Around the NHL - 2023 offseason edition

[JrFischer54]

Yikes

some cities just aren't as attractive to players and hence why some of them have to OVERPAY to land players.

 

[AfroThunder396]

I have Mogilny in my Hall of Very Good for a couple of reasons.

1.) He was very rarely the best player on his own team.
2.) Little hardware - 1 Cup (which is a team award), and he shares an honorary Richard with Selanne in 93 (Rocket didn't exist until '99), two 2nd Team All-Stars.
3.) Never dominated the league relative to his peers - finished top-10 in points TWICE in 16 seasons - 7th place in '93, 9th place in '97.
4.) Generally very weak playoff performances - he only made it out of the 1st round 4 times in his career (2 with NJ), and in those 4 runs he had 19 goals/40 points in 81 games.

Alexander Mogilny's points finish on his own team:

89-90: 7th
90-91: 4th
91-92: 4th
92-93: 2nd
93-94: 2nd
94-95: 1st
*Traded to VAN*
95-96: 1st
96-97: 1st
97-98: 3rd
98-99: 3rd
99-00: 5th* (traded to NJ mid-season)
00-01: 2nd
*Signs in TOR*
01-02: 3rd
02-03: 1st
03-04: 10th (37 GP)
05-06: 10th (24 GP)

The only time in Buffalo he finished 1st on his team was in the '95 lockout season when Pat LaFontaine and Dale Hawerchuk both missed half the year. Even in his infamous 76 goal season, he still finished 21 points (!) behind Pat Lafontaine.

The two season he finished 1st on the Canucks were the two seasons that Pavel Bure was dealing with a significant injuries. Bure tore his ACL in 1996, only playing 16 games, and then dealt with a neck injury in 1997 that had him in and out of the lineup. In both '98 and '99 Mogilny was outscored by Vancouver Messier (cringe).

Then he came to NJ, and I think all of us who were old enough to remember those teams will tell you that Elias was clearly the better forward (Mogilny had a pathetic 4 goals and 3 assists in 23 playoff games en route to his only Cup in 2000, only one point more than Colin White had). We also all remember the famous incident in Game 6 against Colorado in 2001, where Mogilny hit the post on one end and slowly sulked back to the bench which resulted in an odd-man rush against and a very important Colorado goal.

In Toronto he finished 1st in points on the team once, but again, those Leafs teams were not particularly great despite the ECF run in 2002. And anyone with a brain will tell you that Sundin was pretty universally the better and more important player.

In the three seasons he played in Toronto, Mogilny had 65 goals in 176 games. That is IDENTICAL to Jesper Bratt's statline over the past three seasons. Exact same goals, exact same games played (though Bratt has 10 more assists than Mogilny does in the same time span - Bratt for HHoF )

-----

IMO the only time Mogilny was clearly the best player on his own team was in 1996 in Vancouver, he outscored Trevor Linden by 27 points. But that was a pretty bad team who won 32 games total, but ended up making the playoffs by virtue of 15 ties and getting killed in the first round (they also fired their coach mid-season that year).

He peaked in his 4th season, then he spent most of the next 13 years as a big fish in a small pond. The only time he got to play for a big boy team was in NJ, and he was relegated to playing with a rookie on the 2nd line.

I think part of the reason is that if you look at those fan bases - early 90's Sabres, late 90's Nucks, early 00's Leafs - people who were fans of those teams at the time didn't have a whole lot of great going on for them aside from the cool Russian sniper who feasted on the PP. Ironically us Devils fans who actually got to see Mogilny win a Cup are championing a different and clearly superior player as the most egregious snub.

IMO he's far closer to guys like Petr Bondra, Rick Nash, and Kevin Stevens than he is to Pavel Bure, Teemu Selanne, and Brendan Shanahan. And IMO he's pretty clearly below some "borderline" guys like Elias and Brind'Amour (who was a much more important piece on every team he played for, regardless of raw production).

I get why people are so fired up about him, goals are very cool. Especially when Turgeon, who is just Mogilny with fewer goals and more assists, got in before him. But just because he's better than several players already in the Hall does not justify further bad inductees.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

you're forgetting that its the HOCKEY Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame.

Mogilny is one of the most influential players in regards to the Russian crossover

 

[My3Sons]

I have Mogilny in my Hall of Very Good for a couple of reasons.

1.) He was very rarely the best player on his own team.
2.) Little hardware - 1 Cup (which is a team award), and he shares an honorary Richard with Selanne in 93 (Rocket didn't exist until '99), two 2nd Team All-Stars.
3.) Never dominated the league relative to his peers - finished top-10 in points TWICE in 16 seasons - 7th place in '93, 9th place in '97.
4.) Generally very weak playoff performances - he only made it out of the 1st round 4 times in his career (2 with NJ), and in those 4 runs he had 19 goals/40 points in 81 games.

