Around the NHL — Episode XLXVII

[StutzlingAway]

Korpisalo is 8/10 so far..

 

[Tuna99]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1844030063152431480

Still say Coffey is better than Makar. It’s unbelievable to think Coffey went from playing with Gretzky straight to Lemieux

A proven commodity who DIDN'T WANT TO PLAY HERE. As Butchy pointed out Dorion tried to gauge his interest in discussing an extension in Ottawa and the Hawks declined to let him speak to DeBrincat's agent, which is all he should have needed to know.

You can't overlook that fact considering he was 2 years away from attaining UFA status and had a 9M QO in 23/24.

Dach was unproven but was 20 years old and was a recent 3rd overall pick that obviously had a lot of talent and upside. If the scouting staff didn't like the names available at 7 and Dorion was intent on trading the pick to speed up the rebuild, trading it for Dach would have been a far smarter way to do it as a Turris-esque buy-low move adding a talented former 3rd overall pick that was struggling.

He traded for DeBrincat because he thought it provided the best chance to push the team to the playoffs early, long-term success be damned. He didn't care about the eventual implications, as he wanted to be able to say he rebuilt the Sens into a playoff team to try to save his own job. It failed spectacularly and defending it is laughable at this point.

both are bad decisions, Dach is soft and always injured and DBC was a cat and cats can be annoying.

 

[Beech]

OHH Look.. 4 to 6 games in and we see what we have seen the last 5-7 years. Top is top, bottom is bottom. NOTHING EVER CHANGES.

Look at the Atlantic!!!! How many seasons have ended more or less with these 4 teams at the bottom.

Ground Hog season(s)

 

[BondraTime]

Wonder if we could make a play for Kekalainen to step in as GM, and bring his brother in from Nashville to head up Europe for our scouting staff and become our head amateur scout. He's been in Nashville doing fantastic for decades, both of his brothers have been among the best European scouts in the league over the past 25 years. ]

7 years as our European Scout/DOPP and Jarmo/Sens grabbed Hossa, Salo, Havlat, Dackell, Arvedsson, Rachunek, Volchenkov, Schubert. Highest pick was 12th. That's 7 full time cup contending players out of Europe in 7 years. Since he left, the only hits out of Europe (~20 years) are Silfverberg, Lehner, EK, Mika (6th), Stu (3rd), Mez and kind of Regin. Stu is the only guy in the past 13 years and was a gimme

Staios should delegate the GM position, and go back full time to the POHO role. Adding Jarmo and Janne would be great for the front office.

 

[Dan Patrick]

Wonder if we could make a play for Kekalainen to step in as GM, and bring his brother in from Nashville to head up Europe for our scouting staff and become our head amateur scout. He's been in Nashville doing fantastic for decades, both of his brothers have been among the best European scouts in the league over the past 25 years. ]

7 years as our European Scout/DOPP and Jarmo/Sens grabbed Hossa, Salo, Havlat, Dackell, Arvedsson, Rachunek, Volchenkov, Schubert. Highest pick was 12th. That's 7 full time cup contending players out of Europe in 7 years. Since he left, the only hits out of Europe (~20 years) are Silfverberg, Lehner, EK, Mika (6th), Stu (3rd), Mez and kind of Regin. Stu is the only guy in the past 13 years and was a gimme

Staios should delegate the GM position, and go back full time to the POHO role. Adding Jarmo and Janne would be great for the front office.

I don’t know how you look at what Columbus built over Jarmo’s tenure and get excited.

Pass

 

[BondraTime]

I don’t know how you look at what Columbus built over Jarmo’s tenure and get excited.

Pass

Pretty easy to look at his career and get excited about brining him in IMO

 

[Dan Patrick]

Pretty easy to look at his career and get excited about brining him in IMO

Over an 11 year term his team lost in the first round 4 times made the second round once and hasn’t been to the playoffs in almost half a decade.

