Assuming Kucherov wins third Art Ross, he is above which of these groups of players...

[Lafleurs Guy]

I have him in group B. Fantastic player but not quite at the Bossy/Yzerman level. Kucherov produces at almost exactly the same rate as Mackinnon and Drai but with fewer goals. And those goals matter.

Lafleur and Bossy both produced six straight 50 goal 100 point seasons. Yes it's a different era but Lafleur is the best point/goal player in the league. Bossy gets stuck behind Gretz but is otherwise incredible. And Yzerman is by far the highest scorer in hockey not named Wayne/Mario and just misses out on six straight 50/100 as well. To me, all those players are better. They're putting up incredible points while leading in goals as well. From 78/79 Bossy is 2nd to Gretz in points and actually has one more goal (in fifty+ more games.)

I find Yzerman to be criminally underrated. Most goals and points by a lot over six seasons but it gets overlooked because of two goliaths and Yzerman's accomplishments are particularly impressive considering he's the only one here on mostly dreadful teams. A shame he got injured in 94... he was never really the same and it disrupted an incredible streak of play. Apart from Wayne Mario, he's the best player in the league in 89 and probably wins the Hart if he's on a decent team in 1990.

Kucherov has an amazing playoff resume but so do Lafleur and Bossy. Yzerman not so much until much later in his career when he's past his prime on better clubs. The three Rosses are really impressive. He's an awesome player but I can't put him above Yzerman/Bossy.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Above B, around C.

Around 35-40th all time

I have Bossy, Trottier, and Yzerman all close all time and he would be right in there. I have Sakic slightly ahead of them all.

This feels right to me.

 

[wetcoast]

I truly don’t see the justification for putting him on Lafleurs level unless Art Ross trophies are the only thing that matters.

At this point it's getting hard to argue that Lafleur had the better career unless one places way too much emphasis on the dynasty thing which was a circumstance for Lafleur and hardly a creation.

Kuch has more very good to elite seasons than Lafleur and has also peak higher.

 

[wetcoast]

The most questioned experts, how did you meet from North America. And the majority always prefers a fellow countryman. To win, you really need to be a cut above. Because if this is somewhat debatable, then in 9 out of 10 cases the victory will go to the local man. To his credit, MacKinnon is a really good player, and he does not allow anyone to look a cut above.

You really need to stop this countrymen always prefer a countrymen "argument" as not only is it not true, it's not even a real argument.

 

[authentic]

At this point it's getting hard to argue that Lafleur had the better career unless one places way too much emphasis on the dynasty thing which was a circumstance for Lafleur and hardly a creation.

Kuch has more very good to elite seasons than Lafleur and has also peak higher.

Peak higher by what metric though? I somehow don’t believe Kucherov is better than a peak Lafleur (on a relative basis), but perhaps there’s an argument against it that I’m missing.

 

[daver]

I find Yzerman to be criminally underrated. Most goals and points by a lot over six seasons but it gets overlooked because of two goliaths and Yzerman's accomplishments are particularly impressive considering he's the only one here on mostly dreadful teams. A shame he got injured in 94... he was never really the same and it disrupted an incredible streak of play. Apart from Wayne Mario, he's the best player in the league in 89 and probably wins the Hart if he's on a decent team in 1990.

Yzerman is placed about right. A superstar offensive talent in his '20s with a disappointing playoff resume that he didn't shake off until his '30s then some decent longevity.

He has one season that wins an Art Ross in most other seasons without Mario and Wayne in the league then two other notable seasons where he is an Art Ross threat.

Over that six year period, his offensive dominance wasn't quite on the level of McDavid, Crosby, Jagr or Lafleur over their best 6/7 seasons (or more in the case of McDavid and Crosby).

Kucherov's offensive dominance over the past 6/7 years is argubly superior.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Let’s put it this way, is anyone putting MacKinnon on this level as well? MacKinnon is a better player than Kucherov.