Alexander Mogilny's points finish on his own team:

89-90: 7th
90-91: 4th
91-92: 4th
92-93: 2nd
93-94: 2nd
94-95: 1st
*Traded to VAN*
95-96: 1st
96-97: 1st
97-98: 3rd
98-99: 3rd
99-00: 5th* (traded to NJ mid-season)
00-01: 2nd
*Signs in TOR*
01-02: 3rd
02-03: 1st
03-04: 10th (37 GP)
05-06: 10th (24 GP)

The only time in Buffalo he finished 1st on his team was in the '95 lockout season when Pat LaFontaine and Dale Hawerchuk both missed half the year. Even in his infamous 76 goal season, he still finished 21 points (!) behind Pat Lafontaine.

The two season he finished 1st on the Canucks were the two seasons that Pavel Bure was dealing with a significant injuries. Bure tore his ACL in 1996, only playing 6 games, and then dealt with a neck injury in 1997 that had him in and out of the lineup. In both '98 and '99 Mogilny was outscored by Vancouver Messier (cringe).

Then he came to NJ, and I think all of us who were old enough to remember those teams will tell you that Elias was clearly the better forward (Mogilny had a pathetic 4 goals and 3 assists in 23 playoff games en route to his only Cup in 2000, only one point more than Colin White had). We also all remember the famous incident in Game 6 against Colorado in 2001, where Mogilny hit the post on one end and slowly sulked back to the bench which resulted in an odd-man rush against and a very important Colorado goal.

In Toronto he finished 1st in points on the team once, but again, those Leafs teams were not particularly great despite the ECF run in 2002. And anyone with a brain will tell you that Sundin was pretty universally the better and more important player.

In the three seasons he played in Toronto, Mogilny had 65 goals in 176 games. That is IDENTICAL to Jesper Bratt's statline over the past three seasons. Exact same goals, exact same games played (though Bratt has 10 more assists than Mogilny does in the same time span - Bratt for HHoF )

-----

IMO the only time Mogilny was clearly the best player on his own team was in 1996 in Vancouver, he outscored Trevor Linden by 27 points. But that was a pretty bad team who won 32 games total, but ended up making the playoffs by virtue of 15 ties and getting killed in the first round (they also fired their coach mid-season that year).

He peaked in his 4th season, then he spent most of the next 13 years as a big fish in a small pond. The only time he got to play for a big boy team was in NJ, and he was relegated to playing with a rookie on the 2nd line.

I think part of the reason is that if you look at those fan bases - early 90's Sabres, late 90's Nucks, early 00's Leafs - people who were fans of those teams at the time didn't have a whole lot of great going on for them aside from the cool Russian sniper who feasted on the PP. Ironically us Devils fans who actually got to see Mogilny win a Cup are championing a different and clearly superior player as the most egregious snub.

IMO he's far closer to guys like Petr Bondra, Rick Nash, and Kevin Stevens than he is to Pavel Bure, Teemu Selanne, and Brendan Shanahan. And IMO he's pretty clearly below some "borderline" guys like Elias and Brind'Amour (who was a much more important piece on every team he played for, regardless of raw production).

I get why people are so fired up about him, goals are very cool. Especially when Turgeon, who is just Mogilny with fewer goals and more assists, got in before him. But just because he's better than several players already in the Hall does not justify further bad inductees.

If Mogilny gets to 500 goals he'd probably be in sooner than later and he lost time to two work stoppages during his tenure. My guess is he would have made that last 27-28 goals he needed with those extra games. I understand your points and they aren't wrong. This is an opinion issue in many respects.

 

[Devs3cups]

 

[Nubmer6]

Stop what? I'm old, some days everything is creaky and stiff. It's what happens to all of us.

SOME days?

I creak ALL the time

 

[Darkauron]

Is Calgary a tough place to live or something? Is the organization suddenly dysfunctional? They had a good team and now their better players don't want to stay by and large? Is this just an exodus from Canada? It's not good when too many rats flee the sinking ship.

Living In Calgary and Edmonton, and the whole area really sucks. The cities are not that great and it is dark and extremely cold most of the year.

 

[My3Sons]

SOME days?

I creak ALL the time

I can feel 35 50 and 75 all in the same bike ride on any given day. My body is like the Severson of humanity.

 

[Nubmer6]

I can feel 35 50 and 75 all in the same bike ride on any given day. My body is like the Severson of humanity.

Hmmm...

35 and 50 and 75 = 165?

 

[My3Sons]

Living In Calgary and Edmonton, and the whole area really sucks. The cities are not that great and it is dark and extremely cold most of the year.

The weather in the winter isn't much better in NYC, NJ, Boston, or any number of northern US cities or Toronto but they don't have players actively trying to leave. This is really a shame and not good for the league if players don't want to stay in Canada for third contracts if they have any alternatives.

 

[JrFischer54]

not really if the players dont want to sign ship them off the earlier the better.

 

[My3Sons]

not really if the players dont want to sign ship them off the earlier the better.

