As of 2021 - is Crosby vs Ovechkin's all-time ranking finalized, or can one still surpass the other?

[Big Phil]

I think we are sort of seeing just how much the Pens depend on Crosby. He's been out the last two games, maybe for Game 7 too. The Pens blew two goal leads both games. They looked sluggish.

The good news is the Pens as a franchise have never lost a road playoff Game 7 in their history.

 

[toothlessgoon]

Crosby is suffering way too many concussions. He is going to play himself into severe brain damage in old age. He needs to retire now. And if he does, Ovechkin surpasses him on the all-time list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The amount of wild guesses per sentence in that post is outstanding...

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby is suffering way too many concussions. He is going to play himself into severe brain damage in old age. He needs to retire now. And if he does, Ovechkin surpasses him on the all-time list.

Very telling that Crosby needs severe brain damage for ovechkin to become a better player. Gtfo

 

[Big Phil]

One thing is pretty certain here, Crosby getting hurt at 34 years old, 17 seasons in the NHL, is pretty much unanimously thought of as why the Pens lost to the Rangers. Because he was on fire prior to that Trouba hit. The Pens were likely to take the Rangers out in 5 games, in fact, they were up 2-0 in Game 5 when Crosby got hurt. So I don't know if everyone else realizes this, but that is telling that Crosby still has that sort of impact.

 

[Midnight Judges]

One thing is pretty certain here, Crosby getting hurt at 34 years old, 17 seasons in the NHL, is pretty much unanimously thought of as why the Pens lost to the Rangers. Because he was on fire prior to that Trouba hit. The Pens were likely to take the Rangers out in 5 games, in fact, they were up 2-0 in Game 5 when Crosby got hurt. So I don't know if everyone else realizes this, but that is telling that Crosby still has that sort of impact.

That's pure history revision.

Crosby played game 7, was a non-factor, and the Penguins lost.

 

[Big Phil]

That's pure history revision.

Crosby played game 7, was a non-factor, and the Penguins lost.

Well, it just happened last week, you know? This isn't one of those things where you weren't there to see it. I saw it. The Pens were in full control of that series, and even in Game 5. Crosby goes down and it sort of sparked the Rangers. It is what it is, hey, you can't blame the Rangers, they are still going to try to win regardless, but they were dead in the water before that.

 

[bobholly39]

One thing is pretty certain here, Crosby getting hurt at 34 years old, 17 seasons in the NHL, is pretty much unanimously thought of as why the Pens lost to the Rangers. Because he was on fire prior to that Trouba hit. The Pens were likely to take the Rangers out in 5 games, in fact, they were up 2-0 in Game 5 when Crosby got hurt. So I don't know if everyone else realizes this, but that is telling that Crosby still has that sort of impact.

I think if Crosby doesn't get hurt - there's a very good chance Pens win in 5. And if not 5, in 6. And if not 6, in 7.

Him being taken out definitely changed the dynamic of the series and was a turning point.

But - your wording is too strong. It's not unanimous and nothing is certain - Pens lost, when they shouldn't have, and that's on them, and it's very possible it still happens without Crosby being injured.

But yes - outside of his injury Sidney Crosby was having an amazing round 1. Probably top 5 players across whole league in round 1 - and could have a case for as much as #1 (but so many great individual performers in round 1 this year). Can still be a very, very impactful player at his age.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Two minor league goalies played 6 of 7 games, the 7th game was played by an NHL goalie whose foot was still broken (or whatever it was) and who hadn't played in over a month.

That said, Gallant said that his team was soft...so Trouba came out and elbowed Guentzel and Crosby (the two best players by a mile in the series) in the head and it went a long way to solving their issues in the best league in the world...

 

[Big Phil]

I think if Crosby doesn't get hurt - there's a very good chance Pens win in 5. And if not 5, in 6. And if not 6, in 7.

Him being taken out definitely changed the dynamic of the series and was a turning point.

But - your wording is too strong. It's not unanimous and nothing is certain - Pens lost, when they shouldn't have, and that's on them, and it's very possible it still happens without Crosby being injured.

But yes - outside of his injury Sidney Crosby was having an amazing round 1. Probably top 5 players across whole league in round 1 - and could have a case for as much as #1 (but so many great individual performers in round 1 this year). Can still be a very, very impactful player at his age.