MacKinnon in gm7 is 0-4
1 assist, thats not good enough to be the best of the best, vanish in
the most critical game, maybe he will redeem himself tomorrow, but if
he loses that also with less then 2 points, its a pattern.

 

[authentic]

MacKinnon in gm7 is 0-4
1 assist, thats not good enough to be the best of the best, vanish in
the most critical game, maybe he will redeem himself tomorrow, but if
he loses that also with less then 2 points, its a pattern.

Not sure I agree with 5 games being a pattern, super small sample size…

However, consider every elimination game and MacK > Kuch. I still don’t see where Kucherov has any decisive offensive edge anywhere, and MacKinnon is the better overall player. His overall playoff stats and all-around play give him the edge.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yzerman is placed about right. A superstar offensive talent in his '20s with a disappointing playoff resume that he didn't shake off until his '30s then some decent longevity.

He has one season that wins an Art Ross in most other seasons without Mario and Wayne in the league then two other notable seasons where he is an Art Ross threat.

Over that six year period, his offensive dominance wasn't quite on the level of McDavid, Crosby, Jagr or Lafleur over their best 6/7 seasons (or more in the case of McDavid and Crosby).

Kucherov's offensive dominance over the past 6/7 years is argubly superior.

Kucherov played on powerhouse teams though. Yes, Yzerman's playoff resume was disappointing in his prime but look at the clubs he was on. Putting up 155 points with that Wings club is absolutely insane. And Yzerman's scoring a lot more goals than Kucherov.

He would've come second to Messier in 1990 in points for example but his season is way more impressive than Messier's is. But he doesn't sniff the Hart because he's on an awful team.

 

[daver]

Putting up 155 points with that Wings club is absolutely insane. And Yzerman's scoring a lot more goals than Kucherov.

Kucherov was in on 50% of Tampa's goals scored in 23/24 and Yzeramn was in on 50% of Detroit's goals in 88/89.

It's quite close between them. I guess most would rate Kucherov behind him for now. There is something about Kucherov that doesn't make him as good as his numbers would dictate.

 

[wetcoast]

Yzerman is placed about right. A superstar offensive talent in his '20s with a disappointing playoff resume that he didn't shake off until his '30s then some decent longevity.

Team disappointments sure but he didn't have a bad playoff resume before his 30s and that injury in 94 playoffs didn't help.

He has one season that wins an Art Ross in most other seasons without Mario and Wayne in the league then two other notable seasons where he is an Art Ross threat.

That's a really weird way of saying that he was actually the most productive forward in a 7 year stretch not named Wayne or Mario.

Over that six year period, his offensive dominance wasn't quite on the level of McDavid, Crosby, Jagr or Lafleur over their best 6/7 seasons (or more in the case of McDavid and Crosby).

What are you talking about here?

He is a clear 3rd behind only Gretzky/Mario and quite a gap on Luc (asssited by Gretzky a bit) and prime LaFonatine.

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Kucherov's offensive dominance over the past 6/7 years is argubly superior.

Not really.

The 6 years is above and here is 7.

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Add in a better 200 foot player and supporting cast one can claim Yzerman being more "dominant" in a 6 or 7 year peak/prime.

 

[wetcoast]

Peak higher by what metric though? I somehow don’t believe Kucherov is better than a peak Lafleur (on a relative basis), but perhaps there’s an argument against it that I’m missing.

Well here they are in adjusted points top 6 seasons

Lafleur 122.119,109,108,106,105

Kuch 140,128,121,108,102,100

But Lafleur really drop after his top 6 seasons next best 3 are 63,62,62 for Kuch he has 93,74,72 and almost certainly will have another great year next year.

The HOH section has Lafleur at 25th, which I think is a little high but Kuch might be past him by now and almost certainly will be by the time he is done.

 

[daver]

He is a clear 3rd behind only Gretzky/Mario and quite a gap on Luc (asssited by Gretzky a bit) and prime LaFonatine.

