As of TODAY, where is McDavid on the all time list in your opinion?

[NVious]

I don't get it. Is...JT Miller overrated in your world?

You can't overrate the perfect player.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Currently? Top 20.

If he never played another game, I'd have him somewhere between 10 and 15.

He's still got a lot of career to go and some milestones he should be ticking off if he's going to be in the conversation for a place in the Top 5. But, I can see getting there. I just hope his eventual SC win isn't with the Oilers (or Leafs).

 

[amnesiac]

Somewhere around 10th, close to Richard and Bourque for me, below Crosby, Jagr, Hull, Beliveau, Hasek… but will undoubtedly pass them all

 

[Video Nasty]

He does not have an argument for being up there with the Big 4.

Howe was as good offensively with his placement in the Big 4 being as much about his all around game and longevity.

Orr and Mario were on other levels that McDavid has yet to reach.

Most of your post is fair. I understand the need to wait another handful of seasons before officially sliding McDavid into top 5 status—though I’m pretty sure you waived that rule when inducting Crosby.

I already covered Orr and Mario and why he can build a case against them based off being nearly as good yet having far more longevity, which brings us to Howe.

If McDavid keeps this up, it’s going to look pretty silly arguing against him, when his trophy cabinet is comparable or even exceeds what Howe did in a 6 team league 70 or so years ago. I’m fairly certain that McDavid has already equaled the number of top two PPG finishes Howe had, and that includes the ones Howe had past his age 28 season, which is what McDavid is currently in.

Will 6 Harts and 6 additional finalist nominations from such a small pool of players really outweigh something like 5 and 5 from McDavid in present day? I don’t think so.

 

[boompuffboom]

when he wins 2-3 cups maybe he can crack the lineup.

having him before Crosby, at this point, is outrageous.

 

[blundluntman]

I have him hovering around 10 butI have a hard time giving him a definitive spot . IMO he’s top 5 talent/peak wise, but all time lists factor in accomplishments and career value so it’s hard to justify him over the Beliveaus and Richards. Orr in the top 4 is different given he peaked a tier higher and got more bang for his buck (also won the cups which matters in discussions).

 

[benfranklin]

Did anyone read the OP?

TODAY

So a player 99th in scoring with 0 Cups is top 10 to ever play the game? Assuming you take the name away and simply list stats, no one would say that. This is insulting to the real greats.

He will get there, I have zero doubt barring a career ending injury, but he isnt yet. Take the goggles off.

 

[TotalHomer]

Will go down as one of the best if not the best offensive player ever.

 

[Ciao]

Did anyone read the OP?

TODAY

So a player 173rd in scoring with 0 Cups is top 10 to ever play the game? Assuming you take the name away and simply list stats, no one would say that. This is insulting to the real greats.

He will get there, I have zero doubt barring a career ending injury, but he isnt yet. Take the goggles off.

I guess you might actually watch him play instead of just reading data.

 

[Video Nasty]

Did anyone read the OP?

TODAY

So a player 173rd in scoring with 0 Cups is top 10 to ever play the game? Assuming you take the name away and simply list stats, no one would say that. This is insulting to the real greats.

He will get there, I have zero doubt barring a career ending injury, but he isnt yet. Take the goggles off.

Why do people keep saying he’s 173rd in scoring?

He’s 99th and only five players ahead of him have played under 1000 games, and four of them played at least 900, compared to his 660.

Take the name away and list the stats, and that player is going to be very noticeable, considering where he is and how few games it has taken to accomplish what he has. Further perusing into his hardware and how he currently ranks third all-time in PPG will make it further obvious that he is a top 10 player ever as he’s currently playing his 10th season. Then if you watched the guy ever play, it’s more clear than anything else.

Orr is not penalized for his current 123rd ranking in points, nor should he be.

 

[benfranklin]

Rank these players


Player A: 1300 points, 1 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 1 Rocket, 0 Cups
Player B: 1457 points, 0 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 0 Rocket, 1 Cup
Player C: 1003 points, 5 Art Ross, 3 Hart, 1 Rocket, 0 Cups
Player D: 1394 points, 0 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 0 Rocket, 1 Cup
Player E: 649 points, 0 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 3 Rocket, 0 Cups
Player F: 899 points, 2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 0 Rocket, 2 Cups
Player G: 1570 points, 1 Art Ross, 3 Hart, 9 Rocket, 1 Cup
Player H: 1590 ponts, 5 Art Ross, 2 Hart, 6 Rocket, 2 Cups

Spoiler: Click for spoiler

The amount of people already putting McDavid in the top 10 is wild. This list doesnt include any of Howe, Gretz, Orr, Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, either Hull, Lidstrom, Bourque, Messier, Bossy, Skaic, Yzerman, Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur, or any goalie.


