Around the NHL 2023-2024

[PocketNines]

Salt Lake Coyotes is more syllabically beautiful than the seven syllable mouthful of Arizona Coyotes

 

[ezcreepin]

Call em the SLC Jazz so that they can steal from the Utah Jazz and also fight with St. Louis for who is the better music themed team (Nashville can suck it, nobody cares about country - an ezcreepin opinion)

 

[STL fan in MN]

The Yotes posted a fancy video yesterday about their new proposed arena in Scottsdale. Almost immediately, the mayor of Scottsdale had this to say:

"The prospect of a rookie developer attempting to buy [land] ... at the doorstep of Scottsdale is not feasible, or welcome."

Also yesterday, the Utah Jazz owner Ryan Smith (who would also be the owner of any NHL franchise there) put out a poll asking that if they got a team, what should it be called? You don’t send out a poll like that unless there’s a good chance of it happening…

I suspect they’ll be moved soon. Or at least they should. This dead horse has been beaten for way too long.

 

[Brian39]

The Yotes posted a fancy video yesterday about their new proposed arena in Scottsdale. Almost immediately, the mayor of Scottsdale had this to say:



Also yesterday, the Utah Jazz owner Ryan Smith (who would also be the owner of any NHL franchise there) put out a poll asking that if they got a team, what should it be called? You don’t send out a poll like that unless there’s a good chance of it happening…

I suspect they’ll be moved soon. Or at least they should. This dead horse has been beaten for way too long.

Their arena proposal is not in Scottsdale. It is in Phoenix, right on the border to Scottsdale. Phoenix would get all tax revenue associated with the project as it is within their city limits while Scottsdale gets nothing and the new shopping district that is part of the proposal would directly compete with businesses currently paying taxes in Scottsdale.

This is the mayor of Scottsdale making it crystal clear that Scottsdale isn't providing any infrastructure to a large project that doesn't benefit them in any way and very well might actively harm Scottsdale businesses.

I think that the Coyotes have a good chance of being moved, but this op-ed is akin to the Mayor of St. Louis city criticizing a proposed development in Clayton. It might shift some political opinions, but it doesn't say anything about the viability of the project.

 

[Brian39]

I think the it has become clear that the land auction in June is truly the Coyotes last chance to stay in Arizona. The NHL seems content to let them play in Mullet for a few more years if they actually get the land.

The Coyotes might be looking to get the land as cheap as possible and I could very much see them backing out of a sale if they can't strongarm the state into a deal that they like. It wouldn't surprise me at all if their plan to stay in Arizona is contingent on being the only bidder and getting the land for pennies on the dollar. But I don't see them doing all this if they have already been told that the league won't let them stay in Mullett for several years during construction. I do see them being allowed to stay if they win that land auction.

However, the NHL has pretty clearly reached the point where they need to see real progress and a land purchase now. I don't see the NHL accepting 'well we are still trying to find land' if this proposal falls through. And I'd bet good money that there are real negotiations taking place behind the scenes for a sale of the Coyotes to Ryan Smith in Utah. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the team is officially sold within a week of a failed land auction because all the paperwork had already been negotiated and was essentially just waiting for signatures.

The league absolutely has to have a contingency plan in place if the Coyotes lose the land auction in June. Having them play a lame duck season in Mullett is the worst case scenario. A June (or July) relocation of a team is far from ideal, but it is better than that.

 

[STL fan in MN]

Their arena proposal is not in Scottsdale. It is in Phoenix, right on the border to Scottsdale. Phoenix would get all tax revenue associated with the project as it is within their city limits while Scottsdale gets nothing and the new shopping district that is part of the proposal would directly compete with businesses currently paying taxes in Scottsdale.

This is the mayor of Scottsdale making it crystal clear that Scottsdale isn't providing any infrastructure to a large project that doesn't benefit them in any way and very well might actively harm Scottsdale businesses.

I think that the Coyotes have a good chance of being moved, but this op-ed is akin to the Mayor of St. Louis city criticizing a proposed development in Clayton. It might shift some political opinions, but it doesn't say anything about the viability of the project.

Interesting. Didn’t know that and that does change the calculus a bit.

Is the city of Phoenix more accepting of the idea?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Their arena proposal is not in Scottsdale. It is in Phoenix, right on the border to Scottsdale. Phoenix would get all tax revenue associated with the project as it is within their city limits while Scottsdale gets nothing and the new shopping district that is part of the proposal would directly compete with businesses currently paying taxes in Scottsdale.

