Around the NHL 2022-2023 *Mod warning in effect pg145

[Majorityof1]

If this works, and I still think that's a big IF, it will work offensively because ROR and Saad adapt to Kyrou speeding into the zone and dragging the D into their own zone, and ROR and Saad are able to come in a stride or two behind and clean up the chaos Kyrou is creating. It could also depend on how adept Saad and ROR (and our D pairs for that matter) become at springing Kyrou out of our zone or through the neutral zone to begin the transition.

On the defensive side, Kyrou is never going to be a guy who wins a lot of puck battles with physicality. What he can do to help the team (and himself) is to learn from ROR on how to win puck battles through stick position and craftiness, then make better decisions with the puck when he does drag it out of a scrum. Where better to learn to be better at those things than on the wing of one of the best in the game?

Defensively, Kyrou can help on the backcheck. His speed allows him to catch up to guys and surprise them by stripping the puck. He was excellent at that at the beginning of last year, but that aspect of his game fell off. That's what I'd like to see. Kyrou and Saad on the forecheck with RoR waiting to intercept passes and Kyrou hustling on the backcheck to try to create chaos in the middle of the ice while the D slow the rush and hold the line. That goes along with what you are saying about using his stick and being crafty.

Offensively, I disagree a bit. I think Kyrou needs to learn to play the cycle game a bit more and strike when the opportunity is there. I don't think RoR and Saad can learn foot speed. That is what are lacking. Kyrou gets the puck on the breakout and he is deep in the offensive zone before RoR and Saad are even really going. Then he is all alone and the D know what he's going to do as he always does it, so they are all back already. Wait for Saad and RoR to enter the zone with numbers, try to play the cycle game. But the couple to several times a game when you can catch the D flat-footed, then turn on those afterburners and maybe catch them surprised. Thomas is an excellent example of someone who uses his speed and elusiveness to play a really effective cycle/possession game. If Kyrou can learn from that to play with Saad and Ror, that line would be great at both ends with a quick strike ability to catch the opposing team when tired or when their concentration lapses.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I think those teams will all be striving for the 1st+good prospect package for those players and will likely end up getting either the 1st or a good prospect in the eventual package. If (and again, big if) Bortz and Mikko are a genuinely competent 3rd pair, I'm not interested in paying that kind of price to upgrade a pair that you only want playing 12-15 minutes a night in the playoffs.

as the saying goes, wish in 1 hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first. they aren't all gonna get 1st and good prospect.

 

[MissouriMook]

Defensively, Kyrou can help on the backcheck. His speed allows him to catch up to guys and surprise them by stripping the puck. He was excellent at that at the beginning of last year, but that aspect of his game fell off. That's what I'd like to see. Kyrou and Saad on the forecheck with RoR waiting to intercept passes and Kyrou hustling on the backcheck to try to create chaos in the middle of the ice while the D slow the rush and hold the line. That goes along with what you are saying about using his stick and being crafty.

Offensively, I disagree a bit. I think Kyrou needs to learn to play the cycle game a bit more and strike when the opportunity is there. I don't think RoR and Saad can learn foot speed. That is what are lacking. Kyrou gets the puck on the breakout and he is deep in the offensive zone before RoR and Saad are even really going. Then he is all alone and the D know what he's going to do as he always does it, so they are all back already. Wait for Saad and RoR to enter the zone with numbers, try to play the cycle game. But the couple to several times a game when you can catch the D flat-footed, then turn on those afterburners and maybe catch them surprised. Thomas is an excellent example of someone who uses his speed and elusiveness to play a really effective cycle/possession game. If Kyrou can learn from that to play with Saad and Ror, that line would be great at both ends with a quick strike ability to catch the opposing team when tired or when their concentration lapses.

While I don't disagree that Kyrou would do well to improve his effectiveness in a cycle game for times when we have extended O-Zone time with him on the ice, I sure don't think that should be the focus of any shift when he is on the ice. Taking away his most valuable asset (his speed) and trying to do the "5 man unit" thing when he's out there turns him into just a guy. He needs to use his speed to collapse defenses every chance he gets and his linemates are just going to have to figure out how to get up the ice more quickly. If he scores off the rush, great. If he doesn't, then he and his linemates (and occasionally the activating defense) need to be able to take advantage of the rebound opportunities he is creating or cycle to keep it in the zone.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you are suggesting, but I don't think asking Kyrou to slow down for his linemates is ideal, and I think that Thomas and Kyrou are just simply different players that shouldn't necessarily be trying to play the game like each other. Thomas, as you point out, is effective in pushing the D back and waiting for help, but that's because he is more of a set-up guy. Kyrou is more of a "get through the D and create havoc" kind of speedster. Kyrou is trying to create time and space in front for himself and Thomas is trying to create time and space behind for his line mates. Aside from his defense and puck retention, I really think Kyrou just needs to sharpen his shooting and become more dangerous behind the defense even when he isn't able to create time and space. I will admit, though, that he needs to stop trying to get through 3-4 guys on the rush and find ways to create more rather than trying to finish rushes that have low probabilities of generating high danger chances. In that sense he can be more like Thomas, but that should generally be his Plan B unless he is mixing it up for deception purposes.

