As a GM, which player do you take? (contract considered)

[MichaelFarrell]

The contract factor is a huge decision maker for me. I think Marner is the better player but Tkachuk’s contract is awesome.

 

[Habsrule]

Marner is by far the more skilled player.

I will take Tkachuk though because I’ll take 5 years over 2 years and also Tkachuk plays way more of a playoff style of game. I’m not blaming Marner for the Leafs playoff woes at all but hockey is a weird sport where the rules somehow change for the playoffs. The games get a lot more physical and tighter checking. That plays into Tkachuk’s game.

 

[pld459666]

Marner is the better player.

Hes also more than 2.6 million better.

 

[Xspyrit]

That's an absolutely huuuuuuuge "if". Which is the point.

Brady so far has been a 60 point guy, Marner 100 points.

Have Brady actually perform at this level for more than one half season to convince people of his level moving forward, and then we'll talk.

As for Marner - last season he paced for 110+ points. But we're assuming he's a 95 point guy moving forward right?

Well, for people who have followed the Sens everyday for years, that "if" is not that huge...

You realize that Brady has turned 23 y/o this season right?

19-20-21 y/o, Brady was a 0.63 PPG player, last year at 22 he was 0.85 PPG and this year over PPG

The Sens have been on a earth scorched rebuild since 2018 (100% of the roster from the 2017 playoffs was traded or let go), there has been more and more talent on the team over the years even though the progress in the standings has not been significant yet (another discussion though, Dj Dorion's impact)

In 2020-21, Tkachuk was playing with pure rookies in Norris and Batherson. Then played with 19-20 y/o Stutzle and now has the chance to have Giroux to help with his veteran presence. Tkachuk will have the chance to play with either Stutzle or Norris as his centers and Batherson/Giroux at RW

As for Marner, his pace last season seems more like the outlier, he has been around 1.15 PPG all the other seasons since he "broke out" in 2018-19. His 2 best seasons have been 94 pts and 97 pts so far so yes I am assuming he is a 95 pts guy

So this is it, we might be comparing a 85 pts guy with a 95 pts guy. The 95 pts guy produces a bit more but the poll is asking to take age and contracts in consideration... very simple

Whats next - Rantanen vs Hyman poll? Close production, only 3 years difference in age. Lets make a poll?

HF is ridiculus sometimes

Talk about ridiculous... well this is a ridiculous comparison. First, you have the age difference the other way around, Hyman (Marner) being older than Rantanen (Tkachuk). And you're also comparing 26 y/o vs 30 y/o with 23 y/o vs 25 y/o, hopefully I don't have to explain why this is also apples and oranges?

And then even my dog knows that Hyman's numbers are circumstantial as he's been glued to a top-3 forward in NHL history... Hyman has played 50% of his ES shifts with McJesus and 28 of his ESP are with him. And 19 more pts on the PP. Also been racking some pts with Draisaitl and RNH, Leon being seen as another top forward in the league.

Even Marner has been playing with forwards in their prime like Matthews, Tavares, Nylander...

Tkachuk has mostly played with YOUNG rookies (Norris, Batherson, Stutzle)

 

[Xspyrit]

i've never seen a Leafs player get underrated in a poll like this before

I guess there's a first time for everything

How exactly?

IF age and contracts are taken in consideration, what exactly is the argument for Marner considering this :

Marner is on pace for 95 pts at $10,903,000 AAV
Tkachuk is on pace for 84 pts at $8,205,714 AAV

13% more production for 33% more cap and only 2 years left (vs 5)

Marner is the better player.

Hes also more than 2.6 million better.

Can you explain this then?

Marner is on pace for 95 pts at $10,903,000 AAV
Tkachuk is on pace for 84 pts at $8,205,714 AAV

13% more production for 33% more cap


Is it because Marner plays PK? Well, Tkachuk is the ultimate pest who brings intimidation, toughness and all kind of intangibles. Ask people who played against him how much they liked it

 

[bert]

Age 21 season:

Marner 94 points in 82 games, Tkachuk pace of 52 points in 82 games

Age 22 season:

Marner pace of 93 points in 82 games, Tkachuk pace of 69 points in 82 games

Age 23 season:

Marner pace of 100 points in 82 games, Tkachuk pace of 82 points per 82 games

Age 24 season:

Marner pace of 111 poitns in 82 games - Tkachuk ???

Do you think this somehow helps Tkachuk to compare age for age?

This is Marner, by a very significant gap.

You cant even count properly.

 

[bert]

Beyond Brady Tkachuk being cheaper, which has nothing to do with who the better player is, there is no legitimate argument for him over Marner you can't make it, It's impossible.

The poll says different. The arguments in this thread say different. The style of play and how unique Brady is says different. Seems like you're in the minority here.