Player A: 1300 points, 1 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 1 Rocket, 0 Cups Iginla
Player B: 1457 points, 0 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 0 Rocket, 1 Cup Selanne
Player C: 1003 points, 5 Art Ross, 3 Hart, 1 Rocket, 0 Cups McDavid
Player D: 1394 points, 0 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 0 Rocket, 1 Cup Robitaille
Player E: 649 points, 0 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 3 Rocket, 0 Cups Matthews
Player F: 899 points, 2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 0 Rocket, 2 Cups Kucherov
Player G: 1570 points, 1 Art Ross, 3 Hart, 9 Rocket, 1 Cup Ovechkin
Player H: 1590 ponts, 5 Art Ross, 2 Hart, 6 Rocket, 2 Cups Esposito

Why do people keep saying he’s 173rd in scoring?

He’s 99th and only five players ahead of him have played under 1000 games, and four of them played at least 900, compared to his 660.

Take the name away and list the stats, and that player is going to be very noticeable, considering where he is and how few games it has taken to accomplish what he has. Further perusing into his hardware and how he currently ranks third all-time in PPG will make it further obvious that he is a top 10 player ever as he’s currently playing his 10th season. Then if you watched the guy ever play, it’s more clear than anything else.

Orr is not penalized for his current 123rd ranking in points, nor should he be.

173rd was goals, not points.

 

[benfranklin]

I guess you might actually watch him play instead of just reading data.

So were completely ignoring point totals and trophies? Just eye test on who is the fastest, flashiest, best passer, and dangliest?

 

[Video Nasty]

Rank these players


Player A: 1300 points, 1 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 1 Rocket, 0 Cups
Player B: 1457 points, 0 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 0 Rocket, 1 Cup
Player C: 1003 points, 5 Art Ross, 3 Hart, 1 Rocket, 0 Cups
Player D: 1394 points, 0 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 0 Rocket, 1 Cup
Player E: 649 points, 0 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 3 Rocket, 0 Cups
Player F: 899 points, 2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 0 Rocket, 2 Cups
Player G: 1570 points, 1 Art Ross, 3 Hart, 9 Rocket, 1 Cup
Player H: 1590 ponts, 5 Art Ross, 2 Hart, 6 Rocket, 2 Cups

Spoiler: Click for spoiler

The amount of people already putting McDavid in the top 10 is wild. This list doesnt include any of Howe, Gretz, Orr, Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, either Hull, Lidstrom, Bourque, Messier, Bossy, Skaic, Yzerman, Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur, or any goalie.


Player A: 1300 points, 1 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 1 Rocket, 0 Cups Iginla
Player B: 1457 points, 0 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 0 Rocket, 1 Cup Selanne
Player C: 1003 points, 5 Art Ross, 3 Hart, 1 Rocket, 0 Cups McDavid
Player D: 1394 points, 0 Art Ross, 0 Hart, 0 Rocket, 1 Cup Robitaille
Player E: 649 points, 0 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 3 Rocket, 0 Cups Matthews
Player F: 899 points, 2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 0 Rocket, 2 Cups Kucherov
Player G: 1570 points, 1 Art Ross, 3 Hart, 9 Rocket, 1 Cup Ovechkin
Player H: 1590 ponts, 5 Art Ross, 2 Hart, 6 Rocket, 2 Cups Esposito

173rd was goals, not points.

I knew who most of these were at a first glance without hitting spoilers. Make sure to add Pearsons/Lindsays because that also paints a fuller picture. Esposito is comically underrated—I’ll say that much about any ranking that includes him these days.

I’m expected to believe that a player who only has fewer Harts than Gretzky/Howe/Lemieux, fewer Art Rosses than Gretzky/Howe/Lemeiux, and fewer Lindsays than Gretzky isn’t a top ten player when looking at no name and just the stats and accolades? I don’t think so.

Thanks for the clarification on 173rd. According to this logic, Orr can’t be one of the top five greatest playmakers ever because he ranks 73rd in assists and 123rd in points.

 

[benfranklin]

I knew who most of these were at a first glance without hitting spoilers. Make sure to add Pearsons/Lindsays because that also paints a fuller picture. Esposito is comically underrated—I’ll say that much about any ranking that includes him these days.

I’m expected to believe that a player who only has fewer Harts than Gretzky/Howe/Lemieux, fewer Art Rosses than Gretzky/Howe/Lemeiux, and fewer Lindsays than Gretzky isn’t a top ten player when looking at no name and just the stats and accolades? I don’t think so.