Calgary and Winnipeg seem to be in the same bad spot. At some point it won't shock me if Edmonton gets stuck there too if McDavid and Draisatl decide to move on. Calgary and Winnipeg apparently don't want to rebuild which is usually the problem. Vancouver has been stuck in mediocrity for years because of their self defeating attempts at staying "competitive".

 

[Bleedred]

Is Calgary a tough place to live or something? Is the organization suddenly dysfunctional? They had a good team and now their better players don't want to stay by and large? Is this just an exodus from Canada? It's not good when too many rats flee the sinking ship.

It's a pretty cold place and it's pretty high in altitude, though still roughly 2000 feet less than Denver.

They also have the oldest building in the league, other than MSG, which was completely renovated about 10 years ago.

I'd have to imagine there's similar feelings about playing/living in Edmonton, though they have McDavid now and more people wanna play there now than when they were a joke about 5-6 years ago.

It doesn't appear that too many guys want out anymore, now that Sutter was sacked. Hanifin is the first guy I've heard of who wants out since the Sutter firing.

EDIT - And I guess Backlund too. It seemed like a place where people didn't mind going to before Sutter.

 

[My3Sons]

It's a pretty cold place and it's pretty high in altitude, though still roughly 2000 feet less than Denver.

They also have the oldest building in the league, other than MSG, which was completely renovated about 10 years ago.

I'd have to imagine there's similar feelings about playing/living in Edmonton, though they have McDavid now and more people wanna play there now than when they were a joke about 5-6 years ago.

It doesn't appear that too many guys want out anymore, now that Sutter was sacked. Hanifin is the first guy I've heard of who wants out since the Sutter firing.

EDIT - And I guess Backlund too. It seemed like a place where people didn't mind going to before Sutter.

Hopefully it’s just a Sutter thing and players can be happy there. No market should be a pariah.

 

[Patrik26]

Stop what? I'm old, some days everything is creaky and stiff. It's what happens to all of us.

Stiff is good. Stiff is good. That's what .....

 

[Rhodes 81]

Calgary and Winnipeg seem to be in the same bad spot. At some point it won't shock me if Edmonton gets stuck there too if McDavid and Draisatl decide to move on. Calgary and Winnipeg apparently don't want to rebuild which is usually the problem. Vancouver has been stuck in mediocrity for years because of their self defeating attempts at staying "competitive".

It's funny to me that these Canadian teams, which in theory have loyal fan bases, are the ones that don't seem willing to just rebuild like everyone else.

I don't think you need to go full NBA where you tear it down within 2 years if you don't win something, but if everybody wants out you kind of have to see the writing on the wall at some point?

 

[Emperoreddy]

Calgary has somehow become worse then Winnipeg with this mass exodus

 

[Emperoreddy]

 

[Darkauron]

The league is a joke

 

[Forge]

No more pride night jerseys or locked threads

 

[Triumph]

Lot of words about Mogilny

The biggest issue with Mogilny was his health - while he never suffered a major injury that kept him out most of a year, he never played 80 games in a season. He finished over 70 games only 5 times in a 16 year career. That's part of why his counting numbers each year don't impress. So sure, he finished 21 points behind Lafontaine, but he missed 7 games that year, and given the kind of totals both guys were putting up, that explains at least half the gap right there. Throw in faceoff wins leading to assists and they're probably even.

I'm neutral on Mogilny in the Hall myself and I do think people are overlooking the fact that he probably wouldn't show up to the ceremony as the reason he's not in. I don't think there would be such a call for him to be in if he only scored, say, 65 goals in 92-93.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Stop what? I'm old, some days everything is creaky and stiff. It's what happens to all of us.

Dude. I'm pretty sure you're my age and I'm not old, damnit. Now get off my lawn

 

[Oneiro]

Not a surprise. Coward (boomer)-led league cops out in the easiest way possible again.

Funerals - good for science and hockey.

 

[Guttersniped]

Is Calgary a tough place to live or something? Is the organization suddenly dysfunctional? They had a good team and now their better players don't want to stay by and large? Is this just an exodus from Canada? It's not good when too many rats flee the sinking ship.

Their arena sucks and they can’t get a new one built (unless that’s changed recently). And the organization has no direction other try to get playoff profits every year.

They should have locked up Gaudreau and Tkachuk when they had the chance.

The push to always be competitive every year caused them to kick the can ahead on those deals and then both guys were free to plan their ideal escapes. (Gaudreau’s ideal escape was Philly but the Flyers surprised him by not sharing that same idea.)

These other players are complimentary guys, they can’t carry Calgary by themselves. They likely see the team getting worse and then fighting it with more desperate UFA signings.

You can’t make a competitive team just with more pricy additions like Kadri and keeping all their UFAs at top dollar prices too.

They need GMs with better approaches but that starts with their team ownership.

One fun explanation I’ve heard of why Canadian teams struggle is they have ownership who are hockey fans with their own dumb ideas mucking up the process.

 

[MasterofGrond]

canadian markets are also not very patient, except edmonton, and edmonton has different systemic issues