Are you seeing something different than I am?

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Still say Coffey is better than Makar. It’s unbelievable to think Coffey went from playing with Gretzky straight to Lemieux


both are bad decisions, Dach is soft and always injured and DBC was a cat and cats can be annoying.

As a Karlsson-truther, I don't like points per game as a metric to judge offensive defensemen historically. The game changes so much. Things are even completely different now than they were when Karlsson was on our team.

I think that it is better to look at the context of the points. An extreme example is that in 14-15 when Jamie Benn won the Art Ross, it only took 87 points to lead the league in scoring. Last year, 87 points would have put Benn 21st in the league in scoring. Did everyone suck at scoring 10 years ago? No, it was a different game.

Karlsson is second all time in terms of greatest producer as a D. He finished first in assists, top 5 in points, etc, all while on a team with very few weapons. Not to mention, we weren't a basement team like the big season he had in San Jose, where winning didn't matter. While he had more freedom to play as he wanted, his production wasn't inflated by being on a really bad team. It's probably the opposite that it was kept down by having limited weapons to work with.

In terms of production, I'd argue Karlsson's 2016 season was leagues ahead of his 101 point season.

I don't think in terms of Karlsson's entire body of work that he is the second greatest offensive producing defenseman of all time, but in his prime seasons he was, nobody else has come close to those. Karlsson roughly matched (and in some ways outdid) what Coffey did playing with Gretzky and Lemieux/Jagr while Karlsson played with Kyle Turris and Zibanejad/Brassard.

 

[BondraTime]

Over an 11 year term his team lost in the first round 4 times made the second round once and hasn’t been to the playoffs in almost half a decade.

Are you seeing something different than I am?

Using some context that I think should apply rather than looking at their records. He's dealing with the Sens of the US. Same reason I think Bill Armstrong has been fantastic and would be a huge add, even though the Yotes are 0/4 with regards to the playoffs while he was there.

He took over a team that had been to the playoffs 1 time in the previous 11 years, brought them to the playoffs in 4 of his 6 first seasons. Wheels fall off when guys head to UFA, losing a guy like Panarin for nothing, dealing with the Dubois headache (and then Laine headache), etc.

Even in their downyears the past few, their drafts have added some fantastic players. Chinikov, Fantilli, Lindstrom, Sillinger, Brindley, Jiricek, Matechyk, etc. He has made moves when they are looking to compete, and sold for good value when they aren't a good team.

Made some great trades that never worked out because the team isn't a hot spot. Got Panarin for a song, he wanted to get to UFA. Got Seth Jones for Johanson, got a haul for a very expensive Jones.

He'd be a very nice add to a team in the Sens position with a team full of signed guys, with moves needed to be made to shore up the team

 

[Dan Patrick]

Using some context that I think should apply rather than looking at their records. He's dealing with the Sens of US. Same reason I think Bill Armstrong has been fantastic and would be a huge add, even though the Yotes are 0/4 with regards to the playoffs while he was there.

He took over a team that had been to the playoffs 1 time in the previous 11 years, brought them to the playoffs in 4 of his 6 first seasons. Wheels fall off when guys head to UFA, losing a guy like Panarin for nothing, dealing with the Dubois headache (and then Laine headache), etc.

Even in their downyears the past few, their drafts have added some fantastic players. Chinikov, Fantilli, Lindstrom, Sillinger, Brindley, Jiricek, Matechyk, etc. He has made moves when they are looking to compete, and sold for good value when they aren't a good team.

Made some great trades that never worked out because the team isn't a hot spot. Got Panarin for a song, he wanted to get to UFA. Got Seth Jones for Johanson, got a haul for a very expensive Jones.

He'd be a very nice add to a team in the Sens position with a team full of signed guys, with moves needed to be made to shore up the team

While I appreciate the write-up a counterpoint is obviously that he was able to bring in fantastic players because he has had so many high picks. When you look past the 1st round he has a pretty dreadful record of drafting players with what looks like no impact players taken outside the 1st round in nearly his entire tenure with Columbus.