I suppose it was strong wording. Yes, anything can happen. Who knows. The Pens certainly were in complete control of that series though. Too bad.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Crosby was absolutely the x-factor in that series until he got hurt, when he went down it immediately and glaringly had a demoralizing effect on the Penguins. That said, the Penguins falling apart when Crosby is out is actually an uncommon occurrence, perhaps it's because Malkin didn't fill the vacuum like he usually does.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby was absolutely the x-factor in that series until he got hurt, when he went down it immediately and glaringly had a demoralizing effect on the Penguins. That said, the Penguins falling apart when Crosby is out is actually an uncommon occurrence, perhaps it's because Malkin didn't fill the vacuum like he usually does.

Malkin is 35 he just isn't that type of player anymore.

That's pure history revision.

Crosby played game 7, was a non-factor, and the Penguins lost.

Crosby was a force in this years playoffs, Ovechkin not so much, get over it.

 

[The Panther]

I am not convinced that Crosby was that big a factor in the Penguins' loss in round one this year. Crosby put up some impressive points over six games, but how many goals against was he on for? It was a lot. I'd say he was "high event".

Anyway, Crosby and Ovechkin are both aging very well. They're unusual in how productive they've been into the mid-30s.

 

[wetcoast]

I am not convinced that Crosby was that big a factor in the Penguins' loss in round one this year. Crosby put up some impressive points over six games, but how many goals against was he on for? It was a lot. I'd say he was "high event".

Anyway, Crosby and Ovechkin are both aging very well. They're unusual in how productive they've been into the mid-30s.

When looked at in the team context Crosby was a force as ES and overall for the series.

Louis Domingue had a very unique entrance to the series but man he just isn't even an average NHL goalie is he?

Even Jarry looked Rusty with his first game back.

The advanced stats also support my initial eye test assertion, these playoffs go to Crosby over Ovi and it's not even really close.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Looking at the R-ON/OFF data, the Penguins were 40% more effective at five-on-five when Crosby was on the ice during the 2022 playoffs. Obviously that's a very small sample size, but that's roughly on par with the average he's sustained over his career. (And that's consistent with what the "eye test" shows).

McDavid's on-ice stats (so far) are ridiculous. Historically good, as in 99th percentile over the past sixty years. (In reality they're even better than that since most of the players at the very top of the R-ON/OFF data tends to be 3rd pair defensemen and bottom six forwards getting softer matchups).

In the playoffs, the Oilers have been playing at a basement-dwelling level without McDavid (0.5:1 ratio). When he's on the ice, they've outscored their opponents at the level you'd typically see on a dynasty team (2.63:1 ratio). Obviously we're looking at a ten-game stretch, but in terms of impact on goal differential, this is one of the greatest playoff performances of all-time (so far) - not that anybody who's watching these games needs fancy stats to draw this conclusion.

 

[wetcoast]

This might belong in the other Daver year by year thread between the 2 players but this year is pretty close but clear for me as just Crosby adding a little more distance here.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby was better in the reg season n playoffs this year. The needle moves a tiny bit more

 

[JackSlater]

With how deep both guys are in their careers this year really does next to nothing for the comparison. Crosby was probably better on a game by game basis, Ovechkin probably brought more value due to playing more. Similar to a lot of their careers. I did like how Ovechkin played this year more than I have in a long time.

As with before, the only thing that will realistically change things is if/when Ovechkin scores his 895th goal and he gets a boost compared to Crosby because Gretzky didn't score more.

 

[WarriorofTime]

If injuries weren't a thing, Crosby would be quite a bit ahead, but we live in the real world where you can't turn injuries to "OFF", and the only real answer is Crosby is a bit better but has not put major separation between himself and Ovechkin. It's always been assumed Crosby would play longer since he is 2 years younger, but with Ovechkin chasing a milestone and Crosby's extensive injury history, that is far from a sure thing.

 

[filinski77]

FWIW: 82 game paces this RS

Crosby = 37 goals, 100 points
Ovechkin = 53 goals, 96 points

 

[Rengorlex]

If injuries weren't a thing, Crosby would be quite a bit ahead, but we live in the real world where you can't turn injuries to "OFF", and the only real answer is Crosby is a bit better but has not put major separation between himself and Ovechkin. It's always been assumed Crosby would play longer since he is 2 years younger, but with Ovechkin chasing a milestone and Crosby's extensive injury history, that is far from a sure thing.

The issue I have with this is that the point of the game really isn't to amass the best regular seasons or hit round scoring totals. If I had to build a winning team around one of them it wouldn't be a close decision and I doubt there's a GM in the league who would have to think twice about it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The issue I have with this is that the point of the game really isn't to amass the best regular seasons or hit round scoring totals. If I had to build a winning team around one of them it wouldn't be a close decision and I doubt there's a GM in the league who would have to think twice about it.

