Took a pill in Sbisa
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How were Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe defensively?
Let me guess, you have no idea because people don't care when they produce at the rate that they do
As of TODAY, where is McDavid on the all time list in your opinion?
- Thread starter SladeWilson23
- Start date
How were Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe defensively?
Let me guess, you have no idea because people don't care when they produce at the rate that they do
Terry Yake
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Ghost of Murph
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Currently 10-15 range. Will obviously end up higher if he continues piling up offensive numbers. He has been around long enough to be compared to the offensive greats. Lemieux is the greatest offensive talent in my 50ish years of watching hockey. Nobody currently playing has the skill to top Lemieux. McDavid has the potential to move ahead of some others though.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Howe was very strong defensively and was one of the best defensive forwards of his era.
Especially into the early mid 60s where he was tasked with being the number one offensive producer and number one defensive wall.
As for McDavid, I have him 9th all time. But expect him to reach 5th sooner than later.
JustNapalmIt
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Video Nasty
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Top 5 most talented player to ever step onto the ice.
Top 10 at the moment is fair. I actually understand the people who need a little more.
I think if he and the Oilers win the Cup this postseason, at least half the hockey world writes him into #5 all-time.
From there, he either strengthens his case to be firmly in a new Big Five, or builds a serious argument to be placed over anyone but Gretzky, for those who favor both longevity and peak.
If the back half of his career unfolds as positively as possible, it wouldn’t exactly shock me to see some argue over Gretzky considering the modern day implications.
Top 10 at the moment is fair. I actually understand the people who need a little more.
I think if he and the Oilers win the Cup this postseason, at least half the hockey world writes him into #5 all-time.
From there, he either strengthens his case to be firmly in a new Big Five, or builds a serious argument to be placed over anyone but Gretzky, for those who favor both longevity and peak.
If the back half of his career unfolds as positively as possible, it wouldn’t exactly shock me to see some argue over Gretzky considering the modern day implications.
To me that game 7 last year was a chance to seal his legacy. They pull that off I’ll move him to number 5 right now
But since they didn’t I’d say 5-10 and moving up
But since they didn’t I’d say 5-10 and moving up
Video Nasty
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So maybe some of the other guys in the league currently are f***ing awesome too?
LDX
Registered User
I also believe there is now a top 5 in hockey, rather than a Big 4. I would hope we grew enough as a specie to understand the context around a Cup rather than blaming a poor guy for things he does not control.
Video Nasty
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McDavid was injured last season. He simply played through it for most of the year, but my main point is as follows.
It’s going to be uncomfortable for people to consider, because there’s a lot of childhood nostalgia wrapped up in it saying otherwise, be it first-hand or legends told around the campfire, but maybe just maybe, Kucherov and MacKinnon are better than every other player minus Gretzky that Lemieux had to contend with.
Look at 1991-1992 as an example. He played 16 games less than his own teammate, Stevens, who was second in the league—are we going to pretend he was an elite? All we ever hear is how Mario played with bums. Pretend Gretzky doesn’t exist as usual.
Brett Hull is our next highest point total and PPG, with 109 in 73. The rest of the top 10 rounds out with all players playing 79 or the full 80 games, and scoring from 102-107 points. That is during a season where league scoring was 11% higher than last season. In some of those situations, it all comes down to circumstance and who the competition happened to be and how they performed during a given year. Look at a year where he lost and would have won with more games played like 1989-1990. Scoring was 18% higher than last season and Messier and Yzerman topped out at 129 and 127 while missing just one game apiece.
Kucherov is better than anyone Lemieux played against other than Gretzky, who is better than everyone ever. While I’m not comfortable to put MacKinnon in that group just yet, he certainly seems to be playing his way into that distinction as well.
BlueMed
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The problem with these posts is that lack of specification regarding what we are even ranking here. Is it skill, points, or significance to a particular franchise? You're not going to get a consensus when everyone is ranking him based on something different.
This gets asked every couple months .
We all know he's going to go down as one of the greatest. Top 10 ....then top 5.
Then it will be the discussions and opinions on which ( if any ) of the other 4 he better than. Or not.
As of present time ...... Oilers and Aves could trade Mack for McD and it would be pretty much a wash
We all know he's going to go down as one of the greatest. Top 10 ....then top 5.
Then it will be the discussions and opinions on which ( if any ) of the other 4 he better than. Or not.
As of present time ...... Oilers and Aves could trade Mack for McD and it would be pretty much a wash
Assuming his career ended TODAY (which is what the OP asked), he would be a top 50 NHL player of all time IMO and the biggest "what if".
Currently 173 overall in scoring
5 Art Ross's
3 Hart's
4 Lindsay's
1 Rocket
1 Conn Smythe (losing)
0 Cups
0 Olympic Golds
We all know his ceiling is a top 5 player of all time, but he needs the longevity and the Cups now.