You could debate in circles whether it was due to player evaluation or simply luck that he got out of Seth Jones and PLD but a serious fact remains, he's had a number of high profile and impact players simply refuse to sign long-term with the team or request a trade and he needs to accept some fault for that. He is in charge of building the culture and signing players and letting go of a #1 goalie and #1 wing for nothing and with no solid plan to replace them is brutal.

Anyway, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

As a Karlsson-truther, I don't like points per game as a metric to judge offensive defensemen historically. The game changes so much. Things are even completely different now than they were when Karlsson was on our team.

I think that it is better to look at the context of the points. An extreme example is that in 14-15 when Jamie Benn won the Art Ross, it only took 87 points to lead the league in scoring. Last year, 87 points would have put Benn 21st in the league in scoring. Did everyone suck at scoring 10 years ago? No, it was a different game.

Karlsson is second all time in terms of greatest producer as a D. He finished first in assists, top 5 in points, etc, all while on a team with very few weapons. Not to mention, we weren't a basement team like the big season he had in San Jose, where winning didn't matter. While he had more freedom to play as he wanted, his production wasn't inflated by being on a really bad team. It's probably the opposite that it was kept down by having limited weapons to work with.

In terms of production, I'd argue Karlsson's 2016 season was leagues ahead of his 101 point season.

I don't think in terms of Karlsson's entire body of work that he is the second greatest offensive producing defenseman of all time, but in his prime seasons he was, nobody else has come close to those. Karlsson roughly matched (and in some ways outdid) what Coffey did playing with Gretzky and Lemieux/Jagr while Karlsson played with Kyle Turris and Zibanejad/Brassard.

I think it is often overlooked how sub par those teams Karlsson played on were. The Melnyk and budget issues had started to rear their head early on.

 

[BondraTime]

While I appreciate the write-up a counterpoint is obviously that he was able to bring in fantastic players because he has had so many high picks. When you look past the 1st round he has a pretty dreadful record of drafting players with what looks like no impact players taken outside the 1st round in nearly his entire tenure with Columbus.

You could debate in circles whether it was due to player evaluation or simply luck that he got out of Seth Jones and PLD but a serious fact remains, he's had a number of high profile and impact players simply refuse to sign long-term with the team or request a trade and he needs to accept some fault for that. He is in charge of building the culture and signing players and letting go of a #1 goalie and #1 wing for nothing and with no solid plan to replace them is brutal.

Anyway, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I mean, you can't get rid of your best player and #1 goalie when you are in the playoffs, that would make absolutely no sense. And 4 of those guys were taken outside the top 10 picks. Chinakhov (especially considering he wasn't ranked), Brindley and Matechyk is just very good scouting.

Agreed

 

[JD1]

As a Karlsson-truther, I don't like points per game as a metric to judge offensive defensemen historically. The game changes so much. Things are even completely different now than they were when Karlsson was on our team.

I think that it is better to look at the context of the points. An extreme example is that in 14-15 when Jamie Benn won the Art Ross, it only took 87 points to lead the league in scoring. Last year, 87 points would have put Benn 21st in the league in scoring. Did everyone suck at scoring 10 years ago? No, it was a different game.

Karlsson is second all time in terms of greatest producer as a D. He finished first in assists, top 5 in points, etc, all while on a team with very few weapons. Not to mention, we weren't a basement team like the big season he had in San Jose, where winning didn't matter. While he had more freedom to play as he wanted, his production wasn't inflated by being on a really bad team. It's probably the opposite that it was kept down by having limited weapons to work with.

In terms of production, I'd argue Karlsson's 2016 season was leagues ahead of his 101 point season.