This is the mayor of Scottsdale making it crystal clear that Scottsdale isn't providing any infrastructure to a large project that doesn't benefit them in any way and very well might actively harm Scottsdale businesses.

I think that the Coyotes have a good chance of being moved, but this op-ed is akin to the Mayor of St. Louis city criticizing a proposed development in Clayton. It might shift some political opinions, but it doesn't say anything about the viability of the project.

Scottsdale mayor isn't wrong. I assume he largely just wants to to share in upside (tax dollars generated) since he is going to eat the downside (traffic, competitor across freeway). That doesn't seem like an unsurmountable obstacle, but is a reminder that this plan is far from sure thing to come to fruition even if they win the auction.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Their arena proposal is not in Scottsdale. It is in Phoenix, right on the border to Scottsdale. Phoenix would get all tax revenue associated with the project as it is within their city limits while Scottsdale gets nothing and the new shopping district that is part of the proposal would directly compete with businesses currently paying taxes in Scottsdale.

This is the mayor of Scottsdale making it crystal clear that Scottsdale isn't providing any infrastructure to a large project that doesn't benefit them in any way and very well might actively harm Scottsdale businesses.

I think that the Coyotes have a good chance of being moved, but this op-ed is akin to the Mayor of St. Louis city criticizing a proposed development in Clayton. It might shift some political opinions, but it doesn't say anything about the viability of the project.

Interesting. Didn’t know that and that does change the calculus a bit.

Is the city of Phoenix more accepting of the idea?

Scottsdale mayor isn't wrong. I assume he largely just wants to to share in upside (tax dollars generated) since he is going to eat the downside (traffic, competitor across freeway). That doesn't seem like an unsurmountable obstacle, but is a reminder that this plan is far from sure thing to come to fruition even if they win the auction.

If you guys are curious, Craig Morgan (coyotes insider) was on Spittin Chiclets yesterday breaking it down, and one thing he mentioned was all the stuff Brian mentioned as far as the location of the land, but IIRC, he also mentioned that phoenix would get all the tax benefit, but Scottsdale would have to supply all the water, power, etc.

 

[Xerloris]

God please just let it happen. They need to be put out of their misery already.

 

[Beauterham]

I wonder what happens to Bill Armstrong if the Coyotes indeed relocate to Salt Lake City.

I'm not on the 'fire Doug Armstrong-train', however if, for some reason, he was let go and Bill Armstrong would become available, that would be a really easy hire... and you don't even have to put another name on the door.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I wonder what happens to Bill Armstrong if the Coyotes indeed relocate to Salt Lake City.

I'm not on the 'fire Doug Armstrong-train', however if, for some reason, he was let go and Bill Armstrong would become available, that would be a really easy hire... and you don't even have to put another name on the door.

that would be awful move for us. what has bill done to merit another gm job?

 

[STL fan in MN]

I wonder what happens to Bill Armstrong if the Coyotes indeed relocate to Salt Lake City.

I'm not on the 'fire Doug Armstrong-train', however if, for some reason, he was let go and Bill Armstrong would become available, that would be a really easy hire... and you don't even have to put another name on the door.

I’m not sure of Bill Army’s contract situation but the franchise would still exist and thus his contract would remain valid.

Unless there’s some sort of out clause in the event of a relocation but that’s pure speculation. I suppose the new owner might not want Bill and want his own guy but he’d have to fire him then and pay out the rest of his contract.

 

[PeoriaBlues309]

that would be awful move for us. what has bill done to merit another gm job?

Right lol like he’s accrued a bunch of draft picks, but outside of Cooley and Guenther, it hasn’t really amounted to much yet?

 

[STL fan in MN]

Right lol like he’s accrued a bunch of draft picks, but outside of Cooley and Guenther, it hasn’t really amounted to much yet?

Well they hired him in Sept 2020 so he’s only had 3 drafts under his belt there. That’d be like saying Army hasn’t accomplished anything lately since Bolduc, Snuggerud and Dvorsky aren’t contributing much to the team yet.

He got Guenther and Moser in 2021. Doan too who recently got called up like Bolduc did here.

2022 was Cooley, Geekie and Lamoureux.

Last year they got Simashev, But, Hrabel, Nordh etc.

He’s building a good pool but it takes time. And he’s doing it with basically both hands tied behind his back as he’s not really allowed to spend more than the bare minimum.

