Assuming Kucherov wins third Art Ross, he is above which of these groups of players...

[tabness]

3 in perhaps the most competitive Art Ross era ever, with McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl all around that would al be excellent perennial winners based on their year to year performance and a good second tier of players that can have a peak year at a given season as well. That multi-year 4-deep group of worthy/non-fluke candidates may be unrivaled.

I think that's the point of contention between the pros and cons posters (ignoring the Tampa fans understandably going for their guy and my man @Video Nasty who's just here for the McDavid legacy thing).

It's the least competitive era for superstars, set the relative competition crunching nerd stuff aside, there's never been a time where it's easier for skill players to showcase their skill due to the rules and softness.

Dude nicknamed Crysaitl/Divesaitl is the best player in the world this year, says it all.

 

[Crow]

4 games for 4 nations isn’t going to make a difference one way or another IMO unless he actually got hurt. If Nate wore himself out those 4 games, which I find very hard to believe, he doesn’t deserve any awards for his regular season.

His season was outstanding, but it was eclipsed by a 3-4 or so people in different ways.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think that's the point of contention between the pros and cons posters (ignoring the Tampa fans understandably going for their guy and my man @Video Nasty who's just here for the McDavid legacy thing).

It's the least competitive era for superstars, set the relative competition crunching nerd stuff aside, there's never been a time where it's easier for skill players to showcase their skill due to the rules and softness.

Dude nicknamed Crysaitl/Divesaitl is the best player in the world this year, says it all.

Not getting into the "I liked this era better..... kids are soft blah blah blah" stuff, talking strictly about competition amongst the top scorers for the Art Ross trophy. You've got 4 guys basically perennially dominating the stat sheet and with some good deeper depth behind.

 

[Video Nasty]

Dude nicknamed Crysaitl/Divesaitl is the best player in the world this year, says it all.

Similar nicknames and reputation for Crosby in the “good old days”. Lemieux was also another huge whiner. It’s always been like this. Every era has someone complaining about the state of the game and how soft it is.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

I think that's the point of contention between the pros and cons posters (ignoring the Tampa fans understandably going for their guy and my man @Video Nasty who's just here for the McDavid legacy thing).

It's the least competitive era for superstars, set the relative competition crunching nerd stuff aside, there's never been a time where it's easier for skill players to showcase their skill due to the rules and softness.

Dude nicknamed Crysaitl/Divesaitl is the best player in the world this year, says it all.

The level each of the big three(four with Mackinnon) needs to maintain to win accolades is much greater than during 2010-2016 because they're in direct competition with each other. They're just on a different level compared to the rest, sort of how Gretzky/Mario/Jagr were on a different level from everyone between 1981-2001. They're directly competing with each other, while Crosby/Ovi/Malkin from 2010-2016 never won the Art Ross over one another directly. Malkin wasn't challenged by Crosby/Ovi in 2012, Crosby wasn't challenged by Malkin/Ovi in 2014. Even Crosby in 2007 was challenged by Thornton, not Ovi or Malkin. McDavid/Drai/Kuch constantly winning the Ross over each other > Malkin, Crosby, Ovi winning Rosses over Getzlaf, Stamkos, Thornton(Ovi 08, Malkin 09 are exceptions).

there's never been a time where it's easier for skill players to showcase their skill due to the rules and softness.

Goes both ways. Higher skill being showcased increases the speed at which the game is played, making it harder to create space.

 

[tabness]

I'm far from a Crosby/Ovechkin fan myself but the proof is in the pudding given the stats these guys are putting up in recent years in the twilight of their careers, never been easier to be a skill player.

Comparisons of McDavid to Gretzky and Lemieux are sort of dead on arrival for me so we don't have much of a common basis to discuss further.

Yes Lemieux was whiny as hell, but unlike Draisaitl, he actually had something to whine about lol

 

[Crow]

Similar nicknames and reputation for Crosby in the “good old days”. Lemieux was also another huge whiner. It’s always been like this. Every era has someone complaining about the state of the game and how soft it is.

Bedard is apparently not going to be the next one according to 99% of the people here, but I think he might be the next one when it comes to this. Refs already hate him, don’t give him calls because of it, call very soft penalties on him more often than warranted. I think unfortunately some of the most talented players in this league get the most biased treatment against them rather consistently.

Wish there was a practical way to punish poor refereeing and referees with huge egos without diminishing their authority entirely, or without watching the good ones suffer with the bad.

