extended break we'll see him filling nets...I was all for moving him, but now I feel he might be worth more to us if we kept him...He may never live up to the expectation of being a top 6 forward, but we still need quality 3rd liners which just might be his niche.

I won't deny that the effort is there, but the issue I see is that he reverts back to his soft perimeter play too often. I have seen him go to the boards to retrieve pucks and go to the crease on the offensive end, but it's not consistent enough. Defensively he like to stick check, and doesn't engage physically like I'd like to see a third or fourth liner do. This is why I keep saying he's a poor man's Gagner, because the style is the same. Gagner at least can score goals every now and then, that last bank off the goalie's back was a veteran play that Zadina wouldn't even think of.

What the hell is this even supposed to mean?

To this logic neither is McDavid.

I'm sure I can find you players similar to Gagner with their name on the cup .

I'm sure he meant as a core piece. Players like Gagner have won the Cup, for example Brett Connolly. But he was a third liner on the Cup team, and Brett's also bigger and faster than Sam. They also had a quality 3C with Lars Eller. On a stacked team, a player like Zadina might have a career year on the third line like Brett did. But teams aren't going to win a Cup with Gagner/Zadina/Connolly playing top 6 forward. They just aren't good enough.

 

[Henkka]

I'm sure he meant as a core piece. Players like Gagner have won the Cup, for example Brett Connolly. But he was a third liner on the Cup team, and Brett's also bigger and faster than Sam. They also had a quality 3C with Lars Eller. On a stacked team, a player like Zadina might have a career year on the third line like Brett did. But teams aren't going to win a Cup with Gagner/Zadina/Connolly playing top 6 forward. They just aren't good enough.

It's not a problem to have 3rd level player in Zadina as our next Cup winning team. If the caphit is lower than 3rd liners average, he is winning and positive part of our team.

It doesn't matter how Zadina will help our team. He can be 3rd liner. Then there's better 1st and 2nd liners. And we nothing but love if situation is like that.

Only thing wrong is AGAIN and AGAIN - expectations.

People just thought wrong when he was 40-goal scorer in QMJHL - that he would be 40-goal scorer in NHL.

Anthony Mantha was 50-goal scorer in QMJHL, he is barely 30-goal scorer in NHL.

Zadina's maximum will be 25.

He will be 25+25 guy, just like Tomas Tatar. That's realism, no false hopes.