 

[Majorityof1]

While I don't disagree that Kyrou would do well to improve his effectiveness in a cycle game for times when we have extended O-Zone time with him on the ice, I sure don't think that should be the focus of any shift when he is on the ice. Taking away his most valuable asset (his speed) and trying to do the "5 man unit" thing when he's out there turns him into just a guy. He needs to use his speed to collapse defenses every chance he gets and his linemates are just going to have to figure out how to get up the ice more quickly. If he scores off the rush, great. If he doesn't, then he and his linemates (and occasionally the activating defense) need to be able to take advantage of the rebound opportunities he is creating or cycle to keep it in the zone.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you are suggesting, but I don't think asking Kyrou to slow down for his linemates is ideal, and I think that Thomas and Kyrou are just simply different players that shouldn't necessarily be trying to play the game like each other. Thomas, as you point out, is effective in pushing the D back and waiting for help, but that's because he is more of a set-up guy. Kyrou is more of a "get through the D and create havoc" kind of speedster. Kyrou is trying to create time and space in front for himself and Thomas is trying to create time and space behind for his line mates. Aside from his defense and puck retention, I really think Kyrou just needs to sharpen his shooting and become more dangerous behind the defense even when he isn't able to create time and space. I will admit, though, that he needs to stop trying to get through 3-4 guys on the rush and find ways to create more rather than trying to finish rushes that have low probabilities of generating high danger chances. In that sense he can be more like Thomas, but that should generally be his Plan B unless he is mixing it up for deception purposes.

But what good is it if Kyrou rushes and creates havok if he doesn't get a shot with a chance to score off. The number of times rushing up ice leads to breakaways is small. The number of times it leads to odd man rushes is even smaller with Saad and RoR failing to get up ice. As you say, he needs to stop trying to go through 2, 3, and even 4 guys on his own to send a shot wide past the goalie that they easily snatch up with numbers. He needs to learn to recognize which rush is an opportunity for a breakaway or a 1on 1 matchup and take those.

On the times when the other team has numbers, then yes, he needs to figure out how to hold up. Thomas does it by rushing deep and then turning back up the boards. Kyrou can find his own method. But Kyrou is a playmaker. He has great edgework to be elusive and buy time. He has the passing and vision to make a play to the guys trailing. That is a much better opportunity then skate in and shoot-wide or lose the puck making a move through multiple defenders every time,

Barring a breakaway or a play to the trailing forwards, then yes, he needs to learn to better settle into a set 5v5 zone possession offensive. Even if the cycle to Kyrou is more like MacKinnon and Kane who skate around the offensive zone on a one-man cycle. They are players who have learned to use their speed as an asset in a set offense. That is something that puts them a notch above Kyrou and most other players. They are still effective when those few opportunities for quick strikes aren't there. But I agree, his shot still needs work to truly reach their level as well. Remember, RoR is going to be on the ice against those players. Do we really want to shoot the puck wide and give McDavid another shot going the other way, or do we want to burn his shift by keeping the puck in our zone?

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I don't think you should be asking yourself if Chief wants ROR and Kyrou together as much as you should be asking if he has a reason for NOT wanting to put Kyrou and Thomas together as is your wish. It may very well be that he is looking to spread the speed and dynamics that Kyrou and Thomas bring around a bit rather than having it on one line and leaving two of the other three top lines wanting for a speed element.

I don't know that this is necessarily Chief being stubborn and trying to make this work, even if it does seem like square peg meets round hole. I think he is just trying to see what it looks like, and if some of the defensive traits of guys like ROR and Saad can rub off on Kyrou and, at the same time, give those two a reason to step their game up a little bit to try to "keep up with the kid" in a more transition-based style rather than playing more of a cycle game. More than anything, I think Chief values versatility in his forward group so that he has 3-4 lines that can all play the kind of game he thinks they need to play in a given situation or against a particular opponent.

