Around the NHL — Episode XLXVI

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Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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Also the big game hunters for Marner will have a choice between him and Petersen and I think that really helps get him moving with so many teams in play for big salary players

Cal Petersen only has 1 year left at 5.0 AAV and is UFA after that, I think the Flyers can easily afford to bury him another year. Can't see them pay anything to move him this summer

Lindell may be the most underrated player in the league

Guys been a monster for close to a decade and lots of fans don’t even know who he is

Lindell, Harley, Forsling, Montour, Faber... some of these underknown new top D-men... although Lindell has been good for the longest, even had Norris votes in 2018-19 and 2019-20

I would also add Spurgeon, so underrated but Elite for a long period of time
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
55,688
33,283
You can sit on Hockeydb and look at the Columbus Blue Jackets.

2006-2013, rock solid drafting
2016-2020, playoffs and 1 round won

Small market, not desirable for anyone. Everyone wants out. But, good drafting, allowed for trades and their own draftees to have some success.

2014-2021, pretty poor drafting
2021-present, very poor team performance.

Small, market, not desirable for anyone. Everyone wants out. But, POOR drafting, prevented trades and massive failure.

The pattern is undeniable. Columbus, Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit, Arizona/Utah, Montreal. Are all the same. You can see the pattern as clear as day.
(Anaheim, SJ and Chicago, are an exception.. piss poor management/ownership).

Don Waddel is going to need a nuclear powered shovel to dig out from below that rubble. Their 15-22 draft would bring tears to your eyes.
Ok, so using your timeframes, 8 yrs of good drafting from 2006-2014, two years of growth, then 4 years of success?

Clb had 60 picks (average pick was 98th oa), 22 of which played 100 or more games, and they cumulatively scored 4694 pts, solid drafting resulted in 4 consecutive yrs of playoffs from 2016-2020

Now let's look at the sens on a similar schedule

From 2008 to 2015, Ott had 57 picks (average pick was 108th oa), 24 of which played 100 or more games, and they cumulatively scored 5109 pts, solid drafting resulted in 7 consecutive yrs of missing the playoffs from 2017-present.

Seems like significantly better drafting by the sens but significantly worse results in the initial timeframe.
 

L'Aveuglette

つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Jan 8, 2007
48,066
20,130
Montreal
He was a victim of hype. That lead to a lot of hyperbole with his development curve and the role the Rangers were fortunate enough to put him in because let's be real, they never should have been in a position to get him.

You ain't wrong.

In the end this might have been the best team for him to go to, having been highly insulated by all the talent they already have. Going to a shit team might have been too much pressure on the kid because while we're finally seeing his potential, he's clearly not a generational talent who can lead a bunch of scrubs to success.
 

Beech

Registered User
Nov 25, 2020
3,195
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Ok, so using your timeframes, 8 yrs of good drafting from 2006-2014, two years of growth, then 4 years of success?

Clb had 60 picks (average pick was 98th oa), 22 of which played 100 or more games, and they cumulatively scored 4694 pts, solid drafting resulted in 4 consecutive yrs of playoffs from 2016-2020

Now let's look at the sens on a similar schedule

From 2008 to 2015, Ott had 57 picks (average pick was 108th oa), 24 of which played 100 or more games, and they cumulatively scored 5109 pts, solid drafting resulted in 7 consecutive yrs of missing the playoffs from 2017-present.

Seems like significantly better drafting by the sens but significantly worse results in the initial timeframe.
we have discussed this before.

A good draft is not someone who plays games. An RHD who is at best a #7 D man, will play. Because he has no competition. High draft picks, will play on the 3rd and 4th line, again, no competition.

This is a 32 team league. It is incapable of supplying 32 x 22 players. And so, many teams will have 3-5 players that would never be in the league, if the hockey world was twice its size and so twice as many junior players came forth.

Coaches are not stupid, they will play that #1 or #2 pick, so as not to embarrass a GM. And the hope is, the apple gets shined enough to trade it. So some failed second round will get 100 games in 3 years. And then be shipped out and out of the league. By that time 5-6 total years have passed since his draft and all is forgotten. But his stats show 100 game splayed.

Again, we have discussed this at length.

The reality is, the 9-12 teams in the NHL, that suffer from geographic and "other" disadvantages, simply oscillate up and down 2-3 years behind the up and down of their drafting.

And any drought, any extended period when they are not producing, quality top 6 forwards, top 4 D men and goalies, will simply appear in the standings 2-3 years later. And they have little correction options.