Thanks for the clarification on 173rd. According to this logic, Orr can’t be one of the top five greatest playmakers ever because he ranks 73rd in assists and 123rd in points.

Orr is an outlier. Lemieux too as crazy as that is with his health issues.

Cups is the magical number that always gets underrated. If McDavid never wins a Cup, he can finish #2 in scoring behind Gretz and will always be the player who couldnt win it all.

 

[Video Nasty]

Orr is an outlier. Lemieux too as crazy as that is with his health issues.

Cups is the magical number that always gets underrated. If McDavid never wins a Cup, he can finish #2 in scoring behind Gretz and will always be the player who couldnt win it all.

Don’t worry. He’ll win a Cup and it’s probably coming this very postseason. I doubt he’s going to be the outlier in this sport when it comes to that, not based off what we’ve seen up to this point.

 

[Daximus]

I knew who most of these were at a first glance without hitting spoilers. Make sure to add Pearsons/Lindsays because that also paints a fuller picture. Esposito is comically underrated—I’ll say that much about any ranking that includes him these days.

I’m expected to believe that a player who only has fewer Harts than Gretzky/Howe/Lemieux, fewer Art Rosses than Gretzky/Howe/Lemeiux, and fewer Lindsays than Gretzky isn’t a top ten player when looking at no name and just the stats and accolades? I don’t think so.

Thanks for the clarification on 173rd. According to this logic, Orr can’t be one of the top five greatest playmakers ever because he ranks 73rd in assists and 123rd in points.

I think Espo has always suffered from the Orr effect. He has the accolades but it's hard not to attribute a lot of it to playing alongside Orr. Even people who watched this era live have the same conclusion. I don't know because I wasn't there but I'm deferring to them.

 

[Daximus]

Orr is an outlier. Lemieux too as crazy as that is with his health issues.

Cups is the magical number that always gets underrated. If McDavid never wins a Cup, he can finish #2 in scoring behind Gretz and will always be the player who couldnt win it all.

We are very likely to see a lot more all time greats retire without a Cup as we go forward. It's a 32 team league with a salary cap now. Winning a Cup has never been more difficult. Howe did it in a 6 team league, Orr did it with 14-16 teams, Gretz did it with 21 teams, Lemieux did it with 22 teams. There is a going to be a lot of guys who just won't win one going forwards.

 

[Video Nasty]

I think Espo has always suffered from the Orr effect. He has the accolades but it's hard not to attribute a lot of it to playing alongside Orr. Even people who watched this era live have the same conclusion. I don't know because I wasn't there but I'm deferring to them.

I agree that’s the perception, but the same people are also ignoring Esposito’s production when Orr missed time or even seasons where Esposito finished ahead in Hart voting when both were healthy.

There’s plenty of people today who can’t judge the quality of a player or what they actually did, and that’s with all the tools right at our fingertips for us to use at any given second. I’m wary of over-relying on here-say from the old days, when I’m arguing in another thread against Crosby being an all-time great Finals performer when he only had a grand total of two goals in three winning efforts and getting so much pushback, or how they forgot he played about five minutes of Game 7 during his first Cup win. These things are not that long ago. People certainly have forgotten or never known to begin with that Gordie Howe played a mere half of a game during his first Cup winning run, yet constantly gets the praise from the weight of four Cups.

 

[Daximus]

I agree that’s the perception, but the same people are also ignoring Esposito’s production when Orr missed time or even seasons where Esposito finished ahead in Hart voting when both were healthy.

There’s plenty of people today who can’t judge the quality of a player or what they actually did, and that’s with all the tools right at our fingertips for us to use at any given second. I’m wary of over-relying on here-say from the old days, when I’m arguing in another thread against Crosby being an all-time great Finals performer when he only had a grand total of two goals in three winning efforts and getting so much pushback, or how they forgot he played about five minutes of Game 7 during his first Cup win, or how Gordie Howe played a mere half of a game during his first Cup winning run.

If we had more video from that time period we might be able to judge better and compare everyone. There is no doubt that Espo was a great player but I think the heights he achieved with Orr are greater than without.

 

[crowfish]

We are very likely to see a lot more all time greats retire without a Cup as we go forward. It's a 32 team league with a salary cap now. Winning a Cup has never been more difficult. Howe did it in a 6 team league, Orr did it with 14-16 teams, Gretz did it with 21 teams, Lemieux did it with 22 teams. There is a going to be a lot of guys who just won't win one going forwards.

Exactly this.