I don't think in terms of Karlsson's entire body of work that he is the second greatest offensive producing defenseman of all time, but in his prime seasons he was, nobody else has come close to those. Karlsson roughly matched (and in some ways outdid) what Coffey did playing with Gretzky and Lemieux/Jagr while Karlsson played with Kyle Turris and Zibanejad/Brassard.

I think Karlsson is the best O defenseman I've seen going back to Orr

 

[Icelevel]

I didn’t realize St Louis signed Joseph’s brother too.
Free Joseph brothers. And got a 3rd rnd pick too. Not bad. If you’re into Joseph brothers that is.

 

[Tuna99]

As a Karlsson-truther, I don't like points per game as a metric to judge offensive defensemen historically. The game changes so much. Things are even completely different now than they were when Karlsson was on our team.

I think that it is better to look at the context of the points. An extreme example is that in 14-15 when Jamie Benn won the Art Ross, it only took 87 points to lead the league in scoring. Last year, 87 points would have put Benn 21st in the league in scoring. Did everyone suck at scoring 10 years ago? No, it was a different game.

Karlsson is second all time in terms of greatest producer as a D. He finished first in assists, top 5 in points, etc, all while on a team with very few weapons. Not to mention, we weren't a basement team like the big season he had in San Jose, where winning didn't matter. While he had more freedom to play as he wanted, his production wasn't inflated by being on a really bad team. It's probably the opposite that it was kept down by having limited weapons to work with.

In terms of production, I'd argue Karlsson's 2016 season was leagues ahead of his 101 point season.

I don't think in terms of Karlsson's entire body of work that he is the second greatest offensive producing defenseman of all time, but in his prime seasons he was, nobody else has come close to those. Karlsson roughly matched (and in some ways outdid) what Coffey did playing with Gretzky and Lemieux/Jagr while Karlsson played with Kyle Turris and Zibanejad/Brassard.

Agree, what Karlsson did with Turris as his #1 Cebter is amazing. Coffey was never the best player in the league like EK was for the 2 prime season in Ottawa, but overall, Coffey was the better player. Hard to argue when he won so many Cups.

If you out EK on those Oilers teams he’d be the King of Sweden right now.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I didn’t realize St Louis signed Joseph’s brother too.
Free Joseph brothers. And got a 3rd rnd pick too. Not bad. If you’re into Joseph brothers that is.

Slow start for Mathieu. 1 point in 5 games and is averaging his lowest toi since 2020-21.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Slow start for Mathieu. 1 point in 5 games and is averaging his lowest toi since 2020-21.

Blues are getting his mind right

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Blues are getting his mind right

Call it a work in progress. I guess in fairness, if I'm going to point out Joseph's slow start and low ice time, Amadio and Perron have 0 in 4 with much more ice time.

 

[Xspyrit]

Gustavsson for Talbot made sense at the time. Outside of his first season, he struggled in the NHL for us. He was on 1-way money, and we were still a budget team. Dorion's job also wasn't to be concerned about the long-term health of the roster. It was to paint over a turd to trick people into going to games and spruce the team up for the sale. At least in the short term, he did that job. People on Reddit were making T-shirts with his face on it. So the hype was there until the team failed to win games.

It's a shame that we had both Daccord and Gustavsson and lost them both.

IMO it never made any sense, trading a 24 y/o with good potential for a 35 y/o UFA at the end of the year while you are REBUILDING. You are never done rebuilding until you start making the playoffs regularly, it seems like Dorion never really understood that and squandered so many assets because of it.

Like most of my opinions, my opinion on Gustavsson wasn't just a brief one, I saw him play live at the 2018 rookie tournament and said here that I preferred Kevin Mandolese. It took a long time before I changed my mind on him but I eventually did a 180° in 2020-21 where he looked like he finally figured out pro NA hockey, he looked very good in both the AHL and NHL that season. Yes his NHL stats were not as good the following season but I personally take anything goalies did in Ottawa during our rebuild with a huge GRAIN OF SALT. DJ Dorion hockey was not easy on goalies, completely left out to dry most of the time

Agree, what Karlsson did with Turris as his #1 Cebter is amazing. Coffey was never the best player in the league like EK was for the 2 prime season in Ottawa, but overall, Coffey was the better player. Hard to argue when he won so many Cups.