 

[Connor McConnor]

This era for forwards is absolutely insane. Could legitimately have 4 guys challenge for top 50 all time places by the end of their careers, with one as top 10 and the other top 20.

 

[DFC]

4 games for 4 nations isn’t going to make a difference one way or another IMO unless he actually got hurt. If Nate wore himself out those 4 games, which I find very hard to believe, he doesn’t deserve any awards for his regular season.

His season was outstanding, but it was eclipsed by a 3-4 or so people in different ways.

Kucherov was trending to catch up and surpass all year anyway, if I'm not mistaken. There was one point where McKinnon pulled away, but Kuch always had the edge in ppg and always had games at hand.

 

[Video Nasty]

With his 37th goal of the season tonight, Kucherov picked up his 120th point, the third time he has reached the mark in his career.

He joins McDavid, Bossy, Trottier, Yzerman, Coffey, and Stastny in that category.

The only players who have more are Gretzky (14x), Lemieux (8x), Esposito and Dionne (6x), Lafleur (5x), and Orr and Jagr (4x).

 

[authentic]

Similar nicknames and reputation for Crosby in the “good old days”. Lemieux was also another huge whiner. It’s always been like this. Every era has someone complaining about the state of the game and how soft it is.

The difference is that today’s game is soft compared to those eras, by far. But truthfully I like an NHL where the star players can stay healthy anyway.

 

[wetcoast]

3 Art Ross trophies and a Hart. I just don't see how he can be denied. All he needs is a bit of longevity.

The part in bold, heck he might even be close now haven't done a deep enough dive.

Kuch is certainly trending there though and higher.

 

[daver]

The level each of the big three(four with Mackinnon) needs to maintain to win accolades is much greater than during 2010-2016 because they're in direct competition with each other. They're just on a different level compared to the rest, sort of how Gretzky/Mario/Jagr were on a different level from everyone between 1981-2001. They're directly competing with each other, while Crosby/Ovi/Malkin from 2010-2016 never won the Art Ross over one another directly. Malkin wasn't challenged by Crosby/Ovi in 2012, Crosby wasn't challenged by Malkin/Ovi in 2014. Even Crosby in 2007 was challenged by Thornton, not Ovi or Malkin. McDavid/Drai/Kuch constantly winning the Ross over each other > Malkin, Crosby, Ovi winning Rosses over Getzlaf, Stamkos, Thornton(Ovi 08, Malkin 09 are exceptions).

Let's get the facts straight before comparing these guys to Wayne/Mario/Jagr. 2nd place in the Art Ross:

16/17 - Crosby/Kane (Kucherov 5th)
17/18 - Giroux (Kucherov 3rd)
18/19 - McDavid (Draisaitl 4th)
19/20 - McDavid (MacKinnon 5th)
20/21 - Draisatl (MacKinnon 8th)
21/22 - Huberdeau/Gaudreau (Draisaitl 4th)
22/23 - Draisatl (Kucherov T3rd)
23/24 - MacKinnon (McDavid 3rd)
24/25 - MacKinnon (Draisatil 3rd)

It really only has been the last two seasons that this quartet has stood out. Or rather that MacKinnon and Kucherov have put together full, peak seasons . Other than that, it's the McDavid factor; a generational talent who is putting up full (or close to full) seasons and likely dragging Draisaitl to 2nd place in a few of them.

There is no argument that injuries kept Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin from winning more Rosses and that their peak level of play argubly surpasses Draisaitl, MacKinnon and Kucherov.

2011 to 2016 was also the DPE 2.0 (or a bit worse) where tight, defensive hockey brought the elite offensive players closer to the pack vs. the significantly higher scoring since 17/18.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Let's get the facts straight before comparing these guys to Wayne/Mario/Jagr. 2nd place in the Art Ross:

16/17 - Crosby/Kane (Kucherov 5th)
17/18 - Giroux (Kucherov 3rd)
18/19 - McDavid (Draisaitl 4th)
19/20 - McDavid (MacKinnon 5th)
20/21 - Draisatl (MacKinnon 8th)
21/22 - Huberdeau/Gaudreau (Draisaitl 4th)
22/23 - Draisatl (Kucherov T3rd)
23/24 - MacKinnon (McDavid 3rd)
24/25 - MacKinnon (Draisatil 3rd)

It really only has been the last two seasons that this quartet has stood out. Or rather that MacKinnon and Kucherov have put together full, peak seasons . Other than that, it's the McDavid factor; a generational talent who is putting up full (or close to full) seasons and likely dragging Draisaitl to 2nd place in a few of them.