I certainly agree I'd take a healthy Crosby over a healthy Ovechkin fairly comfortably, but if Crosby is liable to be out games for the Playoffs and you can count on Ovechkin to be in the lineup, that factors in for me as well.

I often find that it's a bit circular when people use the "build a winning team argument" because it presupposes that Crosby was always destined to play on more successful teams throughout his career, I would argue the Penguins have been much better built/constructed than the Capitals. Malkin >> Backstrom, Letang > Carlson, Fleury > the line of goaltenders that Capitals have had throughout.

 

[JackSlater]

The Crosby/Ovechkin comparison is interesting mainly due to the injuries. If both were perfectly healthy you'd probably have similar enough peaks to make a draw, but then Crosby would walk away with it. With the injuries, there are many different ways to assess them. I prefer Crosby in the comparison but I can understand someone who is focused on career value and skeptical of Crosby's peak due to injury putting Ovechkin ahead.

 

[Rengorlex]

I certainly agree I'd take a healthy Crosby over a healthy Ovechkin fairly comfortably, but if Crosby is liable to be out games for the Playoffs and you can count on Ovechkin to be in the lineup, that factors in for me as well.

I often find that it's a bit circular when people use the "build a winning team argument" because it presupposes that Crosby was always destined to play on more successful teams throughout his career, I would argue the Penguins have been much better built/constructed than the Capitals. Malkin >> Backstrom, Letang > Carlson, Fleury > the line of goaltenders that Capitals have had throughout.

The two main reasons why I'm skeptical about Ovechkin are

1) his consistent inability to significantly improve his teams results at 5vs5 post 2011 -- as he visually shifted from an all-around dominating force into an escape-from-coverage sniper with an awful overall game, this is consistent with how the eye-test views Ovechkin past his peak. His on-ice impact in this timeframe is a major negative outlier compared to other players of all-time caliber.

2) his leadership -- this may be just narratives or not, but the issues like the controller disconnected sequence in a playoff game, and the over-emphasis that the entire franchise has put on Ovechkin's individual goalscoring achievements. At times it seemed the entire team was there to make Ovechkin's goalscoring possible. How many times has Sidney Crosby chasing 100 points been the focus of the Penguins? Has it ever even been a thing? A captain who puts huge energy on chasing individual milestones and plays defence with a lackluster effort -- is it really all a coincidence that his teams seemingly always broke down in the biggest moments? Maybe it is, but I am skeptical.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The two main reasons why I'm skeptical about Ovechkin are

1) his consistent inability to significantly improve his teams results at 5vs5 post 2011 -- as he visually shifted from an all-around dominating force into an escape-from-coverage sniper with an awful overall game, this is consistent with how the eye-test views Ovechkin past his peak. His on-ice impact in this timeframe is a major negative outlier compared to other players of all-time caliber.

2) his leadership -- this may be just narratives or not, but the issues like the controller disconnected sequence in a playoff game, and the over-emphasis that the entire franchise has put on Ovechkin's individual goalscoring achievements. At times it seemed the entire team was there to make Ovechkin's goalscoring possible. How many times has Sidney Crosby chasing 100 points been the focus of the Penguins? Has it ever even been a thing? A captain who puts huge energy on chasing individual milestones and plays defence with a lackluster effort -- is it really all a coincidence that his teams seemingly always broke down in the biggest moments? Maybe it is, but I am skeptical.

Totally understand where you're going with for the first... the second I am bit less sympathetic to. I don't really buy that the "C" on the jersey carries special significance. Everyone knows what Ovechkin's game and what his role is to help the team win. I agree he sacrifices defense for the sake of his offense, but his offense is what helps the team win, you don't want him to be doing the opposite.

A typical 3rd line player would have to be a bit thick in the head to not realize that just because Ovechkin conserves energy in a certain way, they should be expending energy in a different way, and at the NHL level, I don't really see that as a real concern. I think "leadership" is a real thing at the Youth/Collegiate level, at the pro level, I think everybody in the room is capable of being a "leader".

I also do not believe the Capitals have ever sacrificed winning for the sake of Ovechkin's goal scoring. I've heard that claim a few times, but it's never really held up for me. Ovechkin is the best goal scorer on the planet, and you want him to score goals and that helps the team's chances to win. Putting Ovechkin in the best position to score goals is the best case scenario for the Capitals. 2021-22 is a great example. Pretty lousy team overall IMO but still very reliant on Ovechkin's goal scoring to comfortably make the postseason.