Around the NHL — Episode XLXVII

[Hale The Villain]

Dach might be taking the next step

Still blows my mind our size queen management group decided to trade for 5'7 DeBrincat who was a UFA in 2 years instead of 6'4 Dach who was an RFA and under the team's control for many years.

That would have "accelerated the rebuild". What Dorion tried to do, which he won't admit, was take dumb risks in an attempt to push the team to the playoffs early so he could save his own skin.

 

[UglyPuckling]

Still blows my mind our size queen management group decided to trade for 5'7 DeBrincat who was a UFA in 2 years instead of 6'4 Dach who was an RFA and under the team's control for many years.

That would have "accelerated the rebuild". What Dorion tried to do, which he won't admit, was take dumb risks in an attempt to push the team to the playoffs early so he could save his own skin.

That’s generous perhaps. Debrincat had one year or term and then a Qualifying Offer for $9 m for the 2nd year which we couldn’t afford with our cap situation (iirc).

Otherwise, yes I agree with your general idea that it was a bad move & strategy for a rebuilding Senators and an attempt to save his GM position.

 

[Hale The Villain]

That’s generous perhaps. Debrincat had one year or term and then a Qualifying Offer for $9 m for the 2nd year which we couldn’t afford with our cap situation (iirc).

Otherwise, yes I agree with your general idea that it was a bad move & strategy for a rebuilding Senators and an attempt to save his GM position.

A qualifying offer which took him right to UFA status, meaning he could walk in 2 years.

And given he could walk in 2 years by taking his QO he effectively got to choose his destination in summer 2023 after only a single season with the team.

 

[UglyPuckling]

A qualifying offer which took him right to UFA status, meaning he could walk in 2 years.

And given he could walk in 2 years by taking his QO he effectively got to choose his destination in summer 2023 after only a single season with the team.

Yes, I agree with that & those details. I was just adding a little detail about that 2nd year. I don’t think that 2nd year was tenable given our circumstances.

 

[bicboi64]

Still blows my mind our size queen management group decided to trade for 5'7 DeBrincat who was a UFA in 2 years instead of 6'4 Dach who was an RFA and under the team's control for many years.

That would have "accelerated the rebuild". What Dorion tried to do, which he won't admit, was take dumb risks in an attempt to push the team to the playoffs early so he could save his own skin.

While I agree with the general logic of trading for an RFA who was drafted really high, the move would only marginally be better considering how unproven Dach was at the time and wouldn't really fit a specific team need (aside from just generally adding cost controlled talent).

I could've lived with getting rid of a top 10 draft pick even if we had a positional need filled.

 

[Hale The Villain]

While I agree with the general logic of trading for an RFA who was drafted really high, the move would only marginally be better considering how unproven Dach was at the time and wouldn't really fit a specific team need (aside from just generally adding cost controlled talent).

I could've lived with getting rid of a top 10 draft pick even if we had a positional need filled.

Yeah I wouldn't necessarily been thrilled with trading the 7th OVR pick for Dach, as I have never been a huge fan, but adding a 20YR old former 3rd OVR pick to the roster with team control for many years would have made infinitely more sense as a way of "accelerating the rebuild" than trading the pick for DeBrincat.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Yeah I wouldn't necessarily been thrilled with trading the 7th OVR pick for Dach, as I have never been a huge fan, but adding a 20YR old former 3rd OVR pick to the roster with team control for many years would have made infinitely more sense as a way of "accelerating the rebuild" than trading the pick for DeBrincat.

You know you've lost the plot when you think trading the 7OA for a guy who had, at the time, less than 20 career goals is a better theoretical trade than trading the same pick for a multi 40G scorer.

 

[bicboi64]

You know you've lost the plot when you think trading the 7OA for a guy who had, at the time, less than 20 career goals is a better theoretical trade than trading the same pick for a multi 40G scorer.

That's not exactly his point though. It's not just trading for a 3OA who has scored less than 20g instead of trading the 7OA for a 40g scorer. It's trading for a 3OA with potential to get much better that we can hold onto for longer than one season.

Of course, both trades would be stupid if Dorion acquired either player without being able to talk to either players' agent to discuss extensions. The point is, trading for Cat only thinking of his 40g seasons in the past is short sighted because there's only certainty that we'd get one year of him.

Would you rather move the pick for one season of top 6 scoring, or potentially several?

 

[Hale The Villain]

You know you've lost the plot when you think trading the 7OA for a guy who had, at the time, less than 20 career goals is a better theoretical trade than trading the same pick for a multi 40G scorer.