 

[swiftwin]

Marner is 2 years and 4 months older

Not really relevant. Marner was drafted 3 years before Tkachuk and has 3 more years of development .

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The poll says different. The arguments in this thread say different. The style of play and how unique Brady is says different. Seems like you're in the minority here.

The poll is wrong, because everything they have done in their careers up to this point prove the poll wrong

 

[bert]

The poll is wrong, because everything they have done in their careers up to this point prove the poll wrong

Lol come on man. The poll is quite clearly from here on out. What they did 3 years ago when one player is 3 drafts ahead has nothing to do with the future. No one cares what you bought the house for 5 years ago. Its what its worth now and moving forward. Fact of the matter is Tkachuk is younger, is locked up for 3 more years at a way lower cap hit. He has closed the gap as they both get closer to their primes.

The poll is not wrong your fandom is impacting your ability to be impartial.

The questions isnt who the better player is over the tenure of their careers if so Marner would clearly be winning. Its who would you take going forward all things considered.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Lol come on man. The poll is quite clearly from here on out. What they did 3 years ago when one player is 3 drafts ahead has nothing to do with the future. No one cares what you bought the house for 5 years ago. Its what its worth now and moving forward. Fact of the matter is Tkachuk is younger, is locked up for 3 more years at a way lower cap hit. He has closed the gap as they both get closer to their primes.

The poll is not wrong your fandom is impacting your ability to be impartial.

The questions isnt who the better player is over the tenure of their careers if so Marner would clearly be winning. Its who would you take going forward all things considered.

The poll is wrong because there is zero argument that Brady is better than Marner, he isn't at all, being cheaper,or younger doesn't mean he's a better player, and short of a career ending injury for Marner he's not going to be anytime soon.

 

[bert]

The poll is wrong because there is zero argument that Brady is better than Marner, he isn't at all, being cheaper,or younger doesn't mean he's a better player, and short of a career ending injury for Marner he's not going to be anytime soon.

You are having a hard time being impartial. Its alot closer than you seem to think. Tkachuk is also more unique.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

You are having a hard time being impartial. Its alot closer than you seem to think. Tkachuk is also more unique.

I'd be willing to listen to a valid argument as to why Brady is a better player today than Marner, but so far all you talk about is "well he's cheaper."

So what? we are comparing talent level, If anything being cheaper works in Marner's favor because better players tend to get paid more, that's not always the case but in this case it is, and when It's not the case that tends to change quickly.

All I.want is a valid reasons Brady is better and "he's cheaper." is not it.

 

[Xspyrit]

The poll is wrong, because everything they have done in their careers up to this point prove the poll wrong

Explain your thought process to come up with this. That could be interesting

The poll is wrong because there is zero argument that Brady is better than Marner, he isn't at all, being cheaper,or younger doesn't mean he's a better player, and short of a career ending injury for Marner he's not going to be anytime soon.

ok so another one with the inability to read?

Where does it say in the OP that it is about who is BETTER?

I give you 1000$ if you find it

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Explain your thought process to come up with this. That could be interesting



ok so another one with the inability to read?

Where does it say in the OP that it is about who is BETTER?

I give you 1000$ if you find it

Explain your thought process to come up with this. That could be interesting



ok so another one with the inability to read?

Where does it say in the OP that it is about who is BETTER?

I give you 1000$ if you find it

Of course it is, otherwise about 64% of people would be knowingly, and willingly taking the objectively worse player and that would be a profoundly ridiculous thing to do.

 

[ricky0034]

How exactly?

IF age and contracts are taken in consideration, what exactly is the argument for Marner considering this :

Marner is on pace for 95 pts at $10,903,000 AAV
Tkachuk is on pace for 84 pts at $8,205,714 AAV

13% more production for 33% more cap and only 2 years left (vs 5)



Can you explain this then?

Marner is on pace for 95 pts at $10,903,000 AAV
Tkachuk is on pace for 84 pts at $8,205,714 AAV

13% more production for 33% more cap


Is it because Marner plays PK? Well, Tkachuk is the ultimate pest who brings intimidation, toughness and all kind of intangibles. Ask people who played against him how much they liked it

fun fact: years other than this year exist

Object permanence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

this is like the non Leafs version of last year when Leafs fans were hyperfocusing on only one year to pretend Matthews was close to McDavid then surprise surprise McDavid is back to being way ahead of him again this year

 

[Xspyrit]

Of course it is, otherwise about 64% of people would be knowingly, and willingly taking the objectively worse player and that would be a profoundly ridiculous thing to do.

I still have no idea what you are going about. The OP is pretty clear :

Which player (and their contracts) would you take as a GM?