I was saying that, once you remove Wayne and Mario, the gap between him and the next best 5 to 10 scorers is not as impressive as those other players.

His offensive ceiling, like Kucherov's, is not in Top 20/30 all-time.

 

[wetcoast]

I was saying that, once you remove Wayne and Mario, the gap between him and the next best 5 to 10 scorers is not as impressive as those other players.

His offensive ceiling, like Kucherov's, is not in Top 20/30 all-time.

Perhaps because he was injured for some games, the numbers I provided showed some really good dominance over that 6 and 7 year time period.

Your argument doesn't really hold very much up to scrutiny.

 

[Three On Zero]

In the B-C range

 

[daver]

Perhaps because he was injured for some games, the numbers I provided showed some really good dominance over that 6 and 7 year time period.

Your argument doesn't really hold very much up to scrutiny.

He wasn't as dominant over the pack in PPG as those other players were. They are on another tier in terms of offensive peak/prime.

 

[wetcoast]

He wasn't as dominant over the pack in PPG as those other players were. They are on another tier in terms of offensive peak/prime.

Perhaps not in pure numerical terms but in the league context and team context his offensive chops are up there.

Yzerman doesn't have the peak numbers that Kuch does but he has the 15-19 year prime of being a difference maker out there and a 200 foot player.

That does count for something, it's not all about peak or prime scoring.

 

[daver]

Perhaps not in pure numerical terms but in the league context and team context his offensive chops are up there.

Yzerman doesn't have the peak numbers that Kuch does but he has the 15-19 year prime of being a difference maker out there and a 200 foot player.

That does count for something, it's not all about peak or prime scoring.

Here is what I said:

Kucherov's offensive dominance over the past 6/7 years is argubly superior.

 

[wetcoast]

Here is what I said:

Kucherov's offensive dominance over the past 6/7 years is argubly superior.

The numbers just don't support that though.

Kuch is second in PPG since 17-18 with 1.47, Mack is 1.42,, 10th best is 1.17

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Yzerman is first (we are talking out Mario and Wayne) in scoring and PPG with 1.55, next is Selanne with 1.33 and Luc Robitaille is 10th with 1.28 just not understanding your argument here?

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[Lafleurs Guy]

Kucherov was in on 50% of Tampa's goals scored in 23/24 and Yzeramn was in on 50% of Detroit's goals in 88/89.

What percent did Yzerman score himself though?

It's quite close between them. I guess most would rate Kucherov behind him for now. There is something about Kucherov that doesn't make him as good as his numbers would dictate.

Yzerman's a really interesting case. It's not until he's past his prime that he gets good teams and then he wins a Conn Smythe. He really is the best player in the league for a six year period if you eliminate Mario/Wayne. His prime is really close to Lafleur but he doesn't have the playoffs behind him. That's the big mark against him. He gets that later but by then he's not quite the same player because he gets hurt in 94 and isn't the same again.

 

[daver]

The numbers just don't support that though.

Kuch is second in PPG since 17-18 with 1.47, Mack is 1.42,, 10th best is 1.17

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Yzerman is first (we are talking out Mario and Wayne) in scoring and PPG with 1.55, next is Selanne with 1.33 and Luc Robitaille is 10th with 1.28 just not understanding your argument here?

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Two things:

1. You picked 8 years for Kucherov and 7 years for Yzerman. The original comment was about Yzerman's 6 year dominance. Let's go with 7 years as this captures Kucherov's three Art Rosses. That Kucherov has two more relevant Art Ross finishes beyond that is significant in the overall comparison.

2. How do you account for the fact that there are a significant amount more teams in Kucherov's era? It is reasonable to assume that the pack of elite scorers has expanded during that time. At the very least, it should be an edge for Kucherov if their numbers are close. It's not unreasonable to expand Kucherov's peer group (e.g. compare his PPG to #13, #25 vs. Yzerman being compared to #10, #20 etc...)