Agree. I didn't feel like typing anymore words. You wrote it for me.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

I think that if Tarasenko walks next year we absolutely should explore pairing Thomas and Kyrou together. Thomas can keep up with Kyrou and I can imagine them giving opponents fits.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I think that if Tarasenko walks next year we absolutely should explore pairing Thomas and Kyrou together. Thomas can keep up with Kyroub and I can imagine them giving opponents fits.

I think that's the goal. Especially if they keep RoR.

I can definitely see them going more of a top heavy team next year

Saad-RoR-Schenn
Buchnevich-Thomas-Kyrou
Neighbors-Brown-???

 

[Brian39]

as the saying goes, wish in 1 hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first. they aren't all gonna get 1st and good prospect.

I don't know if any of them will get both, but I think most (if not all) of the sellers of top 4 D will get either a 1st or a good prospect in the package.

Not all of the potentially available guys will actually become available. Of the 4 guys listed by @PocketNines (Gavrikov, Orlov, Mayfield and Zub), I'd wager that 1-2 will be extended before the deadline. At least one of those teams will still be in the midst of a playoff push by the deadline and will opt to keep the player as an 'own rental' if the best trade package on the table is just a couple mid-to-low value assets. I'm not expecting 3 of these players to actually hit the rental market and I think there is a good chance that at least one of them is traded for a package contingent on an immediate extension.

I'll be very surprised if the Sens don't retain Zub. They only have 3 NHL D men under contract for next season and 2 of them play on the left side. Hamonic's $3M is coming off the books and he's already passed Zaitzev on the depth chart. They've got decent cap flexibility next year and I think he is their 2nd priority behind DeBrincat.

The Caps will only be sellers if they are truly out of the playoff race. If they are remotely in the hunt, they are going to give Ovi every chance to take a swing in the playoffs.

I like Gavrikov a lot, but he's become a legit #2 D man this year and I think that someone will absolutely give up a 1st or former 1st round prospect for him if he becomes available.

I think Mayfield will be made available, but his price will be dependent on how many other D men are available in the market.

If we can land a guy like this without giving up a 1st or one of Bolduc/Snug, then I'm 100% in favor of bolstering the #5 D spot no matter how Mikkola and Bortz look. My prediction is that unless we are desperate enough to give up one of those 3 assets, we will be inthe marketplace for a guy who is a tier down of this group.

 

[Brian39]

I don't think you should be asking yourself if Chief wants ROR and Kyrou together as much as you should be asking if he has a reason for NOT wanting to put Kyrou and Thomas together as is your wish. It may very well be that he is looking to spread the speed and dynamics that Kyrou and Thomas bring around a bit rather than having it on one line and leaving two of the other three top lines wanting for a speed element.

I don't know that this is necessarily Chief being stubborn and trying to make this work, even if it does seem like square peg meets round hole. I think he is just trying to see what it looks like, and if some of the defensive traits of guys like ROR and Saad can rub off on Kyrou and, at the same time, give those two a reason to step their game up a little bit to try to "keep up with the kid" in a more transition-based style rather than playing more of a cycle game. More than anything, I think Chief values versatility in his forward group so that he has 3-4 lines that can all play the kind of game he thinks they need to play in a given situation or against a particular opponent.

I don't think it is about not wanting Thomas and Kyrou together as much as it is about actively wanting Thomas and Tarasenko together. Tarasenko had a career year last season and he played 716 of his 852 minutes with Thomas. His xGF% with Thomas was 49% and it fell to 38.6% without Thomas. Thomas and Tarasenko were +9 together at 5 on 5. Tarasenko set his career-high in points and even strength points. Playing with Thomas got Tarasenko to a new level at 5 on 5. I know scoring is up league-wide, but he eclipsed his career-high point total by 7 points with 7 fewer games played. He'd never been a point per game player before, with his previous career-best being a 77.7 point pace. He played at an 89.7 point pace last year.

Tarasenko had 8 more even strength goals and 13 more even strength points playing with Thomas last year than he did playing primarily with ROR in 2018/19. Berube moved Tarasenko away from ROR for the Cup run and never went back to them as a pairing after that.

Tarasenko already has 5 even strength points this year and Thomas/Tarasenko are up 4-1 on the ice together at 5 on 5.

There is a very, very good reason not to want to break that duo up. They have been fantastic together. I think we'll see Thomas and Kyrou together a ton during their 8 year contracts. But right now, there isn't a ton of rush to break up Thomas and Tarasenko.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

The chances of it happening are next to nil, but the more Vancouver struggles, the higher the chances I can see my dream of Pettersson in a Blue note.

