Series Talk: Around the NHL - 2018 Stanley Cup Playoffs - Second Round

[Tawnos]

We're still looking at forward and ignoring that defense has been the problem since 2005.

The Jagr teams missed out on a Cup/SCF because they didn't have a legit top pairing defensemen.

In 2012, we acquired two by ****ing accident and now they're both off the team.

The Jagr teams missed out on playoff success because those teams weren’t particularly good, forwards AND defensemen. That was true after Jagr was gone, but before the kids acquired in the rebuild really started to take hold of the team too.

The teams that contended in the 4 year window from 2012-2015 did so based on elite goaltending, high end defense, and superior forward depth. In equal measures. Plus a mental toughness that I think too often gets overlooked.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

And if you want to talk about a successful era of Rangers hockey, you're looking for 08-13, when we slowly but steadily built what should have been a long-term contender.

We spent most of 12-16 (often considered a golden age) misidentifying and tearing down everything that team did well.

Oh right, the '13 team. Um, remind me: who were the multiple clear, top of the NHL, perennial all-star front line scoring options (which BTW I agree we need) on that team or its precedents?

And presuming you agree that they weren't there, how exactly were they to acquire them?

MH, I love you as a poster, man, but you have this habit of always wanting the Rangers to have done it the right way in the past, but having no patience for it now.

As for the Andersson pick, I was pissed too – but not because they took him, but because none of the top 6 had slipped through to us. None of Suzuki, Mittelstadt, et. al. stood out as head and shoulders above the others at that point. None. There was a 6-player top tier, they drafted 7th, and rather than taking the first or second consensus pick in the next tier, they took one more like 6th or 7th, but still in the same tier. It's as simple as that.

And hey – so far, Andersson's panned out well! He was a 1st round pick who got a decent run in the NHL in his draft year, and just got named to his national team, for crying out loud. Let's give the kid a chance before we brand him a career 3rd liner.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Oh right, the '13 team. Um, remind me: who were the multiple clear, top of the NHL, perennial all-star front line scoring options (which BTW I agree we need) on that team or its precedents?

And presuming you agree that they weren't there, how exactly were they to acquire them?

MH, I love you as a poster, man, but you have this habit of always wanting the Rangers to have done it the right way in the past, but having no patience for it now.

As for the Andersson pick, I was pissed too – but not because they took him, but because none of the top 6 had slipped through to us. None of Suzuki, Mittelstadt, et. al. stood out as head and shoulders above the others at that point. None. There was a 6-player top tier, they drafted 7th, and rather than taking the first or second consensus pick in the next tier, they took one more like 6th or 7th, but still in the same tier. It's as simple as that.

And hey – so far, Andersson's panned out well! He was a 1st round pick who got a decent run in the NHL in his draft year, and just got named to his national team, for crying out loud. Let's give the kid a chance before we brand him a career 3rd liner.

Good post, old man.

 

[Machinehead]

Oh right, the '13 team. Um, remind me: who were the multiple clear, top of the NHL, perennial all-star front line scoring options (which BTW I agree we need) on that team or its precedents?

And presuming you agree that they weren't there, how exactly were they to acquire them?

MH, I love you as a poster, man, but you have this habit of always wanting the Rangers to have done it the right way in the past, but having no patience for it now.

As for the Andersson pick, I was pissed too – but not because they took him, but because none of the top 6 had slipped through to us. None of Suzuki, Mittelstadt, et. al. stood out as head and shoulders above the others at that point. None. There was a 6-player top tier, they drafted 7th, and rather than taking the first or second consensus pick in the next tier, they took one more like 6th or 7th, but still in the same tier. It's as simple as that.

And hey – so far, Andersson's panned out well! He was a 1st round pick who got a decent run in the NHL in his draft year, and just got named to his national team, for crying out loud. Let's give the kid a chance before we brand him a career 3rd liner.

We're still talking about high-end forward options.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever been the problem

Neglect/sabotage your defense, blame the forwards, get more forwards, repeat.

That's been Rangers hockey for decades.

Park, Zubov, Leetch, Stralman, McDonagh...Rangers got rid of all of them and then immediately blamed toughness/scoring for the impending demise.

 

[Tawnos]

Frankly, the thing that ultimately doomed the Rangers to failure to win a Cup was Jagr’s sojourn to Siberia during the 05 lockout, which rejuvenated him. Well, and that lockout itself.

Because the plan coming out of the 03-04 season was for the team to be just completely awful for a few years. Bad enough to draft a Crosby or a Kane somewhere in there.

 

[Machinehead]

Frankly, the thing that ultimately doomed the Rangers to failure to win a Cup was Jagr’s sojourn to Siberia during the 05 lockout, which rejuvenated him. Well, and that lockout itself.

Because the plan coming out of the 03-04 season was for the team to be just completely awful for a few years. Bad enough to draft a Crosby or a Kane somewhere in there.

Michal Rozsival is still their #1 defenseman if they draft Crosby or Kane.

