As of TODAY, where is McDavid on the all time list in your opinion?

[vancityluongo]

today? somewhere between 12 and 18. a cup gets him to the high end of the range, two or more to get out of that range, all else considered the same as today.

expect he'll firmly be in the lower end of the top-10 when it's all done, cup(s) or not.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Math guy here questioning it. You really have to stretch the value of Hart's to even remotely make an argument for McDavid being equal to Jagr currently. "At LEAST", no, not even close.

1921 points > 1003 points
2 Cups > 0 Cups
5 Art Ross = 5 Art Ross
1 Hart < 3 Hart
3 Lindsay/Pearson < 4 Lindsay/Pearson
0 Conn Smythe < 1 Conn Smythe

You're very obviously leaning on the "Cups" argument, but Jagr won his Cups in his literal first two seasons backstopped by an amazing roster (which he obviously contributed to). When he was in his prime, i.e. when he was Jagr, he didn't even come close. And he certainly never had a couple of playoff runs like McDavid has had.

 

[benfranklin]

Weird take. I'm a bigger jagr than mcdavid fan. But in significantly less time McDavid has won more individual accolades. All Jagr really has going for him here is length of tenure and the team award (SC).

I'd say it's much closer than you seem to think.

The whole premise is TODAY. So if he loses his leg today and never plays again, where does he stand?

Ahead of Jagr apparently...

 

[benfranklin]

You're very obviously leaning on the "Cups" argument, but Jagr won his Cups in his literal first two seasons backstopped by an amazing roster (which he obviously contributed to). When he was in his prime, i.e. when he was Jagr, he didn't even come close. And he certainly never had a couple of playoff runs like McDavid has had.

Want to try again? Outside of last year, Jagr easily has the better playoff success without winning Cups, albeit its not by much, but it is there. And captain obvious, but lets pretend Draisaitl is gone 4 of the 7 years; where would the Oilers finish, let alone even qualify? That is what Jagr had with no Lemieux. It is rewriting history, but the 90s Penguins easily couldve been a dynasty team if Lemieux was healthy. Obviously McDavid is Lemieux and Jagr is Draisaitl in terms of production, but you get what Im saying.


94-95 - lost in 2nd round (No Lemieux)
95-96 - lost in Conference Finals
96-97 - lost in 1st round
97-98 - lost in 1st round (No Lemieux)
98-99 - lost in 2nd round (No Lemieux)
99-00 - lost in 2nd round (No Lemieux)
00-01 - lost in Conference Finals

16-17- lost in 2nd round
17-18 - missed
18-19 - missed
19-20 - missed
20-21 - lost in 1st round
21-22- lost in Conference Finals
22-23- lost in 2nd round
23-24 - lost in Finals

Lastly, yes Cups are a huge asterisk on every players legacy, whether they win it their rookie year, Conn Smythe it, or are a third line old man role player. Its important.

 

[Neil Racki]

Today right now, like never played ever again?

Top 50

Stays healthy yada yada yada and hes top 5 easy.

edit - anyone putting him top 5 right now ... Im guessing there is conscious and unconscious credit being given for what he will/would/could do in the future that is coloring your "right now" opinion .. imo

 

[Grifter3511]

The whole premise is TODAY. So if he loses his leg today and never plays again, where does he stand?

Ahead of Jagr apparently...

You said it. Not me. But you're correct in that it's as of today. And as of today McDavid has won more individual hardware than Jagr in a far shorter amount of time.

I'd rather win a SC than a CS. But if we're talking which implies a player is better, winning 2 cups or being on the losing end and winning the CS? Well, even plugs and goons win the SC. Not many people win the CS, and even fewer in a losing cause.

 

[benfranklin]

You said it. Not me. But you're correct in that it's as of today. And as of today McDavid has won more individual hardware than Jagr in a far shorter amount of time.

I'd rather win a SC than a CS. But if we're talking which implies a player is better, winning 2 cups or being on the losing end and winning the CS? Well, even plugs and goons win the SC. Not many people win the CS, and even fewer in a losing cause.

Pat Maroon is the perfect example there. Right place at the right time in wins and losses, but obviously I agree, you have to contribute.

McDavid has 2 more Harts and 1 more Lindsay/Pearson in the same time frame and similar age (Jagr 28 in 2001. McDavid 27 in 2024). I hardly consider that "far more" given the years we are comparing are 93-94 to 00-01 (8 years) and 16-17 to 23-24 (8 years). Since we're conveniently removing Jagr's first two seasons (even though he put up 13 points in 24 games as a rookie and then 24 points in 21 games to help the Pens win some scrub trophy back to back), but i'll play the game with the handicap.

