Around the NHL 2023-24 - offseason part II

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Goptor

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Jun 30, 2016
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What happened to the "Spirit of the CBA"? Doesn't that allow the league to do whatever the hell it wants ultimately?

The contract is legal but it goes against the spirit of the salary cap so is subject to punishment of 1st rd pick, 3rd, round pick, $3 mil, and the contract ultimately gets voided.

Every single RFA left is going to get deferred contract and Edmonton will probably 'Bonilla' the Draisatl contract next year so they really need to act fast.
 

Camille the Eel

Registered User
I’m a day late but i can’t get over the Gaudreau thing. So horrible, so preventable, so senseless… as someone who spends a lot of time on the road, it’s been crazy to watch our slow descent into madness on the highways. It’s never been great, and like 95% of drivers or more are just trying to get somewhere safely, but it only takes one person who has no interest in anything but themselves to change the world for the worse forever. This isn’t a complaint and hockey is way down the list of most important things in life but it’s hard not to feel like this is gonna be a cloud over the entire season, and probably beyond.
Yes I also learned it late last night and felt shock, loss and personal grief. Maybe a trigger to memories of deaths of young friends that I saw when younger. But anyway, this was hockey and suddenly death came to the game and hockey became relatively meaningless. These two young men, one of whom we watched and knew cut off in a second in the prime of life. The discussions here about the perpetrator and drunk and reckless driving serve to distract a bit from the emotional reality. To rationalize it as preventable, reasonable as being bad action so to speak. But the raw reality is sudden and violent death and it is sad and frightening beyond expression . (The parents losing both sons too).
 
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MasterofGrond

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Feb 13, 2009
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Once they get large enough you can challenge it under the “good of the league” in the same way the Kovy contract was challenged.

If the deferred payments get silly the league will have to step in, in the same way they did before when nothing violated any specific rule in the CBA.

Better to discuss it earlier, add an addendum to the CBA, and avoid a voided contract in the future.


That’s what people said when they incorrectly thought Kovy’s contract couldn’t be voided.

The league has broad authority to void things designed to manipulate cap hits. Even if they aren’t violating any specific rule.
A deferred payment is literally written in tot he language of the CBA. This isn't a "this isn't illegal" thing, this is a "it is literally defined as legal."

And why would they have to step in? This is not financial engineering, trust me. The team doesn't receive a real benefit here, except in situations where the SOFR (now that LIBOR is gone) +1.25 number is out of step with actually returns. The cap advantage is not a real thing which is happening.
 
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forceten

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I am still stunned and heartbroken about the horrific news. So is my son.

Some excellent posts here - thanks guys and gals. Only thing I’ll add to the Culture aspect is we need more public transport. Not Uber or taxi but rail and bus, and running all night. I know there are things to solve and issues on the negative side but I’ve been in bars in my youth in Boston that I got to by train only to close it and find the T had stopped. We walked but I know others near us hopped into a car. We can do better.

The issues that divide us are manufactured by greed. We are more alike despite outward appearances and superficial preferences. And my god we should care for each other.
 

Bleedred

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I am still stunned and heartbroken about the horrific news. So is my son.

Some excellent posts here - thanks guys and gals. Only thing I’ll add to the Culture aspect is we need more public transport. Not Uber or taxi but rail and bus, and running all night. I know there are things to solve and issues on the negative side but I’ve been in bars in my youth in Boston that I got to by train only to close it and find the T had stopped. We walked but I know others near us hopped into a car. We can do better.

The issues that divide us are manufactured by greed. We are more alike despite outward appearances and superficial preferences. And my god we should care for each other.
Yeah, I'm not taking it so well either. And I usually don't take these types of things too badly, since I didn't know them. I'm usually sad for the loss and have empathy, but this kind of sent me into an emotional tailspin.

