Assuming Kucherov wins third Art Ross, he is above which of these groups of players...

[Video Nasty]

Shows how powerful nostalgia is when an elite talent like Kucherov, who has performed at a higher level for longer than players like Sakic did—little known fact by the way, Sakic was my favorite non-Gretzky/Lemieux/Jagr forward throughout the 90s and early 2000s—can barely be tolerated when it comes to rhe ranking amongst those certain players.

Crosby and Ovechkin have the fairy tale (aka make believe) element written into their story too. Sadly, there’s nothing Kucherov can do to overcome that. Particularly Crosby. That’s powerful mindshare on an entire generation of hockey fans. If Esposito can be so thoroughly ignored when it comes to these lists, it wouldn’t be much of a surprise to see the same happen to Kucherov.

Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Esposito, Jagr, McDavid, Mikita are the only players with more than Kucherov’s three Art Rosses. Hull and Lafleur also have three to their name. He didn’t end up on this list by mistake and he already belongs above most of the names listed in the poll options. He deserves to be discussed as so.

 

[authentic]

It doesn’t matter as Kucherov also beat him in PPG.

That’s against an injured McDavid, and before McDavid reached his peak. Those do not automatically place him in the top 10-15 of all-time.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Imagine making up arguments against the guy who led regular seasons in scoring thrice, the playoffs twice, won two cups and played in four finals, who is the all time best playmaking winger. And imagine comparing him to guys who won (and some even didn’t) a couple of awards and then had a long career of nothing burger seasons.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

That’s against an injured McDavid, and before McDavid reached his peak. Those do not automatically place him in the top 10-15 of all-time.

These are excuses. You either win or you don’t.

 

[authentic]

These are excuses. You either win or you don’t.

Way to totally miss the point.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Kucherov is ahead of him in per game scoring. There's no what if with Kucherov.

I believe Kucherov was well behind in the race as of the Four Nations break. MacKinnon sort of broke down at the very end from the grind, whereas it appears Kucherov got a well needed and well timed rest.

 

[Batis]

I believe Kucherov was well behind in the race as of the Four Nations break. MacKinnon sort of broke down at the very end from the grind, whereas it appears Kucherov got a well needed and well timed rest.

At the time of the Four Nations break MacKinnon had 87 points in 57 games (1.53 ppg) while Kucherov had 82 points in 52 games (1.58 ppg). Kucherov was 5 points behind because he had missed a few games and because Tampa had a few games in hand not because MacKinnon had outproduced him on a per game basis.

 

[GoldenKnight]

At the time of the Four Nations break MacKinnon had 87 points in 57 games (1.53 ppg) while Kucherov had 82 points in 52 games (1.58 ppg). Kucherov was 5 points behind because he had missed a few games and because Tampa had a few games in hand not because MacKinnon had outproduced him on a per game basis.

MacKinnon had played every game to that point, while Kucherov had some injuries and I believe the rest benefited him. MacKinnon on the other hand played essentially an intense playoff series during the Four Nations and that likely caused him to slow down and then break down before season's end.

What I am saying is that if MacKinnon also got to rest during the Four Nations, like Kucherov did, he probably wins the actual Art Ross trophy. I am not arguing about points per game here.

 

[Video Nasty]

MacKinnon had played every game to that point, while Kucherov had some injuries and I believe the rest benefited him. MacKinnon on the other hand played essentially an intense playoff series during the Four Nations and that likely caused him to slow down and then break down before season's end.

What I am saying is that if MacKinnon also got to rest during the Four Nations, like Kucherov did, he probably wins the actual Art Ross trophy. I am not arguing about points per game here.

If we were to give the benefit of the doubt, it would be to the player who has won scoring races before, not the one who never has.

 

[Sky04]

MacKinnon had played every game to that point, while Kucherov had some injuries and I believe the rest benefited him. MacKinnon on the other hand played essentially an intense playoff series during the Four Nations and that likely caused him to slow down and then break down before season's end.

What I am saying is that if MacKinnon also got to rest during the Four Nations, like Kucherov did, he probably wins the actual Art Ross trophy. I am not arguing about points per game here.

Actually Mackinnon got to stay fit while Kucherov got cold from not playing, if Kucherov got the play 4 Nations he would've easily finished the season over 140 points, Mackinnon couldn't handle it because he's not used to playing past the 2nd round anyways.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

He could have 2 pretty easily though. He's top 25 for me and the most underated player of this era.