 

[trilobyte]

Hyper-hockey game

 

[Machinehead]

Look at this game we're watching. Both teams have like three guys who would be our best defenseman since Leetch (except maybe McDonagh)

 

[Tawnos]

We're still talking about high-end forward options.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever been the problem

Neglect/sabotage your defense, blame the forwards, get more forwards, repeat.

That's been Rangers hockey for decades.

Park, Zubov, Leetch, Stralman, McDonagh...Rangers got rid of all of them and then immediately blamed toughness/scoring for the impending demise.

Uh. That’s not even remotely accurate. Park was dealt away from a Rangers team that had already fallen apart. Leetch was dealt away from a team that had already fallen apart. McDonagh was dealt from a team that had already fallen apart.

The Zubov trade was one of the worst ones in Rangers history, but scoring was never the problem with the teams they had after he left. Toughness, or lack thereof, certainly played a role in why they made that trade.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

We're still talking about high-end forward options.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever been the problem

Neglect/sabotage your defense, blame the forwards, get more forwards, repeat.

That's been Rangers hockey for decades.

Park, Zubov, Leetch, Stralman, McDonagh...Rangers got rid of all of them and then immediately blamed toughness/scoring for the impending demise.

Just so we're clear, you're saying you don't think a team needs one (preferably more than one) top-flight offensive forward talents in their prime to win the cup?

And to be clear, they have NEVER, EVER had "more" than, much less "a" top flight forward after Messier's decline, but for Jagr's bizarre unprecedented lightning in a bottle on a team that, but for Hank, was otherwise pretty much shit.

As you point out, the team has HAD Leetch (for years, and years, and YEARS after Messier was on the decline), McDonagh (through his prime, and with Hank behind him!); what they HAVEN'T had is 1-3 legit stud forwards.

 

[Tawnos]

Michal Rozsival is still their #1 defenseman if they draft Crosby or Kane.

Well, you don’t know that because finishing that poorly means all their other draft picks change too.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Uh. That’s not even remotely accurate. Park was dealt away from a Rangers team that had already fallen apart. Leetch was dealt away from a team that had already fallen apart. McDonagh was dealt from a team that had already fallen apart.

The Zubov trade was one of the worst ones in Rangers history, but scoring was never the problem with the teams they had after he left. Toughness, or lack thereof, certainly played a role in why they made that trade.

Yep. And there are some lauded Rangers legends who deserve a lot of blame for that move, and the reasoning behind it...

 

[Mac n Gs]

Look at this game we're watching. Both teams have like three guys who would be our best defenseman since Leetch (except maybe McDonagh)

Devil's advocate: they all have at least two or three forwards that blow the tires off of anyone we have on our roster. Pens won the Cup last year being carried by forwards and a makeshift defense. Sometimes, great forwards can make up for a weak defensive core. Hell, Toronto just took Boston to 7 and their defense is below average.

 

[NYR94]

Yep. And there are some lauded Rangers legends who deserve a lot of blame for that move, and the reasoning behind it...

Ugh, don't remind me. Zubov trade still hurts.

 

[Machinehead]

Uh. That’s not even remotely accurate. Park was dealt away from a Rangers team that had already fallen apart. Leetch was dealt away from a team that had already fallen apart. McDonagh was dealt from a team that had already fallen apart.

The Zubov trade was one of the worst ones in Rangers history, but scoring was never the problem with the teams they had after he left. Toughness, or lack thereof, certainly played a role in why they made that trade.

I guarantee you this team is back in the playoffs in 3 years, come close in 5 years, and fall short because Skjei-Pionk is their top pair.

Bookmark it.

Just so we're clear, you're saying you don't think a team needs one (preferably more than one) top-flight offensive forward talents in their prime to win the cup?

And to be clear, they have NEVER, EVER had "more" much less "a" top flight forward after Messier's decline, but for Jagr's bizarre unprecedented lightning in a bottle on a team that, but for Hank, was otherwise pretty much ****.

As you point out, the team has HAD Leetch (for years, and years, and YEARS after Messier was on the decline), McDonagh (through his prime, and with Hank behind him!); what they HAVEN'T had is 1-3 legit stud forwards.

Why isn't our frankly, embarrassing lack of depth on defense at least considered an equivalent problem?

Those McDonagh teams that fell short routinely scored 3+ goals.

They lost to the Kings because they blew like nine leads. And they did so with a geneational goaltender.

Shockingly, and I know this doesn't apply to you, that generational goaltender has gotten more blame than this team's defense.

We just posted the worse expected goals against (goaltending independent) for an NHL team in YEARS and I haven't heard a word -not a shred, not a f***ing morsel- from Gorton on fixing this defense.

Instead, I've heard leadership and character, with elite forwards being a very distant second.

 

[Tawnos]

Yep. And there are some lauded Rangers legends who deserve a lot of blame for that move, and the reasoning behind it...

People always just decide to ignore the context of that trade too, which was a team that had just gotten totally abused by a Flyers team that looked like they were going to define the next decade of NHL hockey.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I guarantee you this team is back in the playoffs in 3 years, come close in 5 years, and fall short because Skjei-Pionk is their top pair.