I don't even wanna watch any hockey related videos right now. I'm definitely not ready or in any kind of a mood to watch any of the tribute or highlight videos right now. I'm just so bummed about it. And a lot of the posts I've seen from players he was friends with are hitting me in the feels. Especially the Kevin Hayes one with his nephew (Jimmy's son) and about how Johnny and Jimmy are now reunited. The post from Monahan over the summer on being reunited with Johnny and their kids now getting a chance to grow up is really gut wrenching stuff.

I guess the best word to describe how I'm feeling right now is dejected. I'm not walking around crying, but my spirits are somewhat lowered. I've even lost my stoke over hockey, which I know I'll get back by the first day of camp.

This really didn't even get a whole lot of press outside of hockey publications/hockey media. This is a pretty significant player in hockey and still an active player, who just turned 31 years old.

I can't imagine losing TWO kids in one day to a tragedy like this. Especially during a time of a family event.
 

Darkauron

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Jul 14, 2011
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Yeah, I'm not taking it so well either. And I usually don't take these types of things too badly, since I didn't know them. I'm usually sad for the loss and have empathy, but this kind of sent me into an emotional tailspin.

I don't even wanna watch any hockey related videos right now. I'm definitely not ready or in any kind of a mood to watch any of the tribute or highlight videos right now. I'm just so bummed about it. And a lot of the posts I've seen from players he was friends with are hitting me in the feels. Especially the Kevin Hayes one with his nephew (Jimmy's son) and about how Johnny and Jimmy are now reunited. The post from Monahan over the summer on being reunited with Johnny and their kids now getting a chance to grow up is really gut wrenching stuff.

I guess the best word to describe how I'm feeling right now is dejected. I'm not walking around crying, but my spirits are somewhat lowered. I've even lost my stoke over hockey, which I know I'll get back by the first day of camp.

This really didn't even get a whole lot of press outside of hockey publications/hockey media. This is a pretty significant player in hockey and still an active player, who just turned 31 years old.

Yeah im not taking it well either. Everyone around here is just dejected and sad since I live close by. I drove by his highschool this morning and saw flowers and everything out front. Not a very big holiday weekend right now
 

Bleedred

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Yeah im not taking it well either. Everyone around here is just dejected and sad since I live close by. I drove by his highschool this morning and saw flowers and everything out front. Not a very big holiday weekend right now
One thing I have been meaning to say on a happier note.

Is Johnny Gaudreau maybe the best hockey player ever from New Jersey? He's gotta be close. JVR has played for years and years and had a good career. Same with John Carlson. Bobby Ryan had a pretty good career, though probably not as long as he would have liked.

So yeah, I think even though he's a South Jersey guy and not from Devils territory, I think they should have something dedicated to him in the building, as a pretty significant NHL player born and raised in the state.
 

Darkauron

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Jul 14, 2011
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One thing I have been meaning to say on a happier note.

Is Johnny Gaudreau maybe the best hockey player ever from New Jersey? He's gotta be close. JVR has played for years and years and had a good career. Same with John Carlson. Bobby Ryan had a pretty good career, though probably not as long as he would have liked.

So yeah, I think even though he's a South Jersey guy and not from Devils territory, I think they should have something dedicated to him in the building, as a pretty significant NHL player born and raised in the state.

Yeah they really should. He totally is the best player from jersey. Flyers and devils both should honor him somehow
 

JrFischer54

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Apr 4, 2017
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The technology exists for automobiles to disable themselves if the driver has any detectable alcohol in their system. We could approach the problem that way. As you noted, it’s politically a very difficult proposition.
same could be said for a baby in the back seat. problem is this country has a short attention span and majority of the people wont care in x amount of time and move on until the next tragedy
 

njdevils1982

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Sep 8, 2006
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North of Toronto
I am still stunned and heartbroken about the horrific news. So is my son.

Some excellent posts here - thanks guys and gals. Only thing I’ll add to the Culture aspect is we need more public transport. Not Uber or taxi but rail and bus, and running all night. I know there are things to solve and issues on the negative side but I’ve been in bars in my youth in Boston that I got to by train only to close it and find the T had stopped. We walked but I know others near us hopped into a car. We can do better.

