We *do* know about Franzen's long, sad history of mental illness and concussions, right? And your response, "He must have thin skin." You don't know the full story either but chose to overlook what we do know about Franzen to talk out of your ass. f*** off with the "relax friends!" garbage.
Around the NHL: Part XVIII
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The Crypto Guy
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Dude, I'm usually not one of those people but for all you know nyr2k2 has struggled with mental illness or has loved ones that did.
The Crypto Guy
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True. I apologize @nyr2k2
JimmyG89
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It's not surprising. Didn't the story come out after he got fired that every year leadership went to Holland saying they wanted Babcock fired?
You wonder, Babcock was such a dick to the players, while Mike Ilich sounded like one of the nicest owners in pro sports. You wonder if the players just tuned out that stuff and realized that the owner of the team gave a shit about them and just dealt with it.
You wonder, Babcock was such a dick to the players, while Mike Ilich sounded like one of the nicest owners in pro sports. You wonder if the players just tuned out that stuff and realized that the owner of the team gave a shit about them and just dealt with it.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Total speculation on my part, but they probably thought they were getting another Bowman --- who could play quite the psychological games himself.
But one of the things that's not talked about here, and it's prevalent in every industry in which I've ever worked, is that management tends to be more tolerant of shady bullshit when they're getting results and "winning" at their respective challenge.
Coaching, sales/marketing, journalism, the stock market, politics, etc. You name it, and you'll find people who are willing to give a long leash so long as the checks clear, the money rolls in, and the end result is deemed a success.
Unfortunately, a lot of that is true for most of us at some point in our lives. And if it hasn't been, it probably will be at some point. I know that's not a pleasant answer to read, but it's probably more true than we'd care to admit.
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These are completely different eras. That doesn't mean what he did was right but things should be put into context. Babcock's style doesn't mesh with modern day.
He was/is an asshole. People didn't like him. That's his style. It's an age-old way of doing things. Whether it be in competition/battle. Military still uses it but there's checks and balances.
He was/is an asshole. People didn't like him. That's his style. It's an age-old way of doing things. Whether it be in competition/battle. Military still uses it but there's checks and balances.
I think that the specific kind of "leadership" you see in those really intense guys is probably on the way out. That's not to say that the days of bully head coaches are over, but I think the tolerance for that kind of behavior is shrinking and shrinking. And really, a big part of leadership is knowing how to best motivate and orient your guys. I think coaches are becoming more aware that the players themselves expect to be treated differently, and then in turn the good ones change their leadership style accordingly--to be more supportive and positive, less in-your-face, overly-negative, threatening, etc.
I remember growing up, coaches just kind of kicked your ass. That was the expectation. Bobby Knight was a cool dude and people wanted to emulate that nasty, asshole style. Now I coach youth sports and while you still run across some jerks, most coaches are acutely aware that parents are watching, and that what parents can't see the kids will still report back.
Of course, the more competitive the leagues get, the more tolerance there is for those dickheads, because parents start to believe that their kids are really going to make it (like, pro level, not just make varsity as a Freshman, LOL). And if Mike Yells-His-Dick-Off is the best coach out there, then they want him on that team. This, however, is where the college and pro athletes come in--if they start to refuse to play for these tyrannical douchebags, then it does trickle down to the more competitive youth environments.
So, color me refreshed that all these guys have begun to speak out. Hopefully we can eliminate that kind of behavior at all levels in the next decade or so.
I remember growing up, coaches just kind of kicked your ass. That was the expectation. Bobby Knight was a cool dude and people wanted to emulate that nasty, asshole style. Now I coach youth sports and while you still run across some jerks, most coaches are acutely aware that parents are watching, and that what parents can't see the kids will still report back.
Of course, the more competitive the leagues get, the more tolerance there is for those dickheads, because parents start to believe that their kids are really going to make it (like, pro level, not just make varsity as a Freshman, LOL). And if Mike Yells-His-Dick-Off is the best coach out there, then they want him on that team. This, however, is where the college and pro athletes come in--if they start to refuse to play for these tyrannical douchebags, then it does trickle down to the more competitive youth environments.
So, color me refreshed that all these guys have begun to speak out. Hopefully we can eliminate that kind of behavior at all levels in the next decade or so.