Why are you talking about another subject with different parameters?

fun fact: years other than this year exist

Object permanence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

this is like the non Leafs version of last year when Leafs fans were hyperfocusing on only one year to pretend Matthews was close to McDavid then surprise surprise McDavid is back to being way ahead of him again this year

OK so what makes you think that Tkachuk will regress and that Marner will progress in the near future?

Tkachuk just turned 23 y/o this season, he's on a team with evolving talent (and even better, might finally have NHL management and coaching with the imminent sale). What if he keeps playing with Tim Stutzle who scored 82 pts in 88 games while he was 20 years old? What if he plays with 2-way center Josh Norris who scored 47 goals in 91 games while he was 21-22 y/o?

Marner has a 1.15 PPG this season. I don't know but it looks on par with his usual prime self

2018-19 : 1.15 PPG
2019-20 : 1.14 PPG
2020-21 : 1.22 PPG
2021-22 : 1.35 PPG
2022-23 : 1.15 PPG

Marner has a 33% higher AAV and only 2 years left before UFA. Tkachuk has 5 years left

Based on the information above, which contract do you take?

 

[notbias]

Marner has a 1.15 PPG this season. I don't know but it looks on par with his usual prime self

2018-19 : 1.15 PPG
2019-20 : 1.14 PPG
2020-21 : 1.22 PPG
2021-22 : 1.35 PPG
2022-23 : 1.15 PPG

All of a sudden what they did 3 years ago is relevant.......

OK so what makes you think that Tkachuk will regress and that Marner will progress in the near future?

Tkachuk just turned 23 y/o this season, he's on a team with evolving talent (and even better, might finally have NHL management and coaching with the imminent sale). What if he keeps playing with Tim Stutzle who scored 82 pts in 88 games while he was 20 years old? What if he plays with 2-way center Josh Norris who scored 47 goals in 91 games while he was 21-22 y/o?

8 million is a lot to pay a passenger on a line. If he is only breaking PPG by playing with those two, he is overpaid.

 

[bsu]

For the Ducks it's close, overall it's Marner.

 

[Xspyrit]

All of a sudden what they did 3 years ago is relevant.......

Again, same problem, have to literally explain everything. If you don't see the difference between the subject of this poll and the fact that Marner's current PPG is on par with his usual production during his prime, I really don't know what to tell you. I think I'd rather just close the discussion

8 million is a lot to pay a passenger on a line. If he is only breaking PPG by playing with those two, he is overpaid.

What in the hell is that argument?

Brady Tkachuk... a passenger?

 

[Bouboumaster]

Matthew Tkachuk 27 GP 15 Pts
Keith Tkachuk 89GP 56 Pts

The funny thing is the family chokes harder in playoffs than Marner despite their “playoff style”

Maybe Brady will be the one to break the teens?

He still has the benefit of the doubt in my book
Mariner, meanwhile, is a proven/certified playoffs choker

 

[swiftwin]

Matthew Tkachuk 27 GP 15 Pts
Keith Tkachuk 89GP 56 Pts

The funny thing is the family chokes harder in playoffs than Marner despite their “playoff style”

What do they have to do with Brady???

Doesn't Marner have an older brother? How has he performed in the NHL playoffs? Should we judge Mitch based on his brother?

 

[wetcoast]

Matthew Tkachuk 27 GP 15 Pts
Keith Tkachuk 89GP 56 Pts

The funny thing is the family chokes harder in playoffs than Marner despite their “playoff style”

I got this same feeling watching Keith alot in his time in Winnipeg.

Man he just looked like a guy who would excel in the playoffs and it just never did.

Same thing with both of his sons, it really is mindboggling.

 

[CornerStone61]

All of a sudden what they did 3 years ago is relevant.......



8 million is a lot to pay a passenger on a line. If he is only breaking PPG by playing with those two, he is overpaid.

He literally leads the team in points. In what way is he a passenger?

 

[CornerStone61]

That's an absolutely huuuuuuuge "if". Which is the point.

Brady so far has been a 60 point guy, Marner 100 points.

Have Brady actually perform at this level for more than one half season to convince people of his level moving forward, and then we'll talk.

As for Marner - last season he paced for 110+ points. But we're assuming he's a 95 point guy moving forward right?

Whats next - Rantanen vs Hyman poll? Close production, only 3 years difference in age. Lets make a poll?

HF is ridiculus sometimes

While I don't care to get into this debate, you've said this twice now and it's factually incorrect. Marner has never broken 100 points. Yes I know he likely would've done it had he played 82 games last year but the fact is that you can't label him a 100 point player of he hasn't done it yet.

If Marner is a 100 point player based on last year then Brady should be considered a 70 point player at the least. Widening the gap to 40 points to further your point is just arguing in bad faith.