Assuming McDavid quit hockey today because that is the premise of the thread and not where we think he will finish his career, compared to Jagr:

2 less Cups
2 more Harts
1 more Pearson/Lindsay
1 less Olympic gold, 1 less Olympic bronze
1 more WJC gold
918 less points
424 less goals
494 less assists

Assuming you take out the names and simply look above, its not even close and its insulting to the greats that played this game. I wholeheartedly agree that McDavid will get more Hart's, Art Ross's, and Lindsay's. Maybe even a Cup if he leaves Edmonton, and he will finish his career meeting or beating Jagr everywhere, but as of TODAY, he does not have it yet.

 

[tanti9]

I think he has to be around 5? Mcdavid is a phenomenal talent but to some degree you have to take the thought in that he has not won the Cup. I think these players are for sure ahead of him. Can there be cases for other players as well, definitely there can be. Mcdavid is a joy to watch and has burned my Canucks many times, but I admire his skill. I even mentioned that his response in the playoffs last year to the cross checks he was receiving ("it is playoff hockey"), gained more respect from me as i always thought him to be a whiner. Hope he gets his Stanley Cup, but not before the Canucks lol.

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Mcdavid, Hasek, Yzerman, Messieer, Bourgue, Crosby, Ovechkin, etc

 

[thaman8765678]

Just outside the top 100.

He is one of the greatest for offense, but there is more to hockey than scoring goals. I take the overall skill set including defense and leadership intp account, which he is lacking.

 

[Romang67]

Just outside the top 100.

He is one of the greatest for offense, but there is more to hockey than scoring goals. I take the overall skill set including defense and leadership intp account, which he is lacking.

I assume your method of ranking is consistent for someone like Lemieux?

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Obviously McDavid is Lemieux and Jagr is Draisaitl in terms of production, but you get what Im saying.

How do you type this sentence and then continue on with any of the rest of your argument

 

[Ignatius]

Behind Crosby and Malkin, probably 102 best all time because he'll never get in over Top 100 Toews

 

[benfranklin]

How do you type this sentence and then continue on with any of the rest of your argument

lol what? Was Jagr not considered the best in the world for a good 6 year stretch from 1995-2001? It doesnt discount what he did to say Lemieux (assuming health) would have been better than him if he played. Lemieux is still arguably the best player to ever play the game and if he had health and longevity had a real chance at taking down Gretzkys records. Assuming Lemieux was able to play the same amount of games as Gretzky, his career pace would put him 57 points behind Gretz. 2800!!! That is how good Lemieux was and he did it in a harder era to score.

Kindof like it McDavid goes down, doesnt mean Draisaitl stops scoring all of a sudden, so no this doesnt discount how great Jagr was while complimenting Lemieux at the same time.

 

[ayoshi]

McDavid's PPG can't really be compared to the all-time greats, because he is in his prime right now and hasn't had the end-of-career PPG dip that all players go through.

For me, talent-wise McDavid is top 5 all time. "Greatness"-wise is a tougher call without a Stanley Cup championship. That was a knock on guys like Dionne and Thornton, and if McDavid never wins one, it'll be a knock on him too.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Whenever I discuss great hockey players with friends over a few adult beverages, the ‘87 Canada Cup always comes up. Gretzky and Lemieux, right?

With Orr, it’s his one-legged MVP performance in the ‘76 Canada Cup. His beautiful swan song.

More than a few people in my age group remain blown away by 46 year-old Gordie Howe’s outstanding performance against the Soviets in the ‘74 Summit Series, and there’s no doubt that Bobby Hull’s Team Canada performances as a 35 year-old in ‘74 and a 37 year-old in ‘76 reminded the NHL-centric fans of his enduring greatness.

Crosby’s golden goal overtime winner in 2010 fits into the same category. Outside of Pennsylvania, that goal is the one everyone will always remember.

McDavid has played through the dead period of best-on-best hockey. Not his fault, of course. When players wear the colours of their country, NHL fanbases at least temporarily forget about league rivalries and rep their nations. Folks who hate McDavid or Crosby will love them both if they’re playing together against the best from other hockey nations.

McDavid needs this. He is absolutely the best Canadian hockey player alive today. 4 Nations Cup and then the Olympics in ‘26. Be the man and show the world. Every other transcendent player in the last 50 years seized the moment.

Your turn.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

lol what? Was Jagr not considered the best in the world for a good 6 year stretch from 1995-2001? It doesnt discount what he did to say Lemieux (assuming health) would have been better than him if he played. Lemieux is still arguably the best player to ever play the game and if he had health and longevity had a real chance at taking down Gretzkys records. Assuming Lemieux was able to play the same amount of games as Gretzky, his career pace would put him 57 points behind Gretz. 2800!!! That is how good Lemieux was and he did it in a harder era to score.