I'll concede that Yzerman wins the points and goals battle while Kucherov wins the PPG dominance battle. And neither of them are on McDavid, Jagr, Crosby or Lafleur level.

 

[wetcoast]

Two things:

1. You picked 8 years for Kucherov and 7 years for Yzerman. The original comment was about Yzerman's 6 year dominance. Let's go with 7 years as this captures Kucherov's three Art Rosses. That Kucherov has two more relevant Art Ross finishes beyond that is significant in the overall comparison.

I picked 8 years for Kuch as it was really 7 he missed an entire season but if you want chop off one of those years.

2. How do you account for the fact that there are a significant amount more teams in Kucherov's era? It is reasonable to assume that the pack of elite scorers has expanded during that time. At the very least, it should be an edge for Kucherov if their numbers are close. It's not unreasonable to expand Kucherov's peer group (e.g. compare his PPG to #13, #25 vs. Yzerman being compared to #10, #20 etc...)

Sure but do you want to account for TB being 5th in PP % when Kuch didn't play that season as well?

There is no doubt that Kuch produces in part due to his linemates, especially that PP Unit.

Also let's throw in the difference in teams approaches to EN situations and 3 on 3 OT scoring and at the end of the day the # of teams variance is probably offset for the most part to the 2 items I bring up here for context.

I'll concede that Yzerman wins the points and goals battle while Kucherov wins the PPG dominance battle. And neither of them are on McDavid, Jagr, Crosby or Lafleur level.

Lafleur really stands out from this group of 4, he isn't on their level even in peak terms and alot of his legacy is because the Habs drafted him and not Detroit or the California Seals.

 

[daver]

Lafleur really stands out from this group of 4, he isn't on their level even in peak terms and alot of his legacy is because the Habs drafted him and not Detroit or the California Seals.

He is absolutely on their level in terms of statistical dominance in that six year period. That is not open to subjective interpretation. If you want to place him lower than them on that tier, that's fine.

What evidence can you provide that he isn't as dominant statistically in the regular season if he plays on another team? That cuts both ways as he likely is postioned to put up more points in his first three seasons than he did on the Habs if he played on another team.

Putting peak Yzerman on the same tier as peak Guy is not reasonable.

 

[daver]

I picked 8 years for Kuch as it was really 7 he missed an entire season but if you want chop off one of those years.

Sure but do you want to account for TB being 5th in PP % when Kuch didn't play that season as well?

There is no doubt that Kuch produces in part due to his linemates, especially that PP Unit.

Also let's throw in the difference in teams approaches to EN situations and 3 on 3 OT scoring and at the end of the day the # of teams variance is probably offset for the most part to the 2 items I bring up here for context.

Tbey were 9th in PP% that year and it was the worse PP% for the Bolts over Kucherov's 10 year prime.

I don't like moving players up or down clear offensive statistical tiers when other factors are considered. That's not the case here and I agree that arguements can be made to place Yzerman above Kucherov (i.e. franchise C vs. offense only winger) but it is not reasonable to place them on different same tiers offensively at their peak/prime.

 

[wetcoast]

Tbey were 9th in PP% that year and it was the worse PP% for the Bolts over Kucherov's 10 year prime.

You are right I had the number worng but my point remains the same ?Kuch is a part of an insanely good PP Unit.

19-20 with Kuch TB was 6th in PPG and 5th in PP%
20-21 without Kuch TB was 4th in PPG and 9th in PP%
21-22 with Kuch TB was 6th in PPG and 8th in PP%

Detroit without Yzerman in his prime most certainly wouldn'dt have done as well as they didn't have the weapons.

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I don't like moving players up or down clear offensive statistical tiers when other factors are considered. That's not the case here and I agree that arguements can be made to place Yzerman above Kucherov (i.e. franchise C vs. offense only winger) but it is not reasonable to place them on different same tiers offensively at their peak/prime.

The numbers and a general understanding of hockey suggest otherwise as Yzerman in his peak years also brought elite similar scoring and a better 200 foot game.