Horvat is the likeliest candidate to be traded here if anything were to happen. But getting Pettersson could be like O'Reilly 2.0.

Again, the chances are astronomically low. But it's not zero, and that's something.

 

[MissouriMook]

The chances of it happening are next to nil, but the more Vancouver struggles, the higher the chances I can see my dream of Pettersson in a Blue note.

Horvat is the likeliest candidate to be traded here if anything were to happen. But getting Pettersson could be like O'Reilly 2.0.

Again, the chances are astronomically low. But it's not zero, and that's something.

Yeah, well, I won't believe it until Eklund says it's happening.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I’ve been curious about how hockey players approach nutrition and came across this article.

 

[finnishflash13]

pessimistic this team's offense is suddenly going to take off with players like Leivo, Pitlick, and even Brown regularly in the lineup. hopefully saad and buchenvich can return soon, otherwise this season might get ugly quick.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

pessimistic this team's offense is suddenly going to take off with players like Leivo, Pitlick, and even Brown regularly in the lineup. hopefully saad and buchenvich can return soon, otherwise this season might get ugly quick.

Problem isn’t the bottom 6, it’s the top 6. Need Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, tank to step up.

 

[finnishflash13]

Problem isn’t the bottom 6, it’s the top 6. Need Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, tank to step up.

didn't say it wasn't the top 6. said the injuries to two top 6 players have hurt the lineup's offense.

 

[TheDizee]

Problem isn’t the bottom 6, it’s the top 6. Need Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, tank to step up.

i think thomas is doing OK, I am not putting him in the doghouse yet. He always seems to have a positive impact when hes on the ice thus far.

Other 2 absolutely are trash this year and need to play better.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

didn't say it wasn't the top 6. said the injuries to two top 6 players have hurt the lineup's offense.

of course, but there is still talent there. We haven't scored ES goal in nearly 4 games. That is one guys who are playing.

 

[BlueDream]

Problem isn’t the bottom 6, it’s the top 6. Need Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, tank to step up.

It can be both. Tarasenko and Schenn are literally above a PPG right now, Thomas is just below. What more do you want from them? Why do they need to do more while the bottom 6 gets a pass?

As that poster stated, Leivo, Brown and Pitlick don’t inspire much confidence. Toropchenko never produces anything, and in half the games I still question whether Neighbours is ready.

Walker and Acciari are the only guys down there that I think look good and deserve to be in the lineup every night. The rest need to produce too, it’s a team effort.

 

[bleedblue1223]

It can be both. Tarasenko and Schenn are literally above a PPG right now, Thomas is just below. What more do you want from them? Why do they need to do more while the bottom 6 gets a pass?

As that poster stated, Leivo, Brown and Pitlick don’t inspire much confidence. Toropchenko never produces anything, and in half the games I still question whether Neighbours is ready.

Walker and Acciari are the only guys down there that I think look good and deserve to be in the lineup every night. The rest need to produce too, it’s a team effort.

Yep. There's not much scoring upside in our bottom 6 once we get hit with injuries, and Neighbours could, but he'd probably need to be on the healthy 3rd line of Schenn and Barbashev.

 

[Brian39]

It can be both. Tarasenko and Schenn are literally above a PPG right now, Thomas is just below. What more do you want from them? Why do they need to do more while the bottom 6 gets a pass?

As that poster stated, Leivo, Brown and Pitlick don’t inspire much confidence. Toropchenko never produces anything, and in half the games I still question whether Neighbours is ready.

Walker and Acciari are the only guys down there that I think look good and deserve to be in the lineup every night. The rest need to produce too, it’s a team effort.

I don't think anyone is complaining about their efforts in the first 2 games of the season where they were fantastic. The team is on pace for 98 points due to that early 3 game win streak. Any complaints are about the last 5 days, not the (short) season as a whole.

Anyone saying they need to be better or do more is talking about the last 3 games where our even strength offense has dried up. Schenn, Tarasenko, and Thomas have combined for a single 'even strength' point in those 3 games. That lone point was Thomas winning a faceoff to Faulk who buried a 200 foot shot into an empty net.

Berube has (for the most part) loaded the healthy top 9 talent into 2 lines. The clear expectation was that the bottom 6 would try to play the other team even and the top 6 would have to beat the other team's top 6 (or at least go even and give us a chance to win the game with special teams). The bottom 6 has lived up to their end of the bargain for the most part. Torpo and Walker are even. Brown, Acciari, Leivo and Pitlick are each -1. ROR, Schenn, Thomas, Kyrou, and Neighbours are -3, Barby is -2 and Tarasenko is -1. None of them have been great, but that is an admirable contribution from the guys who are 10-15 on the healthy depth chart.