A multiple 40G scorer who only put up those numbers because he played with prime Patrick Kane, who also happened to be two years from UFA and had zero interest in signing in Ottawa (which is why Dorion didn't even bother asking before the trade).

Defending the DeBrincat trade right now is impossible, but I wish you the best of luck in that endevour.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yeah I wouldn't necessarily been thrilled with trading the 7th OVR pick for Dach, as I have never been a huge fan, but adding a 20YR old former 3rd OVR pick to the roster with team control for many years would have made infinitely more sense as a way of "accelerating the rebuild" than trading the pick for DeBrincat.

Luckily DBC has turned into UllMark, which is a much better need.

 

[GCK]

Examining the Debrincat disaster

Out:

2022 - 7OA
2022 - 39OA
2024 - 72OA
Mark Kastelic

In:

2024 - 112OA (Javon Moore)
Donovan Sebrango
Linus Ullmark
3M in cap space x 4 years

Staios managed to salvage a very good result considering he also fixed a major Dorion gaffe.

Ullmark + 3M in cap space for 4 years is decent value for 7OA. Sebrango/ Kastelic is beginning to look like a wash.

 

[Loach]

Examining the Debrincat disaster

Out:

2022 - 7OA
2022 - 39OA
2024 - 72OA
Mark Kastelic

In:

2024 - 112OA (Javon Moore)
Donovan Sebrango
Linus Ullmark
3M in cap space x 4 years

Staios managed to salvage a very good result considering he also fixed a major Dorion gaffe.

Ullmark + 3M in cap space for 4 years is decent value for 7OA. Sebrango/ Kastelic is beginning to look like a wash.

Are you missing a 1rst rnd going out to Boston?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Are you missing a 1rst rnd going out to Boston?

That’s Assets from the DBC and 70A, that became Ullmark.

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

A multiple 40G scorer who only put up those numbers because he played with prime Patrick Kane, who also happened to be two years from UFA and had zero interest in signing in Ottawa (which is why Dorion didn't even bother asking before the trade).

Defending the DeBrincat trade right now is impossible, but I wish you the best of luck in that endevour.

Actually (worse) Dorion was denied permission to speak with the agent/player, but went ahead anyway. He confirmed this.

For the record I was still excited about the trade at the time.

 

[Loach]

That’s Assets from the DBC and 70A, that became Ullmark.

I still don't get it. Never mind. I'm just having a day. Loool.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1844447193618620706

7th Round 211OA 2024

Matvei Korotky - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Matvei Korotky, 2005-12-23 Krasnoyarsk, RUS Russia. Most recently in the MHL with SKA-1946 St. Petersburg. Complete player biography and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

 

[dumbdick]

Examining the Debrincat disaster

Out:

2022 - 7OA
2022 - 39OA
2024 - 72OA
Mark Kastelic

In:

2024 - 112OA (Javon Moore)
Donovan Sebrango
Linus Ullmark
3M in cap space x 4 years

Staios managed to salvage a very good result considering he also fixed a major Dorion gaffe.

Ullmark + 3M in cap space for 4 years is decent value for 7OA. Sebrango/ Kastelic is beginning to look like a wash.

The full Debrincat implication?

Doesn't look so bad in retrospect.


OUT:
Kevin Korchinski (#7)
Joonas Korpisalo (cap dump - 4 years @ $3M)
Paul Ludwinski (#39)
AJ Spellacy (#72)
Mark Kastelik

IN:
Javon Moore
Donovan Sebrango
Alex Debrincat (1 year)
Dominik Kubalik (1 Year)
Linus Ullmark (1 year @ 5M, 4 years @ $8.25M)

Are you plagiarizing my posts? Lol.

 

[Hale The Villain]

You're getting further and further from reality. Keep talking about how trading for Dach made "infinitely more sense" to accelerate the rebuild than a guy who was a proven commodity. Your revisionism of Debrincat's accomplishments is the typical braindead HF take. "He only scored 40+ multiple times because he played with someone better"...is just about the dumbest, most simple take you can possibly have. Impossible to comprehend how you can think Dach would have been a better trade than Debrincat. A guy who's a career 0.5ppg in 200+ career games vs a guy with a career .83ppg in 500+ games. You know, it's ok to admit you're wrong sometimes. I don't know if you think an anvil is gonna fall on your head if you admit it but I can assure you it won't.