Ya but instead he has 0

 

[cvaicunas]

Kucherov has done this multiple times now, yeah. Winning 3 Art Rosses in an era dominated by a top 10 (5?) all time player is really a statement.

To me, the line for Kucherov was always Jagr. Or at least that's where he's trending.

Another thing in Kucherov's favor is, because his game is SO cerebral, he should age well. Injuries could of course derail that, but he and McDavid should be the favorites for next year's Art Ross. He's been an incredibly consistent top scorer.

Yea I never know how to rank these things, however I think you could make the case for Yzerman NOT having the Art Rosses, to NOT diminish his accomplishments. He played in an era with Gretzky and Lemieux

 

[DFC]

Yea I never know how to rank these things, however I think you could make the case for Yzerman NOT having the Art Rosses, to NOT diminish his accomplishments. He played in an era with Gretzky and Lemieux

Absolutely. I rank Yzerman very highly. He's my all time favorite player. But IMO Kucherov would have to retire tomorrow to rank below Yzerman. Kucherov is just that good. He's easily the most dangerous offensive player I've ever followed (grew up a Wings fan).

 

[Video Nasty]

Yea I never know how to rank these things, however I think you could make the case for Yzerman NOT having the Art Rosses, to NOT diminish his accomplishments. He played in an era with Gretzky and Lemieux

You really can’t. 1988-1989 is the only season of his career where he wins an Art Ross, if you subtract both Lemieux and Gretzky.

However, I see no need to diminish Yzerman, other than the fact that Kucherov should sail by both him and Sakic with ease by the time he hangs them up. He’s already done just as much, if not more.

 

[filinski77]

Couple points of context to add to some of the comments being made here. And I'm going to just throw out facts without any opinion on them, so don't come at me lol.

"3 Rosses in the McDavid era"
True - but not really as impactful as some people think that statement means. McDavid is 5th in points this year, and was 3rd last year. There was only one time (2019) where Kucherov had to directly beat out McDavid for the Ross.

"Lead the league in playoffs, playoff success"
Kucherov has been great in the playoffs don't get me wrong. But he has many flaws in his playoff career.

Stats in Potential Clinching Games = 7 goals, 19 points in 30 games (19 goal, 52 point pace per 82)
Stats in Elimination Games = 2 goals, 11 points in 16 games (10 goal, 56 point pace per 82)

He may have some high highs, but also has some extreme lows when you look at the 2 most important types of playoff games.

 

[cvaicunas]

Absolutely. I rank Yzerman very highly. He's my all time favorite player. But IMO Kucherov would have to retire tomorrow to rank below Yzerman. Kucherov is just that good. He's easily the most dangerous offensive player I've ever followed (grew up a Wings fan).

Yea I certainly possess a massive amount of bias and fondness for players I watched growing up. Yzerman for one certainly, Fedorov another. I don't intellectually understand the game of hockey at a high enough level to ascertain who was indeed a better player. How much credit due players, and just to play the game, such as Yzerman and Fedorov, get for seemingly paying more attention to defense for the sake of the team. Is that an overstated theory, is Kucherov that much better offensively that it does not matter? I can't quantify any of these things. I can say for certain, I wish the Wings had Kucherov on their team. That's about what matters to me

 

[DFC]

Yea I certainly possess a massive amount of bias and fondness for players I watched growing up. Yzerman for one certainly, Fedorov another. I don't intellectually understand the game of hockey at a high enough level to ascertain who was indeed a better player. How much credit due players, and just to play the game, such as Yzerman and Fedorov, get for seemingly paying more attention to defense for the sake of the team. Is that an overstated theory, is Kucherov that much better offensively that it does not matter? I can't quantify any of these things. I can say for certain, I wish the Wings had Kucherov on their team. That's about what matters to me

Offensively, yeah, Kucherov really is that much better.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Couple points of context to add to some of the comments being made here. And I'm going to just throw out facts without any opinion on them, so don't come at me lol.

"3 Rosses in the McDavid era"
True - but not really as impactful as some people think that statement means. McDavid is 5th in points this year, and was 3rd last year. There was only one time (2019) where Kucherov had to directly beat out McDavid for the Ross.

"Lead the league in playoffs, playoff success"
Kucherov has been great in the playoffs don't get me wrong. But he has many flaws in his playoff career.

Stats in Potential Clinching Games = 7 goals, 19 points in 30 games (19 goal, 52 point pace per 82)
Stats in Elimination Games = 2 goals, 11 points in 16 games (10 goal, 56 point pace per 82)

He may have some high highs, but also has some extreme lows when you look at the 2 most important types of playoff games.

