Art Ross thread (2018/19)

[Tasty Biscuits]

Business as usual for McD. He'd probably still take it even if he wasn't recently reunited with Drai, but now that that's happened, I don't see anyone else able to challenge.

 

[MadLuke]

Having 3 rosses before turning 23 is more than separating yourself. It doesn't matter by how many pts you win, as long as you win.

Not really Art Ross is not a stanley cup, it really really does not matter if you end up at 106 or 108 points with one meaning you win the Art Ross and not the others.

If you win always against the same players by just 2 points, you obviously didn't separate yourself from that players, it is an illusion created by a binary win or loose of a useless trophy.

If you beat different player each year and no one was constantly close, than yes you separated yourself.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

Not really Art Ross is not a stanley cup, it really really does not matter if you end up at 106 or 108 points with one meaning you win the Art Ross and not the others.

If you win always against the same players by just 2 points, you obviously didn't separate yourself from that players, it is an illusion created by a binary win or loose of a useless trophy.

If you beat different player each year and no one was constantly close, than yes you separated yourself.

This was a really poor rebuttal to the post @KoozNetsOff 92 made.

 

[MadLuke]

This was a really poor rebuttal to the post @KoozNetsOff 92 made.

How so
Season 1
Player A: 102 pts
Player B: 99 pts

Season 2
Player A: 107 pts
Player B: 104 pts

Season 3
Player A: 109 pts
Player B: 107 pts

did Player A separated himself from player B, would the person ever say that if you insert a player in that league that was scoring 115 pts in average those 3 season winning the Ross over player A ?

It seem pretty obvious that point separation is how you separate yourself, not with the winning or not of a trophy that is not even the goal of the game played.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

This was a really poor rebuttal to the post @KoozNetsOff 92 made.

It was actually a good response to a poor original post.

 

[MessierII]

Crosby and Kucherov would have given him a run for his money, had they not missed games to injury. Obviously injuries happen but it's not like McDavid was scoring at a clip that no one else in the NHL could match.

I mean you could make the same argument with Jagr. Or even Gretz and Mario. Gretz and Mario were always close but if one was hurt the other would run away with it. Jagr had Forsberg/Selanne/Sakic on his tail every year in terms of PPG.

 

[MadLuke]

Jagr had Forsberg/Selanne/Sakic on his tail every year in terms of PPG.

Peak Jagr from 98-99, 99-00 did distance himself significantly, he even won the Ross playing less than 65 games.

98-99:

1.	Jaromir Jagr • PIT	1.57
2.	Teemu Selanne* • MDA	1.43
3.	Joe Sakic* • COL	1.32
4.	Eric Lindros* • PHI	1.31
5.	Peter Forsberg* • COL	1.24

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

99-00:

1.	Jaromir Jagr • PIT	1.52
2.	Joe Sakic* • COL	1.35
3.	Pavel Bure* • FLA	1.27
4.	Pierre Turgeon • STL	1.27
5.	Paul Kariya* • MDA	1.16
6.	Mark Recchi* • PHI	1.11
7.	Owen Nolan • SJS	1.08
8.	Teemu Selanne* • MDA	1.08

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That around .15 ppg, 12 points by 82 games scoring rate above everyone else.

Gretzky some season was in a completely different tier than everyone else, even if everyone else played 80-84 games he would have won the ross playing 60.

Look at 92-93 Mario Lemieux:

1.	Mario Lemieux* • PIT	2.67
2.	Pat LaFontaine* • BUF	1.76
3.	Adam Oates* • BOS	1.69
4.	Alexander Mogilny • BUF	1.65
5.	Steve Yzerman* • DET	1.63
6.	Pierre Turgeon • NYI	1.59
7.	Teemu Selanne* • WIN	1.57
8.	Kevin Stevens • PIT	1.54
9.	Doug Gilmour* • TOR	1.53
10.	Luc Robitaille* • LAK	1.49

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It was really not a case, X would have not been injured that he would have giving him a run for his money.