A proven commodity who DIDN'T WANT TO PLAY HERE. As Butchy pointed out Dorion tried to gauge his interest in discussing an extension in Ottawa and the Hawks declined to let him speak to DeBrincat's agent, which is all he should have needed to know.

You can't overlook that fact considering he was 2 years away from attaining UFA status and had a 9M QO in 23/24.

Dach was unproven but was 20 years old and was a recent 3rd overall pick that obviously had a lot of talent and upside. If the scouting staff didn't like the names available at 7 and Dorion was intent on trading the pick to speed up the rebuild, trading it for Dach would have been a far smarter way to do it as a Turris-esque buy-low move adding a talented former 3rd overall pick that was struggling.

He traded for DeBrincat because he thought it provided the best chance to push the team to the playoffs early, long-term success be damned. He didn't care about the eventual implications, as he wanted to be able to say he rebuilt the Sens into a playoff team to try to save his own job. It failed spectacularly and defending it is laughable at this point.

 

[Hale The Villain]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1844447193618620706

7th Round 211OA 2024

Matvei Korotky - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Matvei Korotky, 2005-12-23 Krasnoyarsk, RUS Russia. Most recently in the MHL with SKA-1946 St. Petersburg. Complete player biography and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

We really need to add some Russian scouts. Now that Melnyk is gone there's no excuse not to start scouting in Russia again.

Carolina looks to have absolutely stolen Nikita Artamonov in the late 2nd round, and Alexander Nikishin is arguably the best prospect not in the NHL, and they got him in the 3rd round back in 2020.

Many of the biggest steals in the last decade have come out of Russia. Not having anyone there trying to unearth gems is unacceptable.

 

[BankStreetParade]

A proven commodity who DIDN'T WANT TO PLAY HERE. As Butchy pointed out Dorion tried to gauge his interest in discussing an extension in Ottawa and the Hawks declined to let him speak to DeBrincat's agent, which is all he should have needed to know.

You can't overlook that fact considering he was 2 years away from attaining UFA status and had a 9M QO in 23/24.

Dach was unproven but was 20 years old and was a recent 3rd overall pick that obviously had a lot of talent and upside. If the scouting staff didn't like the names available at 7 and Dorion was intent on trading the pick to speed up the rebuild, trading it for Dach would have been a far smarter way to do it as a Turris-esque buy-low move adding a talented former 3rd overall pick that was struggling.

He traded for DeBrincat because he thought it provided the best chance to push the team to the playoffs early, long-term success be damned. He didn't care about the eventual implications, as he wanted to be able to say he rebuilt the Sens into a playoff team to try to save his own job. It failed spectacularly and defending it is laughable at this point.

The premise of one trade is sound and logical, the premise of the other trade is absolutely shambolic.

Whether he ended up signing or not, the premise of trading a high first round pick for a proven commodity - a guy with multiple 40G seasons - makes sense. They probably believed, like has happened to many players before him, that when he got here, got to know the team, players and city, that he'd be open to discussing an extension. We literally just saw the same thing happen with Ullmark and it's happened with many other players in the past. You're upset about the result of the trade, which is totally fair game, but there's no need to diminish a guy's scoring accomplishments so you can rewrite history to suit your narrative.

But then you take your criticism of the trade up 20 notches with this insane premise of trading a high first round pick for an unproven commodity simply because of his draft pedigree. It's genuinely beyond absurdity to argue that a guy who has proven so little in his career would have made "infinitely more sense" as a trade return than a guy who scored 40 multiple times. It's not a reasonable position to take no matter how hard you try to spin Dach's upside while making Debrincat sound like scoring 40 goals happened to him.

 

[Hale The Villain]

The premise of one trade is sound and logical, the premise of the other trade is absolutely shambolic.

Whether he ended up signing or not, the premise of trading a high first round pick for a proven commodity - a guy with multiple 40G seasons - makes sense. They probably believed, like has happened to many players before him, that when he got here, got to know the team, players and city, that he'd be open to discussing an extension. We literally just saw the same thing happen with Ullmark and it's happened with many other players in the past. You're upset about the result of the trade, which is totally fair game, but there's no need to diminish a guy's scoring accomplishments so you can rewrite history to suit your narrative.

But then you take your criticism of the trade up 20 notches with this insane premise of trading a high first round pick for an unproven commodity simply because of his draft pedigree. It's genuinely beyond absurdity to argue that a guy who has proven so little in his career would have made "infinitely more sense" as a trade return than a guy who scored 40 multiple times. It's not a reasonable position to take no matter how hard you try to spin Dach's upside while making Debrincat sound like scoring 40 goals happened to him.