Miami, Tampa, Dallas, NY, LA, LV, Nashville, the bulk of the US east coast, Toronto (Birth home to many NHL players), can compensate and can withstand bad drafts. A combination of FA signings, trades of picks for prospects, allow them to overcome.

Go through it again Mick. DO a real qualitative analysis of the players. See the 06-14 and since. (for Columbus). Waddel had better hope that the 2022 and 2023, coupled with an incredible 2024 and 2025 drafts, bail him out. Or Columbus will be another in a list of teams that will miss the playoffs for 7 years or more.

If I was the owner of; MTL, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Buffalo, Columbus, Utah, NJ, NYI, Minnesota. Not a year would go by, when I am not sitting with my hockey ops, getting a full briefing on the drafts that were 3 and 4 years earlier. And I better like what I am hearing! There is no way in hell, I am allowing a GM to continue, if some 3 year period was poor. And failed to produce the net 5-6 players and 2-4 quality players.

How on earth, did Columbus allow the 15, 16, 17 , 18, 19 and 20 drafts to be this bad and not fire everyone, including the janitor and the bus driver? where the bleep was the owner, who in 2018 should have started monitoring and by 2019 realize, WE have a problem. And Jarmo should have been bye-bye by 2020.

unreal, how ridicules these owners are and how uncontrolled some of these franchises seem to be.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
55,688
33,283
we have discussed this before.

A good draft is not someone who plays games. An RHD who is at best a #7 D man, will play. Because he has no competition. High draft picks, will play on the 3rd and 4th line, again, no competition.

This is a 32 team league. It is incapable of supplying 32 x 22 players. And so, many teams will have 3-5 players that would never be in the league, if the hockey world was twice its size and so twice as many junior players came forth.

Coaches are not stupid, they will play that #1 or #2 pick, so as not to embarrass a GM. And the hope is, the apple gets shined enough to trade it. So some failed second round will get 100 games in 3 years. And then be shipped out and out of the league. By that time 5-6 total years have passed since his draft and all is forgotten. But his stats show 100 game splayed.

Again, we have discussed this at length.

The reality is, the 9-12 teams in the NHL, that suffer from geographic and "other" disadvantages, simply oscillate up and down 2-3 years behind the up and down of their drafting.

And any drought, any extended period when they are not producing, quality top 6 forwards, top 4 D men and goalies, will simply appear in the standings 2-3 years later. And they have little correction options.

Miami, Tampa, Dallas, NY, LA, LV, Nashville, the bulk of the US east coast, Toronto (Birth home to many NHL players), can compensate and can withstand bad drafts. A combination of FA signings, trades of picks for prospects, allow them to overcome.

Go through it again Mick. DO a real qualitative analysis of the players. See the 06-14 and since. (for Columbus). Waddel had better hope that the 2022 and 2023, coupled with an incredible 2024 and 2025 drafts, bail him out. Or Columbus will be another in a list of teams that will miss the playoffs for 7 years or more.

If I was the owner of; MTL, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Buffalo, Columbus, Utah, NJ, NYI, Minnesota. Not a year would go by, when I am not sitting with my hockey ops, getting a full briefing on the drafts that were 3 and 4 years earlier. And I better like what I am hearing! There is no way in hell, I am allowing a GM to continue, if some 3 year period was poor. And failed to produce the net 5-6 players and 2-4 quality players.

How on earth, did Columbus allow the 15, 16, 17 , 18, 19 and 20 drafts to be this bad and not fire everyone, including the janitor and the bus driver? where the bleep was the owner, who in 2018 should have started monitoring and by 2019 realize, WE have a problem. And Jarmo should have been bye-bye by 2020.

unreal, how ridicules these owners are and how uncontrolled some of these franchises seem to be.
It's pretty simple, our players on average outperformed Clb players, you say they had solid drafting, but are forever complaining about our drafting being overated.

I don't think you've put in the required work to evaluate either team's drafting, so when you try to establish causality between drafting and team success it's based on garbage data.

If you want to evaluate a team's drafting, here's a potential model;

Get an all in one player evaluation model, like GSVA or WAR.

Use that model to determine the expected value of a draft pick, (I believe Dom Luszczyzyn may have already done this with GSVA)

Chart out how each teams picks have done against the expected value, you can look at their cumulative return, or their average, maybe look at performance by round, and by position.

Rank how teams performed relative to their peers.

Until you have a model that evaluates all teams by the same standard, any conclusions you come to are just conjecture.
 
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bicboi64

Registered User
Aug 13, 2020
5,133
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Brampton
Trouba is a dirtbag, but the Panthers have one on almost every line. I don't have much sympathy for Rodridgues considering he tried to catch Wennberg with the same chickenwing elbow.