There is no argument that injuries kept Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin from winning more Rosses and that their peak level of play argubly surpasses Draisaitl, MacKinnon and Kucherov.

2011 to 2016 was also the DPE 2.0 (or a bit worse) where tight, defensive hockey brought the elite offensive players closer to the pack vs. the significantly higher scoring since 17/18.

Agree with a lot of this. If we’re looking at ppg, there’s a large gap between the big four and the rest:

PPG Since 2016-2017:
McDavid: 1.55
Kucherov: 1.43
Mackinnon: 1.32
Draisaitl: 1.32
Kaprizov: 1.21(small sample size)

2011-2017:
Crosby: 1.27
Malkin: 1.14
Kane: 1.05

It seems like it’s only a big two from a point production standpoint.

Ovechkin wasn’t an Art Ross competitor after he changed his playstyle to a pure scorer in 2011, and Malkin’s prime was riddled with injuries. The only one of the big three that maintained their mid-late 2000s production consistently was Crosby who’s also been injured. Maybe without all the injuries we could’ve seen Crosby/Ovi/Malkin do exactly what’s happening now, but realistically a fully healthy Crosby and Malkin would increase each other’s production where it would’ve been a big two that’s competing for the Art Ross.

 

[daver]

Realistically a fully healthy Crosby and Malkin would increase each other’s production where it would’ve been a big two that’s competing for the Art Ross.

A side point, they both did better when the other player was injured or underperforming so no, they do just as well regardless of whether the other was playing or not.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Let's get the facts straight before comparing these guys to Wayne/Mario/Jagr. 2nd place in the Art Ross:

16/17 - Crosby/Kane (Kucherov 5th)
17/18 - Giroux (Kucherov 3rd)
18/19 - McDavid (Draisaitl 4th)
19/20 - McDavid (MacKinnon 5th)
20/21 - Draisatl (MacKinnon 8th)
21/22 - Huberdeau/Gaudreau (Draisaitl 4th)
22/23 - Draisatl (Kucherov T3rd)
23/24 - MacKinnon (McDavid 3rd)
24/25 - MacKinnon (Draisatil 3rd)

It really only has been the last two seasons that this quartet has stood out. Or rather that MacKinnon and Kucherov have put together full, peak seasons . Other than that, it's the McDavid factor; a generational talent who is putting up full (or close to full) seasons and likely dragging Draisaitl to 2nd place in a few of them.

There is no argument that injuries kept Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin from winning more Rosses and that their peak level of play argubly surpasses Draisaitl, MacKinnon and Kucherov.

2011 to 2016 was also the DPE 2.0 (or a bit worse) where tight, defensive hockey brought the elite offensive players closer to the pack vs. the significantly higher scoring since 17/18.

No. That quartet has stood out since 2019, as at least 3 of them were basically top 5 in scoring every season. In most cases, the player who wasn’t top 5 was dealing with injuries too.

Meanwhile, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin and Kane have never finished all in the top 5 in scoring of any given season and the only time at least 3 of them were in the top 5 at the same time was 2008-2009.

There is no comparison. The 2020 quartet has been much more consistent with scoring finishes, with McDavid/Kucherov having seasons very much on par with Jagr’s best years.

A side point, they both did better when the other player was injured or underperforming so no, they do just as well regardless of whether the other was playing or not.

That’s not true. Crosby has been slightly worse with Malkin out of the lineup.

 

[daver]

Agree with a lot of this. If we’re looking at ppg, there’s a large gap between the big four and the rest:

PPG Since 2016-2017:
McDavid: 1.55
Kucherov: 1.43
Mackinnon: 1.32
Draisaitl: 1.32
Kaprizov: 1.21(small sample size)

2011-2017:
Crosby: 1.27
Malkin: 1.14
Kane: 1.05

It seems like it’s only a big two from a point production standpoint.

Ovechkin wasn’t an Art Ross competitor after he changed his playstyle to a pure scorer in 2011, and Malkin’s prime was riddled with injuries. The only one of the big three that maintained their mid-late 2000s production consistently was Crosby who’s also been injured. Maybe without all the injuries we could’ve seen Crosby/Ovi/Malkin do exactly what’s happening now, but realistically a fully healthy Crosby and Malkin would increase each other’s production where it would’ve been a big two that’s competing for the Art Ross.

Still not sure what the point is here other than to highlight injuries to the top level talent. Stamkos also should be included in the mix as he was in Mac/Kuch/Draisaitl territory before his injuries slowed him down.