Kindof like it McDavid goes down, doesnt mean Draisaitl stops scoring all of a sudden, so no this doesnt discount how great Jagr was while complimenting Lemieux at the same time.

My guy, McDavid broke a literal Gretzky record en route to game 7 of the finals. Meanwhile, guys like Kovalev and Straka were keeping pace with Jagr during the postseason and Jagr couldn't reach the conference finals without Lemieux.

 

[Sentinel]

My guy, McDavid broke a literal Gretzky record en route to game 7 of the finals. Meanwhile, guys like Kovalev and Straka were keeping pace with Jagr during the postseason and Jagr couldn't reach the conference finals without Lemieux.

Yeah but consider the competition. McDavid's Oilers wouldn't sniff the Finals in the 90s against Detroit, Colorado, and Dallas.

Overall, until McDavid wins the Cup, he is bound to be outside the Top10.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Yeah but consider the competition. McDavid's Oilers wouldn't sniff the Finals in the 90s against Detroit, Colorado, and Dallas.

Overall, until McDavid wins the Cup, he is bound to be outside the Top10.

This would be a stronger point if Jagr's Penguins weren't losing to the likes of Montreal and Toronto.

 

[geebster]

Lots of people ignoring the thread title and saying he's top 5 if he has a cup etc. As of right now, if he retired today he's top 10-20 in my books. Would have the least amount of team success of the top 30, but would be a top 5 ish talent and numbers that are better than the guys adjacent to him.

It's obvious he can go up or down depending on the future, but he isn't as of right now even comparable to Gretz, Lemieux, Orr, Crosby, etc.

 

[benfranklin]

My guy, McDavid broke a literal Gretzky record en route to game 7 of the finals. Meanwhile, guys like Kovalev and Straka were keeping pace with Jagr during the postseason and Jagr couldn't reach the conference finals without Lemieux.

lol conference finals. The Oilers couldnt even make the playoffs for three straight years and had both of their big guns going.

And take away Draisaitl, how far do those Oilers teams make it depending on your Straka and Kovalev comparisons (Nuge and Hyman I suppose lol).

 

[NVious]

The problem with the cup argument is that McDavid has only played with 1 HOF caliber player his entire career, whreas in order to win a cup or multiple cups you need at least 3 hall of famers on the team, ideally 4+ with a few borderline guys to boot.

Gretzky in LA is proof that even the greatest player of all time can only do so much if he isn't surrounded by a beast of a team, Lemieux before and after his 2 cups too.

 

[benfranklin]

Lots of people ignoring the thread title and saying he's top 5 if he has a cup etc. As of right now, if he retired today he's top 10-20 in my books. Would have the least amount of team success of the top 30, but would be a top 5 ish talent and numbers that are better than the guys adjacent to him.

It's obvious he can go up or down depending on the future, but he isn't as of right now even comparable to Gretz, Lemieux, Orr, Crosby, etc.

Finally a logical answer. We all agree skill wise and individually, he is a top 10 talent this sport has ever seen.

But so many posters here and giving him a ranking ahead of 500/600 goal scoring, multiple Cup winning greats to ever lace up skates. He will get there individually and maybe/maybe not have the team success. But to crown him that today is wild to me.

Top 100 - He is 100% a top 100 player ever. Stats have him there, no questions asked.
Top 75 - It is an easy argument to propel him up here because of the Hart's, Art Ross's, and Lindsay's.
Top 50 - This is where he will slowly chip away as the points keep piling up, and assuming he keeps up with more individual trophies (looks to be on hold for this season as of today).
Top 20 - My guess is he gets here easily based on points, assuming he finishes 2000+ points and 600+ goals, even if he doesnt add another individual trophy, which we would all bet he will.
Top 10 - Need the Cups big boy or else he will forever be the best player we've ever seen to not win it all.

 

[benfranklin]

The problem with the cup argument is that McDavid has only played with 1 HOF caliber player his entire career, whreas in order to win a cup or multiple cups you need at least 3 hall of famers on the team, ideally 4+ with a few borderline guys to boot.

Gretzky in LA is proof that even the greatest player of all time can only do so much if he isn't surrounded by a beast of a team, Lemieux before and after his 2 cups too.

I dont disagree, but also, it has been done. Off the top of my head who had few key players who ended up in the HHOF or likely will.

93 Canadiens
04 Lightning
06 Canes
12 and 14 Kings
18 Capitals
19 Blues
23 Knights

Some great players on all these teams, but 3 HHOF per who heavily contributed? Id argue McDavid and Draisaitl are better than what any of these had to offer. Depth is what is important obviously more often than not.