Around The NHL #6 - All About The Teams Not Ours.

[Fuhrious]

I have not personally served, no. But my family has been military for three generations now, and I have had family members in two different levels of Army Special Forces, Navy, and Air Force in wars ranging from WWII to the current actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. So if you feel like I'm insulting you, it wasn't my intent. But I am also not interested in a hagiography of military service and culture.

Not surprised that's where you went with this (hagiography), given you're readily making know-it-all assumptions about everything else. And for the record, you're the one who decided to pivot the conversation towards "military service and culture", not me. Otherwise please refer to my above reply to @rt.

 

[Fuhrious]

One of my best friends from high school was an intelligence officer in the Army. Military Intelligence. He also moved from Minnesota to Florida at age 12, so had a predictably self-deprecating sense of humor about it. And could see through jingoist BS.

Ah, I see the problem...I used the term "served" instead of "worked for <company X>", therefore it's presumed I'm spouting "jingoist BS" rather than simply making a general point about stereotyping groups of people (in this case, Muslims vs Law Enforcement). Shame on me for a poor turn of phrase; shame on any of you that assumed you knew my motivations.

 

[Fuhrious]

RE: the Playoffs...

After all the cross-checks to Hall and Garland's respective faces and the subsequent handful of Avs posters decided to bigchest our last couple GDTs, I have to admit to enjoying this 5.25 GAA they're giving up to the Stars in the current series. Couldnt happen to a nicer bunch of blokes tbh.

 

[XX]

Not surprised that's where you went with this (hagiography), given you're readily making know-it-all assumptions about everything else. And for the record, you're the one who decided to pivot the conversation towards "military service and culture", not me. Otherwise please refer to my above reply to @rt.

It started with your... questionable comparison of the military and police.

If someone in my line of work (the military)

We aren't in the military. Society doesn't operate in accordance with the UCMJ. The police aren't the military either, obviously.

were to utter the phrase "all Muslims are terrorists" due to their experiences with a distinct minority of individuals associated with that group, they'd be quickly and correctly set straight.

Muslims are an ethnic group and one that has historically dealt with severe racism in the United States. The police are not an ethnic group. They are not an oppressed minority.

You should be equally embarrassed to likewise reduce the good people associated with this group (law enforcement) due to the reprehensible actions of some of their number.

I'll stop criticizing the system as a whole when cops stop closing ranks and protecting those that are clearly in the wrong. The whole system, from the top the bottom, is stacked in their favor. There's no accountability and they act the part. Increasingly, there's no reason to be a cop for the low pay and the lack of training in combination with the danger (unless you like beating up people or are looking to kill. )

A simple example: Did Robert Bales represent the Army? To the people he killed and those in that community, he probably did and still does. He was at least punished. That's a lot more than what happens to your average cop for shootings that are clearly unjustified and/or the result of poor training, including making no attempt to deescalate. It doesn't take a COIN genius to understand how that's going to go in the long run. In the age of smartphones, we're going to keep seeing these videos. Something has to give.

Other western countries don't have this problem because they have better standards and thoroughly train people, then hold them accountable for every use of force. It's not a lot to ask, yet people act like reform is unfathomable if they even want to talk about it at all. Too many people value order over justice I suppose.

 

[Fuhrious]

It started with your... questionable comparison of the military and police.

Except I didnt "compare" the military and police. You (and potentially others) inferred it. I mentioned the military because it's very specifically what I know and I felt it relevant to talk from a place of experience and understanding. I could just as easily have said "If I'm sitting in a Starbucks and an acquaintance says..." and effectively have attempted to make the same damn point. Anything you took from it above and beyond that, you brought in yourselves.

 

[rt]

Nobody said it was; what was pre-supposed was the level of respect to not tell someone the culture or climate of the workplace or social group they've been intimately associated with for almost 19 years. Just like I dont deign to tell you "how stuff works" at any of your jobs. Feel free to insert <come to your job and knock the mop out of your hand> meme here.

He didn’t. You posted after him. You’re being overly hypersensitive about this. Seems like you’re having a bigger, older argument.