If the point is to say that MacKinnon or Kucherov, when healthy, win an Art Ross or two if they played in the '11 to '16 time period? 14/15 for sure, 10/11 is likely.

Does this elevate this quartet to be more similar to Wayne/Mario/Jagr rather than Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin? No, especially when you consider '07 to '10 in the conversation including playoffs.

 

[daver]

That’s not true. Crosby has been slightly worse with Malkin out of the lineup.

It is true when you choose to not to ignore "underperforming". Crosby's peak mostly occurred when Malkin was not close to expected production. He has produced regardless of his linemates/ teammates throughout his career in a way that may be the most impressive among the GOAT talents and is a big reason they won Cups.

 

[daver]

No. That quartet has stood out since 2019, as at least 3 of them were basically top 5 in scoring every season.

Except in the seasons they weren't.

In most cases, the player who wasn’t top 5 was dealing with injuries too.

If injuries are considered, then the Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin trio would have had more era best peak seasons, and more Harts/Lindsays than the quartet have had.

 

[daver]

There is no comparison. The 2020 quartet has been much more consistent with scoring finishes, with McDavid/Kucherov having seasons very much on par with Jagr’s best years.

Sorry but Kucherov is not on Jagr's level. One EN point in 98/99 vs. Fourteen for Kucherov in 23/24 is just too significant to ignore.

Over his 7 year peak, Jagr was #1 in points with a bigger gap in PPG vs. his peers than Kucherov since 18/19 who is #4 in points.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Still not sure what the point is here other than to highlight injuries to the top level talent. Stamkos also should be included in the mix as he was in Mac/Kuch/Draisaitl territory before his injuries slowed him down.

If the point is to say that MacKinnon or Kucherov, when healthy, win an Art Ross or two if they played in the '11 to '16 time period? 14/15 for sure, 10/11 is likely.

Does this elevate this quartet to be more similar to Wayne/Mario/Jagr rather than Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin? No, especially when you consider '07 to '10 in the conversation including playoffs.

3 or 4 guys last season had a better season than the Ross winner in 2013-14. Malkin 2011-12 and then Kane in 2015-16 were the best seasons of the era.

 

[mel13666]

Sorry but Kucherov is not on Jagr's level. One EN point in 98/99 vs. Fourteen for Kucherov in 23/24 is just too significant to ignore.

Over his 7 year peak, Jagr was #1 in points with a bigger gap in PPG vs. his peers than Kucherov since 18/19 who is #4 in points.

But Kuch missed 1.5 seasons during that period. If you give him points for the games he missed, he's a solid #2. You interpret the statistics as you like.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Really speaks volumes to 2010-11 through 2015-16 that Ovechkin is rightfully regarded as having significantly changed his game and dropped off almost entirely as an Art Ross threat and is still 2nd in aggregate points that time frame and only six point behind the guy in 1st (who is Giroux, not Crosby, Malkin or some other historical big name).

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You can scale down stats as needed, but Kucherov, McDavid, Mackinnon and Draisaitl are all likely cleaning up in this stretch with guys like Panarin and Pastrnak as threats in their best seasons. Consistency/Availability was significantly lacking in this stretch amongst the guys who were supposed to be the best.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

It is true when you choose to not to ignore "underperforming". Crosby's peak mostly occurred when Malkin was not close to expected production. He has produced regardless of his linemates/ teammates throughout his career in a way that may be the most impressive among the GOAT talents and is a big reason they won Cups.

More subjectivity, why not. What’s Crosby’s PPG in the games Malkin was “underperforming”?

Except in the seasons they weren't.



If injuries are considered, then the Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin trio would have had more era best peak seasons, and more Harts/Lindsays than the quartet have had.

The only seasons from 2019-2025 they were not at least 3 players in the top 5 were:

2021: Kucherov didn’t play a single game in the regular season. It was a lockout shortened season with the infamous Canadian division who was awful defensively. I believe the top 5 scorers that year were all in the same division (McDavid, Draisaitl, Marchand, Matthews, Marner)

2022: Kucherov only plays 47 games, MacKinnon plays 65. They all finish top 7 in PPG that year.

Sorry but Kucherov is not on Jagr's level. One EN point in 98/99 vs. Fourteen for Kucherov in 23/24 is just too significant to ignore.

All that tells me is that Kucherov has been better/more efficient in empty net situations.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You also the weird thing going on where all the best teams were in the West, and the West typically cleaned up H2H against the East, but all the top scorers played in the East... suggesting Western teams bore the brunt of tougher defensive matchups on a more regular basis.