I'm not concerned medium or long term about any player on this roster (versus my pre-season expectations). I don't see systemic issues with the team and I don't think that players who have proven scoring ability have lost the ability to do so. With that said, I think it is reasonable to be more frustrated at the top 6 than the bottom 6. They've been caved in the last couple games at 5 on 5 while the bottom 6 full of mostly 4th line and NHL/AHL tweeners has been at least holding their own.

 

[Majorityof1]

Problem isn’t the bottom 6, it’s the top 6. Need Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, tank to step up.

As I pointed out in another post, we need a strong 3rd and 4th line to exploit matchups. Right now, ROR, Kyrou and Saad (if healthy, if not whoever), are focused on defense. They have to face the other team's best and take mainly defensive faceoffs most games. This doesn't neuter them completely offensively, but it has an effect. With Buch hurt, we only have one other line with Thomas, Tarasenko-Schenn. Teams can key on that line, and neutralize them. We don't have McDavid or MacKinnon who will get theirs no matter what. We have good players but they need to exploit weaknesses not impose their will. With a weakened 3rd line from injuries, we can't force teams to spliut their focus off of Thomas and Tarasenko. We need guys to step up in the bottom 6 to create breathing room for the top 6.

 

[Stealth JD]

The more i see of the up-and-coming teams like Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit & New Jersey, the more I worry what the Blues are going to look like in 2-3 more years. I like Snuggy in the prospect pool...beyond that I see a whole lot of question marks. Even if a couple of more young guys step up and step in, Armstrong is going to have a whole lot of work to do to keep this club from morphing into the Islanders. As the 30-something leadership either walks as UFA or ages out of prime-productivity it's going to be very difficult to avoid a rebuild like those young teams are going through now.

Free agency is designed to make teams overpay for talent or shop in the discount aisle. Acquiring core-players via trade requires that you be pretty damn sure (and right more than wrong) that what you're getting is worth more than what you're giving up. When trying to fill an NHL roster in a salary capped world, the teams that are successful are the ones that have a surplus of value. I trust Army's ability to find value in trades, but the most valuable pieces in the NHL are young, cheap, entry-level performers of whom the Blues appear to have precious few in the system. Kyrou and Thomas are nice, and Buchy should have another few good years before he starts slowing...but that core seems undermanned compared to what a lot of other teams having coming.

I'm not worried about this year's club...they should still be in the battle for a wild card spot with a relatively 'average' injury situation and competent goaltending (which they appear to be getting)...but they could get old in a hurry. And if injury or goaltending become problems as the season progresses, this is as good a year as any to settle for a high draft pick and perhaps try to acquire another one or two in an attempt to make yourself that much stronger in 2-3 years; a period that certainly appears to be in need of a talent infusion.

 

[Thallis]

Problem isn’t the bottom 6, it’s the top 6. Need Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, tank to step up.

Problems in the bottom 6 are informing problems in the top 6. Because our 3rd line is so bad, we have to choose between putting Tarasenko or Kyrou with ROR. Neither of them are fits for that line which needs cyclers down low, but if we put them on the 3rd they're being asked to carry 4th liners from the wing position. Kyrou fits best with Buch and Thomas because they create quick strike offense off the rush together. Kyrou struggles when he's asked to win battles down low because it neutralizes his speed advantage. Tarasenko plays best with a wizard like Thomas to set him up and we don't want to put him on a shut down line with ROR.

 

[PocketNines]

It's not built on pillars of play. Going forward it is built on two pillars of contracts but not play.

Instead it's built as a carefully balanced house of cards that falls apart when the single most foreseeable thing in hockey happens, the team has a couple players injured.

This team is built to give contenders a test when it is 100% healthy and it is built to give Arizona a test when not.

This week has made Dom look smart.

 

[Frenzy31]

It's not built on pillars of play. Going forward it is built on two pillars of contracts but not play.

Instead it's built as a carefully balanced house of cards that falls apart when the single most foreseeable thing in hockey happens, the team has a couple players injured.

This team is built to give contenders a test when it is 100% healthy and it is built to give Arizona a test when not.

This week has made Dom look smart.

This can be said of any team in the NHL. Last year, in December our AHL players really stepped up. Any team that loses 2 top 6 forwards is going to be hurting.