Currently 173 overall in scoring
5 Art Ross's
3 Hart's
4 Lindsay's
1 Rocket
1 Conn Smythe (losing)
0 Cups
0 Olympic Golds
We all know his ceiling is a top 5 player of all time, but he needs the longevity and the Cups now.
Luigi Lemieux
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Kucherov isn't better than 5 time art ross winner Jagr, not a chance. And prime Lemieux never lost a scoring race to Jagr. And certainly would never lose to Draisaitl, Kucherov, or MacKinnon. That's the main difference that keeps him from that first tier. Gretzky or Lemieux wouldn't lose to anyone in their prime
5th
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
McDavid
I would have him 3rd if they won last year. I think he will be 2nd at the end of his career.
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
McDavid
I would have him 3rd if they won last year. I think he will be 2nd at the end of his career.
And the what if is half what if nothing happened to McDavid, and the other half is what if Oilers had a proper management team when they had McDavid.
Zirakzigil
Global Moderator
Biggest what if is Lemieux, maybe followed by Lindros.
Id say Mcdavid is currently top 20 today. There is a lot to be said about longevity, cup wins, etc. Hes one of the top 10 forwards (today) to play the game. After that you got to add in defense and goaltenders to that list.
IF his career ended today:
Connor McDavid will have had 8 top 5 MVP finishes in his 9 seasons
Steve Yzerman, Mark Messier & Joe Sakic had 6 top 5 MVP finishes in 67 combined seasons
There are many more examples I could use, but I chose that one to make it clear how insane it is to call him "top 50" today. There is no such thing as a top 50 player who was the best player in the world more times than 3 legendary names like that (in 13% of the seasons played). Also, top 5 ceiling means you don't understand what a ceiling is, because top 5 is closer to his floor than his ceiling.
Top 15. No Cup hurts him. But we all judge this shit how we see fit. There’s no real answer or argument to be had.
Video Nasty
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I wasn’t viewing Jagr as competition here, so I agree—Kucherov is not better than Jagr. I’ve always maintained that Jagr is the best player drafted between Lemieux and McDavid.
As for Draisaitl, yes, he did outscore McDavid once, but people often forget the context. McDavid missed seven games that season due to injury and played the entire year rehabbing a serious knee injury from the final game of 2018-2019—an injury for which surgery was recommended. Instead, he opted to forgo it, start up the new season six months later and played through it.
Last year was a similar story. The guy was clearly injured all season long and was barely beaten by two healthy elite talents who had career years. McDavid doesn’t need excuses made, but when people start using his couple of supposed missteps as excuses to ding him, it has to be countered.
The irony with McDavid is that he’s proof of how players who sit out to preserve their PPG or lean on injuries as excuses often get celebrated more—I am not commenting on Lemieux himself here, though I’ll never miss the opportunity to say he could have at least stretched more, if nothing else. Whether it’s wise or not on the Oilers’ part, McDavid consistently returns early from injuries. Yet, instead of being applauded, critics use his “failures” as evidence that he’s not as great as advertised. It’s dishonest to think that a player who averaged 2 PPG for 57 games after an early upper body injury and just before a new lower body injury that shut him down wouldn’t have won the Art Ross with even just a little more health.
In a way, he’s a victim of circumstance not going his way. If Kucherov and MacKinnon don’t have career years, he very well still could have won the Art Ross with 132 points. It’s a total that would have won it in every other season outside his own, during his career.
The reality is that if McDavid keeps this pace, most of the hockey world will eventually rank him above Lemieux, simply because playing the games matters. If McDavid surpasses 2,000 points, racks up something like 7-8 Art Ross trophies, 4-5 Hart Trophies, 5-6 Ted Lindsays, and so on, few outside of Pittsburgh will rank him lower. He already has a Conn Smythe without a Cup—matching Patrick Roy’s total wouldn’t surprise me.
And I say all this as someone who considers Gretzky and Lemieux my two favorites, with McDavid third. I firmly believe Gretzky and Lemieux will always be the better players unless McDavid somehow unlocks a final, unknown form. But I can’t just dismiss McDavid’s trajectory and the possibility of where he’ll rank in all-time status.
zar
Bleed Blue
For those arguing longevity… he’s already played 3 more games than Orr ever did.
He’s 5th right now. He has skills and does things we have never seen any other hockey player do.
If he wins one Cup in today’s era then he’s another guy that we can debate about when we rank the top 5 rather than the top 4.
He’s 5th right now. He has skills and does things we have never seen any other hockey player do.
If he wins one Cup in today’s era then he’s another guy that we can debate about when we rank the top 5 rather than the top 4.
In contention for 5th already.
Now in order to make it a "big 5" I would argue he needs a cup(preferably two)+a handful of more great seasons.
Now in order to make it a "big 5" I would argue he needs a cup(preferably two)+a handful of more great seasons.