If you out EK on those Oilers teams he’d be the King of Sweden right now.

Wait, this is the argument for Coffey being better than Karlsson?

Call it a work in progress. I guess in fairness, if I'm going to point out Joseph's slow start and low ice time, Amadio and Perron have 0 in 4 with much more ice time.

Joseph was a known quantity for us, I'd rather have him over Amadio and/or Perron, plus the pick and the cap space (in Perron's case). It better be an off-ice decision than a on-ice decision. If not, it's not looking like our pro scouting is any better than before.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Joseph was a known quantity for us, I'd rather have him over Amadio and/or Perron, plus the pick and the cap space (in Perron's case). It better be an off-ice decision than a on-ice decision. If not, it's not looking like our pro scouting is any better than before.

Giving up the pick was lame, but personally I prefer both over Joseph if we're simply comparing the players themselves and ignoring other factors.

 

[Xspyrit]

Giving up the pick was lame, but personally I prefer both over Joseph if we're simply comparing the players themselves and ignoring other factors.

As of what they are now? Perron turns 37 y/o in May, he's basically 10 years older. Joseph outscored Perron at ES last season and is better defensively plus is a PK specialist (something we lack now). I would easily take the pick, Joseph and the 1 M$ cap space over Perron

Amadio is older than Joseph and never scored more than 27 pts in the NHL, Joseph has 30 and 35 pts seasons. Amadio also didn't PK in Vegas and as far as I know, not as good defensively. I'm not saying Amadio will be useless, he has different qualities but we're going to miss Joseph speed, forechecking ability and feistiness. It's a bit of a lateral move in a sense but after dilapidating so many draft picks over Dorion's tenure, I'd much rather have the 3rd round pick

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

As of what they are now? Perron turns 37 y/o in May, he's basically 10 years older. Joseph outscored Perron at ES last season and is better defensively plus is a PK specialist (something we lack now). I would easily take the pick, Joseph and the 1 M$ cap space over Perron

Amadio is older than Joseph and never scored more than 27 pts in the NHL, Joseph has 30 and 35 pts seasons. Amadio also didn't PK in Vegas and as far as I know, not as good defensively. I'm not saying Amadio will be useless, he has different qualities but we're going to miss Joseph speed, forechecking ability and feistiness. It's a bit of a lateral move in a sense but after dilapidating so many draft picks over Dorion's tenure, I'd much rather have the 3rd round pick

Yes, I absolutely would. SS did too so it's not like that's some crazy take either. I don't really care about the age factor for spare part players in general since none would be significant parts of the future. I think both are smarter players and bring more of the safe 200 foot play this team needs. I think Joseph is one of those really fast players that gets your attention, but still a relatively spare part that struggles to put the puck in the net himself. He had some hot streaks in Ottawa and does produce some offence but it's pretty comparable overall and his goal scoring is hovering pretty low at 11 goals per 82 the last 3 seasons for 3 mil, compared to Amadio at 18+. I've said many times this summer that I prefer the idea of a guy that potentially scores more himself being added to the 3rd line, over a guy with a ton of speed but lacks finish. I also agree with SS that this team sorely needed some veteran influence and significant change in general, so happy with that element on both guys and how the roster came together. Could end up wrong but that's my 2 cents. If Joseph weren't fast, nobody would give a shit and the only part of it all that I didn't really like was the requirement of a pick to move Joseph.

 

[NyQuil]

Nashville is terrible.

Stamkos was a brutal pickup for that team.

 

[NyQuil]

Nashville is terrible.

Stamkos was a brutal pickup for that team.

 

[Boud]

You can see the Preds have 0 confidence.