The issues that divide us are manufactured by greed. We are more alike despite outward appearances and superficial preferences. And my god we should care for each other.

toronto runs this. and yes its mostly bar drunks (been there done that) but at least people have the service available


//.

an overnight service called the Blue Night Network. Buses and streetcars run on most major routes (transit stops are marked with a reflective blue band) every morning from about 1:30 a.m. to 5:30 a.m. Service is provided every 30 minutes or better.
 

Xirik

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Sep 24, 2014
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Alberta
I said this on the main board but if you want to put your anger/sadness/grief to do something good you can Donate to

MADD (Mothers against drunk Driving)
Home - MADD

Or if you want to donate more local there is the

NJBWC(New Jersey Bike and Walk Coalition)
Home - New Jersey Bike & Walk Coalition

You can also write/phone/email your Local governments and representatives all the way up to the federal level.
Government - New Jersey Bike & Walk Coalition

Also if you have time on your hands you can donate your time to being a crossing guard or if your are an avid biker you could participate in safe biking workshops in the area.


I think the best way to honor both Johnny and Mathew is to try and make the world a little bit safer.
 

Satans Hockey

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Nov 17, 2010
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same could be said for a baby in the back seat. problem is this country has a short attention span and majority of the people wont care in x amount of time and move on until the next tragedy

Most newer vehicles already have a message that reminds you to check the back seat when you shut it off and they passed it federally that it's going to be mandatory in every car starting with the 2025 models.
 

SteveCangialosi123

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Feb 17, 2012
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A deferred payment is literally written in tot he language of the CBA. This isn't a "this isn't illegal" thing, this is a "it is literally defined as legal."

And why would they have to step in? This is not financial engineering, trust me. The team doesn't receive a real benefit here, except in situations where the SOFR (now that LIBOR is gone) +1.25 number is out of step with actually returns. The cap advantage is not a real thing which is happening.
Isn’t the entire point of the deferred money from the team’s perspective to get the cap hit down to 7.5 from 7.9? Sounds like this has been allowed for almost 20 years but it just hasn’t happened because players don’t want to do it. I’m sure management would do this all the time if players wanted to — why not lower the cap hits?
 

Devils731

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Jun 23, 2008
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Isn’t the entire point of the deferred money from the team’s perspective to get the cap hit down to 7.5 from 7.9? Sounds like this has been allowed for almost 20 years but it just hasn’t happened because players don’t want to do it. I’m sure management would do this all the time if players wanted to — why not lower the cap hits?
I’d state the point as this is to ensure cap hits match the value of when the dollars are given. It wouldn’t surprise me if we checked and front loaded contracts actually carry a slightly higher cap hit than expected due to getting paid earlier, but again at such a marginal difference it matters little.

I do think the league needs to ensure there are tight rules for deferring payments before someone gets creative. Very far out payments when rates are high will end up with a low net present value and this situation isn’t likely something anyone was considering when the CBA was signed.

From a financial perspective the numbers will make sense, the cap hit will match the contract value, but a certain player or financial time may cause cap hits that do end up being lower than most would expect upon hearing the deal or comparing to the expected value.

In a hard cap world, where fans are important, causing negative impressions and possibly actual negative scenarios are better to address earlier than later.
 

MasterofGrond

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Feb 13, 2009
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Isn’t the entire point of the deferred money from the team’s perspective to get the cap hit down to 7.5 from 7.9? Sounds like this has been allowed for almost 20 years but it just hasn’t happened because players don’t want to do it. I’m sure management would do this all the time if players wanted to — why not lower the cap hits?
This is more akin to the player taking a team friendly deal than artificially lowering the cap hit. If the total contract number is 63 million paid straight, this is closer in value to a contract worth 60 million. The player, all other things being equal would prefer his money up front, because money paid today is more valuable than money paid 9 years from now. The options aren’t 63 paid normally or 63 under this structure. It’s something like 63 this way or 60 paid normally, or 57 maximally front loaded.
 