Or in 82-83:

1.	Wayne Gretzky* • EDM	2.45
2.	Peter Stastny* • QUE	1.65
3.	Denis Savard* • CBH	1.55
4.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	1.49
5.	Glenn Anderson* • EDM	1.44

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[daver]

I mean you could make the same argument with Jagr. Or even Gretz and Mario. Gretz and Mario were always close but if one was hurt the other would run away with it. Jagr had Forsberg/Selanne/Sakic on his tail every year in terms of PPG.

Is Kucherov Mario or Wayne in your argument?

 

[Pancakes]

Crosby has quietly crept up to 12th, though it's a 5-way tie for 9th-12th.

He's having his best season since his last Ross. Just dominant. I don't think he has a prayer of catching Kucherov though. 15 points is just too much especially with how dominant Tampa is as a team.

 

[K Fleur]

McDavid has gotten a point on 53.5% of Edmonton’s goals this year.

The league record is 57.3% by Mario Lemieux in 88-89.

 

[North Cole]

McDavid has gotten a point on 53.5% of Edmonton’s goals this year.

The league record is 57.3% by Mario Lemieux in 88-89.

Is that the year he won the Hart while missing the playoffs?

 

[rielledup]

If McDavid wins three in a row with the teams he's played on then he's absolutely separated himself, he already has in my opinion. He won the Art Ross last year on a team with the worst PP in the league, 7 less goals than the second last team. Has anyone else in NHL history won the Art Ross on a team with the worst PP?

 

[MessierII]

Peak Jagr from 98-99, 99-00 did distance himself significantly, he even won the Ross playing less than 65 games.

98-99:

1.	Jaromir Jagr • PIT	1.57
2.	Teemu Selanne* • MDA	1.43
3.	Joe Sakic* • COL	1.32
4.	Eric Lindros* • PHI	1.31
5.	Peter Forsberg* • COL	1.24

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

99-00:

1.	Jaromir Jagr • PIT	1.52
2.	Joe Sakic* • COL	1.35
3.	Pavel Bure* • FLA	1.27
4.	Pierre Turgeon • STL	1.27
5.	Paul Kariya* • MDA	1.16
6.	Mark Recchi* • PHI	1.11
7.	Owen Nolan • SJS	1.08
8.	Teemu Selanne* • MDA	1.08

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That around .15 ppg, 12 points by 82 games scoring rate above everyone else.

Gretzky some season was in a completely different tier than everyone else, even if everyone else played 80-84 games he would have won the ross playing 60.

Look at 92-93 Mario Lemieux:

1.	Mario Lemieux* • PIT	2.67
2.	Pat LaFontaine* • BUF	1.76
3.	Adam Oates* • BOS	1.69
4.	Alexander Mogilny • BUF	1.65
5.	Steve Yzerman* • DET	1.63
6.	Pierre Turgeon • NYI	1.59
7.	Teemu Selanne* • WIN	1.57
8.	Kevin Stevens • PIT	1.54
9.	Doug Gilmour* • TOR	1.53
10.	Luc Robitaille* • LAK	1.49

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It was really not a case, X would have not been injured that he would have giving him a run for his money.

Or in 82-83:

1.	Wayne Gretzky* • EDM	2.45
2.	Peter Stastny* • QUE	1.65
3.	Denis Savard* • CBH	1.55
4.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	1.49
5.	Glenn Anderson* • EDM	1.44

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Is Jagrs .15 really that significant? Mario and Wayne are the two most dominant players ever but the fact is when they were both healthy and in the league at the same time they were right there with each other despite your cherry picked years.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

McDavid has gotten a point on 53.5% of Edmonton’s goals this year.

The league record is 57.3% by Mario Lemieux in 88-89.

McDavid is such an unreal talent. While a debate still existed who was #1 in the league prior to this season, and while I think McDavid solidified himself as #1 last year, this season should put any further debate to rest.

 

[K Fleur]

Is that the year he won the Hart while missing the playoffs?

No 88-89 was actually the first year Lemieux made the playoffs. He lost the Hart to Gretzky despite leading in points by 31.

Though Gretzky probably had a better case(at the least as good) for the Hart the year Lemieux won despite missing the playoffs(87-88). So I think it pretty much evens out.

 

[bobholly39]

How so
Season 1
Player A: 102 pts
Player B: 99 pts

Season 2
Player A: 107 pts
Player B: 104 pts

Season 3
Player A: 109 pts
Player B: 107 pts

did Player A separated himself from player B, would the person ever say that if you insert a player in that league that was scoring 115 pts in average those 3 season winning the Ross over player A ?