 

[Fuhrious]

He didn’t. You posted after him. You’re being overly hypersensitive about this. Seems like you’re having a bigger, older argument.

You're right; I very much dislike when people say "<insert group> is <insert terrible adjective> because <insert handful of members of that group did reprehensible thing>". If that's something you're comfortable selectively throwing around, like the two folks I replied to did, then yeah...it's a bigger, older problem.

 

[rt]

You're right; I very much dislike when people say "<insert group> is <insert terrible adjective> because <insert handful of members of that group did reprehensible thing>". If that's something you're comfortable selectively throwing around, like the two folks I replied to did, then yeah...it's a bigger, older problem.

I’m lost. I didn’t see them do that.

 

[Fuhrious]

I’m lost. I didn’t see them do that.

Around The NHL #6 - All About The Teams Not Ours.

 

[rt]

Around The NHL #6 - All About The Teams Not Ours.

He said the military is a lot like other large organizations in that there are some bad apples here and there and it takes solid leadership to contend with. Then you responded like you were personally under attack. Then 10 minutes ago you said people shouldn’t look only at the bad apples to judge the whole bunch. Which was his original point?

That’s why I’m confused. It seems like the comments by Feckless were pretty innocuous and self evident and in line with your ultimate point as well?

I’m not criticizing you or attacking you either. I’m trying to understand your position.

 

[Fuhrious]

He said the military is a lot like other large organizations in that there are some bad apples here and there and it takes solid leadership to contend with. Then you responded like you were personally under attack. Then 10 minutes ago you said people shouldn’t look only at the bad apples to judge the whole bunch. Which was his original point?

That’s why I’m confused. It seems like the comments by Feckless were pretty innocuous and self evident and in line with your ultimate point as well?

I’m not criticizing you or attacking you either. I’m trying to understand your position.

Because my larger point had nothing to do with the military or "leadership" or what causes people in whatever group (in this case law enforcement) to do whatever horrible things they do at all; it was about the two people I replied to spouting hyperbolic nonsense. So are we saying that two random jabronis on HFBoards "need better leadership"? What does that even mean?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The other brother in law spent 8 years a Marine (including 2 as a DI at MCRD San Diego.) I learned first hand how that life affects someone.

My best friend in high school went into the Marines and was a sniper spotter in the first Gulf War, while I was off spending a few years in a Mexican jungle. His struggles with PTSD took him down an extremely bad road that he's only recently got off of - but the good news is that he's going back to school to become a counselor for other vets.

Not surprised that's where you went with this (hagiography), given you're readily making know-it-all assumptions about everything else. And for the record, you're the one who decided to pivot the conversation towards "military service and culture", not me. Otherwise please refer to my above reply to @rt.

What I said was that your statement that a military person making a racist statement would "quickly and correctly be set straight" is not universally true. I said nothing about how you do your job, and I did not make assumptions or conclusions about military service in general. Like I said, I have a healthy respect for the military and people who decide on that as a career due to my family circumstances. But I know for a fact that, like in every other profession in America (and, in fact, the world), the armed forces are not exempt from uncorrected pejorative behavior. If you are fortunate enough in your two decades of service to be in an environment where issues like racism and white supremacy have been quickly and effectively stamped out, then I'm happy for you - and I'm glad that you're in a place where the system works as it is intended to work.

 

[rt]

Because my larger point had nothing to do with the military or "leadership" or what causes people in whatever group (in this case law enforcement) to do whatever horrible things they do at all; it was about the two people I replied to spouting hyperbolic nonsense. So are we saying that two random jabronis on HFBoards "need better leadership"? What does that even mean?

I see. Further up where someone said that the police, in general, are racist. Yeah, I agree. That’s ridiculous and not helpful. That kind of rhetoric is also currently very dangerous and is ruining far too many lives at present. And rather pointlessly, at that.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Both of these statements are hyperbolic to the point of absurdity. If someone in my line of work (the military) were to utter the phrase "all Muslims are terrorists" due to their experiences with a distinct minority of individuals associated with that group, they'd be quickly and correctly set straight. You should be equally embarrassed to likewise reduce the good people associated with this group (law enforcement) due to the reprehensible actions of some of their number.

washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinion/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/

“There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal justice system is racist. Here’s the proof.”