You're completely backwards on this.

Trading for guy who obviously didn't want to play in Ottawa as a quasi-rental because he scored 40G getting fed by Patrick Kane (who we don't have) is not sound and logical because we were a bottom feeder when the trade was made.

Maybe trading all those futures for a guy who didn't want to come to Ottawa and was only a couple years from UFA would make sense if we were a top team in this league that was one piece from potentially winning the cup, but we weren't a DeBrincat away from contending. Heck we weren't even a DeBrincat away from making the playoffs because our roster was bad in other areas. In fact we didn't even need more scoring help. We needed help on D, but Dorion spent a bunch of assets buying high on a supposed elite scorer, who ended up playing 2nd line minutes because we already had a top line LW that is better in Tkachuk.

The Habs literally traded a high 1st for that unproven commodity, not because of draft pedigree, but because of untapped upside as a 6'4 guy with above average skating and talent, so I don't know why you think it would be ridiculous to have done the same.

 

[BankStreetParade]

You're completely backwards on this.

Trading for guy who obviously didn't want to play in Ottawa as a quasi-rental because he scored 40G getting fed by Patrick Kane (who we don't have) is not sound and logical because we were a bottom feeder when the trade was made.

I'll write it out for you again since you chose to seemingly ignore it:

They probably believed, like has happened to many players before him, that when he got here, got to know the team, players and city, that he'd be open to discussing an extension. We literally just saw the same thing happen with Ullmark and it's happened with many other players in the past.

Maybe trading all those futures for a guy who didn't want to come to Ottawa and was only a couple years from UFA would make sense if we were a top team in this league that was one piece from potentially winning the cup, but we weren't a DeBrincat away from contending. Heck we weren't even a DeBrincat away from making the playoffs because our roster was bad in other areas. In fact we didn't even need more scoring help. We needed help on D, but Dorion spent a bunch of assets buying high on a supposed elite scorer, who ended up playing 2nd line minutes because we already had a top line LW that is better in Tkachuk.

This is an outright ridiculous statement. Only 3 teams scored fewer goals than us in 2022-23 and made the playoffs - Winnipeg, Minnesota, NYI. Only 4 teams who scored more goals than us missed the playoffs. There's literally a direct line from scoring more to making the playoffs. In consecutive offseasons since Debrincat left, the team has signed scoring wingers - Tarasenko and Perron. You seem to be like the only person who watches this team and thinks the bolded is true.

The Habs literally traded a high 1st for that unproven commodity, not because of draft pedigree, but because of untapped upside as a 6'4 guy with above average skating and talent, so I don't know why you think it would be ridiculous to have done the same.

Yeah, sorry I'm not buying the value of a 13OA vs. a 7OA being essentially the same. No one would trade back from 7 to 13 without a massive plus and trying to make that argument continues to show just how much you're willing to bend the facts to suit your preposterous narrative.

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

We really need to add some Russian scouts. Now that Melnyk is gone there's no excuse not to start scouting in Russia again.

Carolina looks to have absolutely stolen Nikita Artamonov in the late 2nd round, and Alexander Nikishin is arguably the best prospect not in the NHL, and they got him in the 3rd round back in 2020.

Many of the biggest steals in the last decade have come out of Russia. Not having anyone there trying to unearth gems is unacceptable.

We got Zub at least

But I agree

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I think the key issue with the Debrincat deal isn't just that he acquired a pending UFA in 2 years, it was that he asked to speak to him/his agent, and was declined, as admitted by Dorion himself. You follow through on something like that and nobody wears the egg in the end but you. Like Korpisalo needing 5 years, you just walk away at those big red flags or you'll be out of a job in short order.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I think the key issue with the Debrincat deal isn't just that he acquired a pending UFA in 2 years, it was that he asked to speak to him/his agent, and was declined, as admitted by Dorion himself. You follow through on something like that and nobody wears the egg in the end but you. Like Korpisalo needing 5 years, you just walk away at those big red flags or you'll be out of a job in short order.

Lots of guys have been hesitant to come to Ottawa. Then they actually get here, talk to other players, meet the team and staff, get to know the city and decide to stay. We literally just saw it happen with Ullmark. This is the reality of the Ottawa market. We've always known that we're bottom of the league for free agent destinations. The way we've consistently gotten people to stay is by having them come to the city and realize for themselves how great it is. It just didn't happen to work this time. It's still not a good trade, when you consider the final result, but there's not really a lot of ways to get guys to come here long term.