Bookmark it.


Why isn't our frankly, embarrassing lack of depth on defense at least considered an equivalent problem?

Those McDonagh teams that fell short routinely scored 3+ goals.

They lose to the Kings because they blew like nine leads. And they did so with a geneational goaltender.

Shockingly, and I know this doesn't apply to you, that generational goaltender has gotten more blame than this team's defense.

We just posted the worse expected goals against (goaltending independent) for an NHL team in YEARS and I haven't heard a word -not a shred, not a ****ing morsel- from Gorton on fixing this defense.

Instead, I've heard leadership and character, with elite forwards being a very distant second.

Please show me the outstanding defensive, but strictly mediocre offensive teams that have won the cup since the Devils in the trap era. Because I can show you TONS of the reverse...

 

[Tawnos]

I guarantee you this team is back in the playoffs in 3 years, come close in 5 years, and fall short because Skjei-Pionk is their top pair.

Bookmark it.


Why isn't our frankly, embarrassing lack of depth on defense at least considered an equivalent problem?

Those McDonagh teams that fell short routinely scored 3+ goals.

They lose to the Kings because they blew like nine leads. And they did so with a geneational goaltender.

Shockingly, and I know this doesn't apply to you, that generational goaltender has gotten more blame than this team's defense.

We just posted the worse expected goals against (goaltending independent) for an NHL team in YEARS and I haven't heard a word -not a shred, not a ****ing morsel- from Gorton on fixing this defense.

Instead, I've heard leadership and character, with elite forwards being a very distant second.

Are you serious? People are constantly talking about defense.

Unless you mean coming from the GM, even though that same GM has acquired defensive prospects in the last 4 major trades he’s made.

 

[Machinehead]

Please show me the outstanding defensive, but strictly mediocre offensive teams that have won the cup since the Devils in the trap era. Because I can show you TONS of the reverse...

Better yet, why are we arguing about offense vs defense when the Rangers themselves say leadership is the problem?

I would love some elite offensive forwards. I think it would help us a lot.

But it was Andersson last year, it'll be Farabee/Tkachuk this year, they'll be 55 point players, and we'll have Neal Pionk making 6.5 million a year to be a 44% possession player.

But we'll be fiery and competitive!

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

People always just decide to ignore the context of that trade too, which was a team that had just gotten totally abused by a Flyers team that looked like they were going to define the next decade of NHL hockey.

Yeah, but unfortunately, that context was seen by said individuals in light of their own self-obsessed "my toughness is what makes me great" mindset. Talent always wins out in the end. I saw the move for the mistake it was at the time, and so did many others.

 

[Machinehead]

Are you serious? People are constantly talking about defense.

Unless you mean coming from the GM, even though that same GM has acquired defensive prospects in the last 4 major trades he’s made.

I wanna hear from our GM "our defense sucked and it's not going to suck anymore" or something to that effect. Not "muh character lol leADERSHIP"

 

[Tawnos]

Better yet, why are we arguing about offense vs defense when the Rangers themselves say leadership is the problem?

I would love some elite offensive forwards. I think it would help us a lot.

But it was Andersson last year, it'll be Farabee/Tkachuk this year, they'll be 55 point players, and we'll have Neal Pionk making 6.5 million a year to be a 44% possession player.

But we'll be fiery and competitive!

I wanna hear from our GM "our defense sucked and it's not going to suck anymore" or something to that effect. Not "muh character lol leADERSHIP"

blather | Definition of blather in English by Oxford Dictionaries

 

[FireGerardGallant]

I guarantee you this team is back in the playoffs in 3 years, come close in 5 years, and fall short because Skjei-Pionk is their top pair.

Bookmark it.

I dont think youll have to worry about this too much considering more than likely the bpa for us will be a dman. Sure Wahlstrom might fall to us or the team might fall in love Kotakniemi but I'd say its a decent bet they get a dman with their first pick

 

[Fvital92]

Better yet, why are we arguing about offense vs defense when the Rangers themselves say leadership is the problem?

I would love some elite offensive forwards. I think it would help us a lot.

But it was Andersson last year, it'll be Farabee/Tkachuk this year, they'll be 55 point players, and we'll have Neal Pionk making 6.5 million a year to be a 44% possession player.

But we'll be fiery and competitive!

Chill out. I would bet that we draft Bouchard, Dobson, Hughes or Boqvist before Farabee if we stay put at 9. This team acquired Lidngren, Hajek, TDA as defensive prospects in trades, signed Shattenkirk. It's not like Gorton is saying "f*** defensemen".

 

[Machinehead]

I dont think youll have to worry about this too much considering more than likely the bpa for us will be a dman. Sure Wahlstrom might fall to us or the team might fall in love Kotakniemi but I'd say its a decent bet they get a dman with their first pick

Everything I've ever known about the Rangers tells me they reach for Farabee. Hope I'm wrong.