It seem pretty obvious that point separation is how you separate yourself, not with the winning or not of a trophy that is not even the goal of the game played.

Player A = very close to Player B in your example.

The thing with McDavid though is - this is what he seems to be projecting towards for now (until he finds an extra gear and starts winning by bigger margins should that one day happen). So McDavid is the player A in this example.

I think the big point you're missing though is about player B.

Is player B the same player or different each year? If it's the same player each year - than sure, they're very close. But if it's a different player each year - than yes separation between McDavid and the field. And the latter seems to be what is happening more than the former.

 

[Bustedprospect]

I mean you could make the same argument with Jagr. Or even Gretz and Mario. Gretz and Mario were always close but if one was hurt the other would run away with it. Jagr had Forsberg/Selanne/Sakic on his tail every year in terms of PPG.

Jagr won by 19% in 1999 and 12% in 1998. These are not small margins over a full season.

In 2000 he misses 19 games and still wins the Ross.

 

[North Cole]

No 88-89 was actually the first year Lemieux made the playoffs. He lost the Hart to Gretzky despite leading in points by 31.

Though Gretzky probably had a better case(at the least as good) for the Hart the year Lemieux won despite missing the playoffs(87-88). So I think it pretty much evens out.

Ah, so it was the year before he won the Hart and missed.

Interesting that they kinda got them backwards. I wonder what the stat line would look like these days for a player to miss and win the Hart. Maybe I shouldnt since we are playing like garbage; might just find out

 

[daver]

Crosby has quietly crept up to 12th, though it's a 5-way tie for 9th-12th.

He's having his best season since his last Ross. Just dominant. I don't think he has a prayer of catching Kucherov though. 15 points is just too much especially with how dominant Tampa is as a team.

He was as good, or better than his Ross year, for most of the 16/17 season.

 

[daver]

Player A = very close to Player B in your example.

The thing with McDavid though is - this is what he seems to be projecting towards for now (until he finds an extra gear and starts winning by bigger margins should that one day happen). So McDavid is the player A in this example.

I think the big point you're missing though is about player B.

Is player B the same player or different each year? If it's the same player each year - than sure, they're very close. But if it's a different player each year - than yes separation between McDavid and the field. And the latter seems to be what is happening more than the former.

He is getting into prime Crosby/Malkin/OV territory.

 

[Pancakes]

He was as good, or better than his Ross year, for most of the 16/17 season.

I know he won the RR that year but he's more dominant this year imo. Better possession numbers and substantially higher PPG.

 

[TheGuiminator]

I know he won the RR that year but he's more dominant this year imo. Better possession numbers and substantially higher PPG.

True, he’s better than the 16/17 season. Don’t get me wrong, he was good in 16/17 but extremely puck lucky. This year, he’s really dominant, don’t be surprise if he ends up in the top 3-5 at the end of the season.
If the Oilers don’t make the playoffs, my money is on him for the Hart (if he keeps that pace of course)

 

[McFlash97]

If McDavid wins three in a row with the teams he's played on then he's absolutely separated himself, he already has in my opinion. He won the Art Ross last year on a team with the worst PP in the league, 7 less goals than the second last team. Has anyone else in NHL history won the Art Ross on a team with the worst PP?

No.

He is also the 2nd youngest player to win 2 Art Ross Trophies (default Gretzky)

This guy is a gift to hockey. Enjoy him while it lasts.

 

[jeffff]

I think winning the Art Ross is more impressive than a Stanley Cup and much more difficult. Every year there is only 1 Art Ross winner and there are 25 names give or take on the Stanley cup.

You know how many players have won the Art Ross in the last 50 years....28!! There are over a 1000 players that can say they have won the cup in the last 50 years.

If you asked a rookie what would he would rather win, I'm guessing all would take the Stanley Cup but I think the Art Ross is more indicative of the caliber of player.

 

[PensandCaps]

He was as good, or better than his Ross year, for most of the 16/17 season.

No...no he wasn't.

Crosby won the Ross by like 20 in 13-14.

He was 2nd in PPG behind McDavid in 16-17.