There will at some point be an all-time great talent (like McDavid), who doesn't win. It is virtually guaranteed to happen at some point in the future. It would have happened with Bourque & Hasek without swapping teams late in their careers, and it almost happened to Ovechkin. Whether McDavid is the first one, or it is the next one after him, doesn't really make a difference to me. I think it makes his career into a story with a sad ending, but it doesn't take away from his greatness (to a significant degree as people claim it would). IF anyone could make a coherent argument that his lack of Cups was because of his talent & not because of bad luck/circumstances, then it would be a logical reason to dock his greatness significantly. But that argument cannot be made since nothing supports it.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

One of the best ways to rank the greatest forwards is to look at the number of Hart trophy votes they earned over the course of their careers (adjusted so that each year is worth the same number of votes). This has a much stronger correlation to subjective rankings than looking at their career point totals, or simply counting the number of trophies they won. (I say "forward" because the Hart is heavily biased in favour of that position - so I wouldn't use this approach to rank goalies and defensemen).

As of today, Connor McDavid already ranks #5 "all-time" (in actuality, going back to WWII) among forwards:

1	Wayne Gretzky	4.99
2	Gordie Howe	3.40
3	Mario Lemieux	2.43
4	Sidney Crosby	1.93
5	Connor McDavid	1.76
6	Bobby Hull	1.63
7	Jaromir Jagr	1.61
8	Jean Beliveau	1.61
9	Alexander Ovechkin	1.59
10	Phil Esposito	1.54
11	Bobby Clarke	1.53
12	Mark Messier	1.15
13	Stan Mikita	1.15
14	Guy Lafleur	1.14
15	Maurice Richard (partial)	1.14

I want to emphasize that the table is based on what McDavid has actually achieved so far. There's zero forecasting or projections.

On the other hand, he still has the least longevity of any player on this list. That probably should knock him down somewhat. I'd probably have him somewhere around 10th to 15th all-time (among all positions) right now, with obviously the potential to keep climbing.

 

[benfranklin]

One of the best ways to rank the greatest forwards is to look at the number of Hart trophy votes they earned over the course of their careers (adjusted so that each year is worth the same number of votes). This has a much stronger correlation to subjective rankings than looking at their career point totals, or simply counting the number of trophies they won. (I say "forward" because the Hart is heavily biased in favour of that position - so I wouldn't use this approach to rank goalies and defensemen).

As of today, Connor McDavid already ranks #5 "all-time" (in actuality, going back to WWII) among forwards:

1	Wayne Gretzky	4.99
2	Gordie Howe	3.40
3	Mario Lemieux	2.43
4	Sidney Crosby	1.93
5	Connor McDavid	1.76
6	Bobby Hull	1.63
7	Jaromir Jagr	1.61
8	Jean Beliveau	1.61
9	Alexander Ovechkin	1.59
10	Phil Esposito	1.54
11	Bobby Clarke	1.53
12	Mark Messier	1.15
13	Stan Mikita	1.15
14	Guy Lafleur	1.14
15	Maurice Richard (partial)	1.14

I want to emphasize that the table is based on what McDavid has actually achieved so far. There's zero forecasting or projections.

On the other hand, he still has the least longevity of any player on this list. That probably should knock him down somewhat. I'd probably have him somewhere around 10th to 15th all-time (among all positions) right now, with obviously the potential to keep climbing.

Thats still completely ignoring any postseason success, which most here will agree is insanely important for a players legacy.

 

[benfranklin]

Don’t worry. He’ll win a Cup and it’s probably coming this very postseason. I doubt he’s going to be the outlier in this sport when it comes to that, not based off what we’ve seen up to this point.

I agree he will get his Cup(s), but I'd be shocked if it is with Edmonton and even more shocked this season. Last season was a fluke with an insane PK% and Skinner playing well. One wasn't unsustainable and the other we all predicted wasn't going to last long.

 

[Regal]

We are very likely to see a lot more all time greats retire without a Cup as we go forward. It's a 32 team league with a salary cap now. Winning a Cup has never been more difficult. Howe did it in a 6 team league, Orr did it with 14-16 teams, Gretz did it with 21 teams, Lemieux did it with 22 teams. There is a going to be a lot of guys who just won't win one going forwards.

While I agree it’s harder than ever, a lot of the old greats also won multiple. I still think the transcendent talents will usually find a way in part because teams will always keep trying to win with them and they’ll be elite for a long time. I’d be surprised if McDavid ended up never winning. Though I wouldn’t expect more than one at this point (though he might).

 

[MessierII]

Hovering around 10 seems about right.