You need one player on your roster who's willing to be an absolute dirtbag. Panthers just don't like having to eat what they serve, and Maurice doesn't have an actually strategy against it.

Really hope the Panthers-Rangers series goes to 7 cuz it sure as heck is entertaining. Barkov and Reinhart can't shut down Panarin, Zibby, & Kreider forever
 

Loach

Registered User
Jun 9, 2021
3,100
2,099
Trouba is a dirtbag, but the Panthers have one on almost every line. I don't have much sympathy for Rodridgues considering he tried to catch Wennberg with the same chickenwing elbow.

You need one player on your roster who's willing to be an absolute dirtbag. Panthers just don't like having to eat what they serve, and Maurice doesn't have an actually strategy against it.

Really hope the Panthers-Rangers series goes to 7 cuz it sure as heck is entertaining. Barkov and Reinhart can't shut down Panarin, Zibby, & Kreider forever
The Panthers are daring the refs to make calls. They play dirty. You can't call everything, at a certain point it becomes a farce if you do. That means the Rangers will follow suit. Then it could be a farce the other way. But if they drop the gloves...well that looks bad. Fighting is bad for the league. Guys taking runs at each other trying to end careers ...thats good playoff hockey. I'm all for somebody getting a good beating to calm things down.
 

maclean

Registered User
Jan 4, 2014
8,814
2,838
Tanev injury is really bad news for Dallas. He's been so good for them.

I was like, wasn't he just playing at the World Championship? I somehow had no idea there were two (hides face in shame)

What a game. Really enjoyed that one.

Hopefully they're up for the rest of the job, 2-2 is a real good spot after being written off by so many initially.

I absolutely don't care who wins the series, but agreed that was supremely entertaining. Dallas looked like they had it locked down and Edmonton just exploded out
 
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Beech

Registered User
Nov 25, 2020
3,195
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It's pretty simple, our players on average outperformed Clb players, you say they had solid drafting, but are forever complaining about our drafting being overated.

I don't think you've put in the required work to evaluate either team's drafting, so when you try to establish causality between drafting and team success it's based on garbage data.

If you want to evaluate a team's drafting, here's a potential model;

Get an all in one player evaluation model, like GSVA or WAR.

Use that model to determine the expected value of a draft pick, (I believe Dom Luszczyzyn may have already done this with GSVA)

Chart out how each teams picks have done against the expected value, you can look at their cumulative return, or their average, maybe look at performance by round, and by position.

Rank how teams performed relative to their peers.

Until you have a model that evaluates all teams by the same standard, any conclusions you come to are just conjecture.
OHH MY GOD.. you are engaging in a debate of which loser is the worst loser!!!!!

Both teams are garbage.

Columbus went through a good 8 years 2006-2014 where their draft was good and it resulted in the 17-20 period. Then they stank at the draft again, and the team has since collapsed.

Ottawa had 3 good years 9, 10 and 11. And it showed in the 2017 ECF run.
They then went into the toilette 12-19 and we see the 18-present mess.

Both teams are nearly identical. As is Buffalo, as are the Habs, Wings, Cayotes/UTAH HC, SJ, Anaheim, Chicago.

Which of these bottom 7-8 teams is the worst loser??? Common.

Idiot owners, who failed to properly monitor. Idiot POHOs who failed to monitor. Idiot Media who failed to monitor (although in Media's case, it is hard to do your job when you can easily be spanked).

2014 Columbus takes Sonny Milano. I love that name.. "it's not personal Sonny, It's Business" (see if you can figure out where that line comes from). Look at the next 6-8 guys. Rock solid. Even Tony D'Angelo (When his head is screwed on right)

2015 Ottawa takes White (their 2nd first). Now look at the 5-6 after him.

That is it.. It is that simple. When you are one of the leagues 10-12 underprivileged franchise. You need to minimize the Sonny Milano's, the Collin White's. And increase the "see any of the 4-6 names after them".

April 20th of every year would be my "sit and explain date". My POHO, my GM, and the entire network, would be in a board room at the CTC. 3 and 4 year earlier drafts would be analyzed. The IT man would be sitting at his desk, with an HR person next to him. Waiting for me to text a name. He would then cut off all accesses and credentials, etc. The HR person would finish the paper work. Everyone at that meeting had better hope, I don't text a name(s).

And before you jump a mile high. Yes, there would be fantastic latitude for "hey failure occurs". What there would not be latitude for? "3 straight years of failures occurring"
 
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