You choose factual statistics, but decided to interpret them at your will.

- Why does it matter if McDavid finishes 3rd or 5th in scoring? He still beat him. It’s not like he missed half a season either. McDavid also will likely finish 2nd in PPG behind Kucherov, all 3 years when Kucherov won the Art Ross. That’s beating him directly. There’s no way you can downplay that.

- A game 1 of a series is as important as an elimination game. You get a win as a reward in both instances. Also, in your “many flaws” point, you pointed out his production in elimination games and his production in another variant of elimination games. That does not count for “many flaws”. It barely counts as one “flaw”.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

If we were to give the benefit of the doubt, it would be to the player who has won scoring races before, not the one who never has.

We should actually give the benefit of the doubt to the younger player who is at his peak, rather than the 31 year old alcoholic who benefited from a few periods of rest during this wacky season.

 

[wetcoast]

Absolutely. I rank Yzerman very highly. He's my all time favorite player. But IMO Kucherov would have to retire tomorrow to rank below Yzerman. Kucherov is just that good. He's easily the most dangerous offensive player I've ever followed (grew up a Wings fan).

Yzerman was ranked 40th overall all time when HOH did their last top 100 list in 18-19.

I'm not sure if Kuch is 40th all time yet but he seems to be trending that way and a bit more.

Kuch was 187th after the 19-20 season but the format is scrambled so I won't post that link.

Thread 'Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time'

Nov 11, 2018

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time

The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community.

Report any errors to @quoipourquoi

Rank	Player	Position	Born	Nation	Birth City
1	Wayne Gretzky	C	1961	Canada	Brantford, Ontario
2	Gordie Howe	RW	1928	Canada	Floral...

[TBODY]

• quoipourquoi
• Replies: 999
• Forum: The History of Hockey

• 

 

[wetcoast]

Couple points of context to add to some of the comments being made here. And I'm going to just throw out facts without any opinion on them, so don't come at me lol.

"3 Rosses in the McDavid era"
True - but not really as impactful as some people think that statement means. McDavid is 5th in points this year, and was 3rd last year. There was only one time (2019) where Kucherov had to directly beat out McDavid for the Ross.

"Lead the league in playoffs, playoff success"
Kucherov has been great in the playoffs don't get me wrong. But he has many flaws in his playoff career.

Stats in Potential Clinching Games = 7 goals, 19 points in 30 games (19 goal, 52 point pace per 82)
Stats in Elimination Games = 2 goals, 11 points in 16 games (10 goal, 56 point pace per 82)

He may have some high highs, but also has some extreme lows when you look at the 2 most important types of playoff games.

That's fair but I also wonder what the actual scoring averages are in those games across different teams and seasons and also how much weight to put to this subset of games.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Actually Mackinnon got to stay fit while Kucherov got cold from not playing, if Kucherov got the play 4 Nations he would've easily finished the season over 140 points, Mackinnon couldn't handle it because he's not used to playing past the 2nd round anyways.

LOL…sure thing.

 

[Video Nasty]

We should actually give the benefit of the doubt to the younger player who is at his peak, rather than the 31 year old alcoholic who benefited from a few periods of rest during this wacky season.

So what you’re really saying is the younger, clean living player can’t beat an old drunk?

 

[DFC]

Yzerman was ranked 40th overall all time when HOH did their last top 100 list in 18-19.

I'm not sure if Kuch is 40th all time yet but he seems to be trending that way and a bit more.

Kuch was 187th after the 19-20 season but the format is scrambled so I won't post that link.

Thread 'Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time'

Nov 11, 2018

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time

The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community.

Report any errors to @quoipourquoi

Rank	Player	Position	Born	Nation	Birth City
1	Wayne Gretzky	C	1961	Canada	Brantford, Ontario
2	Gordie Howe	RW	1928	Canada	Floral...

[TBODY]

• quoipourquoi
• Replies: 999
• Forum: The History of Hockey

• 

3 Art Ross trophies and a Hart. I just don't see how he can be denied. All he needs is a bit of longevity.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Esposito, Jagr, McDavid, Mikita are the only players with more than Kucherov’s three Art Rosses. Hull and Lafleur also have three to their name. He didn’t end up on this list by mistake and he already belongs above most of the names listed in the poll options. He deserves to be discussed as so.

3 in perhaps the most competitive Art Ross era ever, with McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl all around that would al be excellent perennial winners based on their year to year performance and a good second tier of players that can have a peak year at a given season as well. That multi-year 4-deep group of worthy/non-fluke candidates may be unrivaled.