That’s the easiest read for those not versed in statistics. For those who are, and think my previous post was “hyperbolic”, I say “Update your priors”. Those who I’m speaking to understand what that means.

 

[Fuhrious]

washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinion/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/

“There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal justice system is racist. Here’s the proof.”

That’s the easiest read for those not versed in statistics. For those who are, and think my previous post was “hyperbolic”, I say “Update your priors”. Those who I’m speaking to understand what that means.

Your link doesnt work.

Based on the URL, it appears to be speaking very broadly about the "criminal justice system". Your comment was very specific, "Police forces across America have been shown to be racist."

Words have meaning.

Yours indicates that no matter what police department I go into in any city, township or village in the US, I should expect to find it manned by racists. That's gross exaggeration. Full stop.

Assuming you're talking about me, as I'm the one throwing around the word "hyperbole" here...I have no idea how the colloquialism "update your priors" is relevant to the point I'm making.

 

[Mosby]

Mike Gillis is getting a second interview in Florida.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Mike Gillis is getting a second interview in Florida.

Florida's gonna have their new GM before we get our first interview in.

 

[Summer Rose]

I hope Antti Raanta has spent the last five hours staring at himself in the mirror and screaming what the f***.

He managed to tear a neck muscle in doing so and is sidelined with a UBI for six months.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

According to the article, which you could have Googled, there is widespread racism in police departments across the country.

Please parse my words more accurately. “Widespread” is not equivalent to “All”. As you say, words have meaning.

Update your priors- “priors” are your prior knowledge and beliefs, before seeing evidence. This is taken from a NYT article titled “How to think like an Epidemiologist “ which you can Google.
Consider the term “Update your priors” to mean “avoid confirmation bias” for the purposes of our discussion.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

He managed to tear a neck muscle in doing so and is sidelined with a UBI for six months.

...which happened after he dislocated his jaw opening his mouth to yell and then suffered a ruptured retina from a glare in the mirror.

 

[Fuhrious]

According to the article, which you could have Googled, there is widespread racism in police departments across the country.

Please parse my words more accurately. “Widespread” is not equivalent to “All”. As you say, words have meaning.

The onus isnt on me to scour the internet for your supporting data.

Your words were parsed exactly as they were presented. For at least the third time: "Police forces across America have been shown to be racist." Nowhere do you use the word "widespread", ; "Police forces across America" absolutely implies "all". If you're going to hide behind the skirts of a word, perhaps you should actually use it next time?

 

[Bonsai Tree]

The onus isnt on me to scour the internet for your supporting data.

Your words were parsed exactly as they were presented. For at least the third time: ""Police forces across America have been shown to be racist." Nowhere do you use the word "widespread", ; "Police forces across America" absolutely implies "all". If you're going to hide behind the skirts of a word, perhaps you should actually use it next time?

Silly me. I thought you would be interested in why I said what I said.

 

[Fuhrious]

Silly me. I thought you would be interested in why I said what I said.

Perhaps you should consider leading with logic/data rather than hyperbole next time?

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Perhaps you should consider leading with logic/data rather than hyperbole next time?

All snark aside, take another look at the data. Also listen to Adam Foss, a former prosecutor, in his TED talks on YouTube.

 

[Fuhrious]

All snark aside, take another look at the data. Also listen to Adam Foss, a former prosecutor, in his TED talks on YouTube.

I'm just a random guy on the internet, so I'm sure you wont and probably shouldnt care... but if you're legitimately attempting to defend a statement even remotely comparable to my previous analogy, "no matter what police department I go into in any city, township or village in the US, I should expect to find it manned by racists", we're not going to find any real common ground here. Nothing makes me tune a person out faster in discussions such as these than statements like "<insert group> is <insert derogatory descriptor> because <insert reprehensible act some small segment of the group thinks or did>".