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
I'd be interested to know what Babcock actually said to Franzen, whether its something that really crosses the line or just typical tough-guy mean coach stuff. I mean most, if not all, sports coaches are assholes. I feel like you need to be in order to be a coach, at any level. If we start witch hunting any coach who was "mean" to their players to try and motivate them I think thats a mistake. Obviously stuff like Peters is never acceptable (especially demoting the player after making a complaint) but the Sean Avery thing, and even the Marner list controversy, its kind of a dickhead thing to do but man Babcock is really getting the twitter lynch mob treatment, I mean did anyone ever have any doubt he wasn't a jerk? Just look at him.
eco's bones
Registered User
Most people have at one time or another had a really bad boss and some of them have a knack for not only sticking around but getting more power. When you think about it why would the NHL or any major sport be any different? Bullies permeate throughout society. Personally I'm glad the Rangers won in '94 but Keenan was another guy who could be pretty bizarre and he certainly was power hungry. Seems to me Ken Holland made friends with his guy something that Neil Smith didn't do. In any case when the Rangers coaching job comes up again (and these things are inevitable) one guy I won't want the Rangers to look at is Babcock.
JimmyG89
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”Den värsta personen jag någonsin träffat”
This is a horrifying account from Frazen himself about what Babcock did to him as a person.
If it wasn't already a done deal, I cannot see Babcock getting a job anywhere again.
This is a horrifying account from Frazen himself about what Babcock did to him as a person.
If it wasn't already a done deal, I cannot see Babcock getting a job anywhere again.
eco's bones
Registered User
Chelios isn't really that detailish as far as what was said to Franzen. He just mentions that Franzen broke down on the bench and in the locker room......so it's hard to say whether Babcock crossed the line or even by how much. To me though he crosses the line with Marner---that's f***ed up. I could see firing his ass just for that.
I will say also that making an impression on Chelios like that shouldn't be taken lightly. Chelios was one hard ass dude on and off the ice.
eco's bones
Registered User
I think I mentioned concussions and depression going hand in hand. Sometimes when guys are out for a long time it's because of some really nasty side affects. Can't stand light--can't stand noise. Literally living in a dark and quiet place. Anger issues is another one. Constant nausea. Concussions can drastically change a person's personality. No one who is suffering through any kind of brain injury should be competitively playing hockey. If Babcock knew Franzen was concussed and tormented him anyway he's a real shitbird.
kovazub94
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- Aug 5, 2010
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This. Not surprising that these accounts came up when Babdick couldn't make a winner in Toronto. The reporting line in hockey is paramount. Many times we heard about comparison to military. So my take is that Holland was afraid of
1. A perception that "inmates are running the asylum" and looking like a weak GM, and
2. Especially if the new coach couldn't get results. Then it would be Holland's ass on the line for sabotaging winning results for the owner.
Amazing Kreiderman
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- Apr 11, 2011
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There's no hiding your bad take when several people have already quoted it
Maximus
Registered User
Phewww....that was some heavy heavy shit...wow. Seeing Franzen like that was tough to see and listen too.
Tho the topic sucks bigtime, I for one am glad it's out in the open and my hope is that the Babcock's and Peter's of the world are vilified the rest of their lives and never get a gig again in the world of hockey.
In a way these revelations are kind of like hockey's version of the "me-too" movement where the Harvey Weinstein's, Kevin Spacey's, Matt Lauer's of the world got outed after years of abuse and finally they got their comeuppance.
I wanted to just post a reply agreeing with you but ended up writing a novel of roster building so I'm moving it to that section rather than leave it here where it doesn't fit.
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I knew Babcock not winning in Toronto would tarnish his legacy as a coach, but man these revelations are going to sink his career in the NHL. Absolutely insane stuff.
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
I Eat Crow
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I will never, ever feel sorry for Ken Daneyko or any former Devil getting paid a six figure salary to commentate or provide scorching hot takes on the sport they retired from.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Babcock's legacy will no longer be about the Cup he won in Detroit, but about the team he ruined
eco's bones
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He didn't ruin the Leafs. They just collectively had had enough and stopped playing for him. Now they're playing well again. There's a 'f*** you' message to Babcock in that. I do think that any team that would want to hire him should think twice about it and find someone else. Same with Peters.
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