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Satans Hockey

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Nov 17, 2010
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Moment of silence and then Johnny Hockey chants before the MLS Red Bulls game tonight...

20240831_193432.jpg
 

Goptor

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Jun 30, 2016
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If I'm Stan Bowman, I give this contract to Draisatl tomorrow.

2025-26: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2040.
2026-27: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2041.
2027-28: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2042.
2028-29: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2043.
2029-30: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2044.
2030-31: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2045.
2031-32: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2046.
2032-33: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2047.

$8.6m salary cap hit for that.
Not doing the math but its probably over $20m a year for 8 years starting in 2040.
 

MasterofGrond

No, I'm not serious.
Feb 13, 2009
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If I'm Stan Bowman, I give this contract to Draisatl tomorrow.

2025-26: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2040.
2026-27: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2041.
2027-28: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2042.
2028-29: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2043.
2029-30: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2044.
2030-31: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2045.
2031-32: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2046.
2032-33: $17.6m, $9m deferred to 2047.

$8.6m salary cap hit for that.
Not doing the math but its probably over $20m a year for 8 years starting in 2040.
That is not an 8.6M cap hit contract.

The cap hit for that contract would be very close to 14M a season according to the CBA.

Total NPV for that deal, assuming a discount rate of 7% and pretending everything is a signing bonus for simplicity (I think the discount rate would be higher realistically), would be 88.4M

If we instead frontloaded that deal heavily, you could give more or less the same NPV of money to Leon using a deal with an NPV of 13.25M.

If the discount rate is instead 10%, the same value frontloaded deal would be more like 12M.
 
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Goptor

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Jun 30, 2016
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That is not an 8.6M cap hit contract.

The cap hit for that contract would be very close to 14M a season according to the CBA.

Total NPV for that deal, assuming a discount rate of 7% and pretending everything is a signing bonus for simplicity (I think the discount rate would be higher realistically), would be 88.4M

If we instead frontloaded that deal heavily, you could give more or less the same NPV of money to Leon using a deal with an NPV of 13.25M.

If the discount rate is instead 10%, the same value frontloaded deal would be more like 12M.

Yah i realized it was wrong but the concept still stands. Defer a large sum far into the future and you can really lower the amount calculated for the salary cap.
 

MasterofGrond

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Feb 13, 2009
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Yah i realized it was wrong but the concept still stands. Defer a large sum far into the future and you can really lower the amount calculated for the salary cap.
Yes but you have to pay more to make it worth it to the player. the cap hit will be similar either way unless the player's agent is a moron
 

Devils731

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Jun 23, 2008
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That is not an 8.6M cap hit contract.

The cap hit for that contract would be very close to 14M a season according to the CBA.

Total NPV for that deal, assuming a discount rate of 7% and pretending everything is a signing bonus for simplicity (I think the discount rate would be higher realistically), would be 88.4M

If we instead frontloaded that deal heavily, you could give more or less the same NPV of money to Leon using a deal with an NPV of 13.25M.

If the discount rate is instead 10%, the same value frontloaded deal would be more like 12M.
I actually have the math as coming out to a cap hit of ~$12.4 million for that scenario.
Cap hit.png


I did create an even more deferred version where he gets $4.6 million per year and gets $6.5 million per year starting in 2040 for 16 years. In that case his cap hit is $9.15 million.

Obviously the value of the contract is less, which is the reason for the decreased cap hit, but we have seen players in other sports take big deferred payments when they likely didn’t have to.

It would be better for the league and NHLPA to just cut this off right now. If a player truly wants deferred money then have them take the option with interest, the CBA says that deferred money scenario must be counted fully against the cap as earned in the year played, even though it will be paid in later years with interest.
 
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