I’m not saying he’s great but I don’t think he’s bungled things either.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Well they hired him in Sept 2020 so he’s only had 3 drafts under his belt there. That’d be like saying Army hasn’t accomplished anything lately since Bolduc, Snuggerud and Dvorsky aren’t contributing much to the team yet.

He got Guenther and Moser in 2021. Doan too who recently got called up like Bolduc did here.

2022 was Cooley, Geekie and Lamoureux.

Last year they got Simashev, But, Hrabel, Nordh etc.

He’s building a good pool but it takes time. And he’s doing it with basically both hands tied behind his back as he’s not really allowed to spend more than the bare minimum.

I’m not saying he’s great but I don’t think he’s bungled things either.

i don't mean to be harsh, but everyone loves on him in this forum and i don't get it. not the drafting, i don't have issue with that, but the gm-ing. his trade history isn't spectacular. he certainly seemed to overplay his hand on chycrun. his teams haven't won. on the other hand, he got his guys to wear corny suits tot he draft and there are stories about abusive work environment under him. so no, i don't see any reason where he has shown to be good gm.

 

[PeoriaBlues309]

Well they hired him in Sept 2020 so he’s only had 3 drafts under his belt there. That’d be like saying Army hasn’t accomplished anything lately since Bolduc, Snuggerud and Dvorsky aren’t contributing much to the team yet.

He got Guenther and Moser in 2021. Doan too who recently got called up like Bolduc did here.

2022 was Cooley, Geekie and Lamoureux.

Last year they got Simashev, But, Hrabel, Nordh etc.

He’s building a good pool but it takes time. And he’s doing it with basically both hands tied behind his back as he’s not really allowed to spend more than the bare minimum.

I’m not saying he’s great but I don’t think he’s bungled things either.

And just like people have said about our Army, those prospects still need to hit or else he’s in trouble. I don’t think he’s a terrible GM, but I wouldn’t necessarily run to replace Doug with him if he were to become available. There are very few current GM’s I’d do that with.

 

[Celtic Note]

I think Bill Army was a really strong Director of Amateur Scouting. As a GM? He has been just ok I guess. I would say it’s a bit hard to judge a guy’s performance in a situation like Arizona because they are both cheap and not a desirable destination (UFAs and NTCs have to be a huge hurdle), plus whoever stepped into that situation was straddled with a poor culture, atmosphere and not a great foundation. You would have to be pretty exceptional to look good in that role. But outside of an exceptional GM there, it would be hard to fairly judge a persons GMing ability there at that point in time.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Man I hope Columbus wins the Draft Lotto....

 

[ezcreepin]

I don't know if it's really fair to BArmstrong to critique his role as GM just yet. His job has been mainly to rebuild that entire team and if you look at his trade history, that's exactly what it shows. He's only been GM there since 2020 and only had drafts 2021-now to get his players. He's drafted some decent players in the higher rounds, maybe not so much past the 3rd round, but these kids are still very young so the jury is out. If I had to guess I'd bet he is a pretty good hockey mind as far as GMs are concerned, but like others have said the team is cheap and not willing to spend. If he gets fired, I'd hold out judgement until at least a few years in the new position.

 

[BlueDream]

i don't mean to be harsh, but everyone loves on him in this forum and i don't get it. not the drafting, i don't have issue with that, but the gm-ing. his trade history isn't spectacular. he certainly seemed to overplay his hand on chycrun. his teams haven't won. on the other hand, he got his guys to wear corny suits tot he draft and there are stories about abusive work environment under him. so no, i don't see any reason where he has shown to be good gm.

“His teams haven’t won” - what great insight here… that’s because the team is rebuilding. His entire goal was to stockpile draft picks, which he has done. Many of their prospects and young players look quite good.

“His trades haven’t been spectacular.” Well anyone with a NTC won’t waive for the Coyotes so they are limited there. But I don’t know what you’re looking at, they look pretty good to me. He has jettisoned out veteran players that weren’t in their future and taken back some cap dumps to stockpile picks. Let’s review the good value he has gotten:

-- Dealt old Derek Stepan for 2nd round pick
-- Acquired two 2nds and a 3rd to take Andrew Ladd’s contract from NYI
-- Acquired a 2nd and 7th to take Gostisbehere’s contract from Philly. Then flipped Ghost for a 3rd.
— Moved the contracts of OEL and Garland for other cap dumps + a 1st and a 2nd
— Got a 2nd rounder from Florida for taking Stralman’s contract
— Got a 1st and 3rd for Kuemper
— Got a 1st and 2nd for Dvorak
— Got a 2nd for Lyubushkin
— Flipped a 2nd for Jack McBain
— Flipped a 2nd for Sean Durzi
— Acquired a 3rd for Johan Larsson (who then went to Europe)
— Acquired an additional 2nd and 3rd to take Kassian from Edmonton
— Acquired a 2nd and 3rd to take Nemeth from NYR
— Got a 1st and two 2nds for Chychrun
— Acquired Kesselring and a 3rd for UFA Bjugstad

In one year in the Summer of 2025, basically all of that dead cap will be gone. Meanwhile they have young guys like Cooley, Guenther, Hayton, Maccelli, Carcone, Doan, Durzi, Kesselring, Moser all contributing for them already (obviously Keller too). Oh yeah and they have a top 10 prospect pool with guys like Simashev, But, Hrabal, Geekie, Lamoureux on the way.

And they aren’t done either. In the next 3 years, here’s what they have in the draft…

2024: 7 picks in the first 3 rounds
2025: 5 picks in the first 2 rounds
2026: 6 picks in the first 3 rounds

With Bill’s drafting pedigree, they are set up to have a very successful rebuild and become a very good team if they move somewhere else with better ownership. So he’s doing exactly what he needed to do. They have a foundational core and have the potential to be stacked with young talent pretty darn soon.

It’s amazing how you can constantly talk about the flat cap and make excuses for Doug but fail to see when other GMs have similar (and actually much worse) constraints against them. GM’ing the Coyotes in the middle of the absolute mess they have been would be a nightmare for most people. Bill has done more than fine given the circumstances, and he also deserves much more time. I would 100% trust this guy to re-tool the Blues.

 

[STL fan in MN]

And just like people have said about our Army, those prospects still need to hit or else he’s in trouble. I don’t think he’s a terrible GM, but I wouldn’t necessarily run to replace Doug with him if he were to become available. There are very few current GM’s I’d do that with.

Oh, I absolutely wouldn’t replace our Army with that one. Just thought it was unfair to critique his drafting record when it’s been a very short time and he’s built a pretty good prospect pool in that short time.

I honestly have no idea if he’s a good GM or not. I don’t think it would be possible to tell with a team like Arizona unless the guy was an absolute idiot. But given the sh!t circumstances, he seems to have at least performed competently IMO.

 

[STL fan in MN]

i don't mean to be harsh, but everyone loves on him in this forum and i don't get it. not the drafting, i don't have issue with that, but the gm-ing. his trade history isn't spectacular. he certainly seemed to overplay his hand on chycrun. his teams haven't won. on the other hand, he got his guys to wear corny suits tot he draft and there are stories about abusive work environment under him. so no, i don't see any reason where he has shown to be good gm.

I don’t recall personally talking about Bill Army much over the years and my intention isn’t to “love on” the guy now. I think he’s been fine. But damn near impossible to tell with the situation he’s in.

I think he did alright with the Chychrun trade. People gave him crap for saying he wanted 2 1sts and he got 1…but it was the 12th overall pick. A typical buyer is going to be a team that ends up with picks in the 23-32 range. I’d say Ottawa’s 1st was worth close to double what a late 1st is worth. Quality over quantity.

That said, I don’t remotely care that much about Bill Army. But assuming this move happens and assuming he stays the GM, I’ll be interested to see if he can actually be a good GM if has an owner and building that allows for a normal operation.

 

[Brockon]

“His teams haven’t won” - what great insight here… that’s because the team is rebuilding. His entire goal was to stockpile draft picks, which he has done. Many of their prospects and young players look quite good.

“His trades haven’t been spectacular.” Well anyone with a NTC won’t waive for the Coyotes so they are limited there. But I don’t know what you’re looking at, they look pretty good to me. He has jettisoned out veteran players that weren’t in their future and taken back some cap dumps to stockpile picks. Let’s review the good value he has gotten:

-- Dealt old Derek Stepan for 2nd round pick
-- Acquired two 2nds and a 3rd to take Andrew Ladd’s contract from NYI
-- Acquired a 2nd and 7th to take Gostisbehere’s contract from Philly. Then flipped Ghost for a 3rd.
— Moved the contracts of OEL and Garland for other cap dumps + a 1st and a 2nd
— Got a 2nd rounder from Florida for taking Stralman’s contract
— Got a 1st and 3rd for Kuemper
— Got a 1st and 2nd for Dvorak
— Got a 2nd for Lyubushkin
— Flipped a 2nd for Jack McBain
— Flipped a 2nd for Sean Durzi
— Acquired a 3rd for Johan Larsson (who then went to Europe)
— Acquired an additional 2nd and 3rd to take Kassian from Edmonton
— Acquired a 2nd and 3rd to take Nemeth from NYR
— Got a 1st and two 2nds for Chychrun
— Acquired Kesselring and a 3rd for UFA Bjugstad

In one year in the Summer of 2025, basically all of that dead cap will be gone. Meanwhile they have young guys like Cooley, Guenther, Hayton, Maccelli, Carcone, Doan, Durzi, Kesselring, Moser all contributing for them already (obviously Keller too). Oh yeah and they have a top 10 prospect pool with guys like Simashev, But, Hrabal, Geekie, Lamoureux on the way.

And they aren’t done either. In the next 3 years, here’s what they have in the draft…

2024: 7 picks in the first 3 rounds
2025: 5 picks in the first 2 rounds
2026: 6 picks in the first 3 rounds

With Bill’s drafting pedigree, they are set up to have a very successful rebuild and become a very good team if they move somewhere else with better ownership. So he’s doing exactly what he needed to do. They have a foundational core and have the potential to be stacked with young talent pretty darn soon.

It’s amazing how you can constantly talk about the flat cap and make excuses for Doug but fail to see when other GMs have similar (and actually much worse) constraints against them. GM’ing the Coyotes in the middle of the absolute mess they have been would be a nightmare for most people. Bill has done more than fine given the circumstances, and he also deserves much more time. I would 100% trust this guy to re-tool the Blues.

Another point to make is the continued trend of signing UFAs despite being a pretty undesirable location - and then flipping these guys for further assets at the TDL, despite poor returns this year (which I'll remind everyone, very few returns were noteworthy).

Dumba
Zucker
Stetcher

And minor correction - Michael Carcone turns 28 in a month, he's played 101 NHL games to date. He's not young, he's got 7 AHL seasons with 30 NHL games prior to spending the entire season with the Yotes this year.

Bill Armstrong has done a pretty good job of providing veteran additions to shelter prospects until they're ready.

Also worth mentioning, is that this year's active roster counts for under 47m against the cap. Bill is operating under the continued financial constraints admirably and has the draft capital to make significant asset acquisitions whenever ownership decides they're willing to pay money to their team, rather than have insurance cover LTIR money owed to dead cap hits Arizona has become the landing spot for in exchange for draft picks and prospects.

Players like Voracek, Weber and Little account for ~21.5m towards the salary floor for Arizona this year. Next year the Yotes have 44m in contracts (counting Weber's dead cap hit) - with not a single dman under contract for next year. You want to see Bill show something, look at what he does by July 15th once the Desert drama is done and UFA opens.

Edit italicized : added acquisition to post, which I forgot initially.

 

[Beauterham]

that would be awful move for us. what has bill done to merit another gm job?

I was ready to send you a wall of text how I disagree, but I'm glad @BlueDream already did that. Saves me a lot of time.

But just to add to his post, GMBA did all of that in some of the worst possible circumstances. First, he had to clean up Chayka's mess, you had the new stadium / relocation saga, playing in a university arena, players who don't want to sign for you due to all of this, etc. And he still stoically kept doing his job in a positive way while being a really good communicator. He gave the fans a realistic timetable and so far he is sticking to it. He does not try to rush things and above all wants to lay the best possible foundation for the future (rosterwise). The intention is that Arizona will start to play a significant role in the playoffs in 2 years. Until then, the team must take small steps every season; and they do, with BA continuously keeping fans informed of the plans.

Perhaps the biggest indicator of how GMBA is doing are the fans. After everything that happened (/is happening) with Arizona, you'd expect them to be ready to pick up their pitchforks and run everyone associated with Arizona out of town. However, when you read their forums we see messages in the vein of: "I will only support a team in Utah if BA stays with that team". Whatever the opinion is of him in the league, the fans apparantly are very happy with his performance in Arizona. And that in, probably, the most hostile environment in hockey.

 

[PJJJP]

Bill has done a good job in getting a lot of assets for the Coyotes in both picks and prospects. However the hard part will be if he can turn the Coyotes into a playoff team in the next couple of years. As we have seen with other teams it can be hard to get out from the bottom.