Around the League Thread | The one where Florida blows it…?

[vancityluongo]

best example of "best" vs "greatest"

 

[JT Milker]

Gretzky dominated his peers like no one else has ever done - other than Mario until his illness and injuries got to him, and Orr before his knees.

McDavid, along with Crosby, is the best player to come along since then, but he simply hasn't generated the kind of separation from his peers that those three did. Just not in the same class.

Period and end of story. Anyone who actually watched them knows this.

Sure. But McDavid is still a better hockey player right now.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I just can't wait for the season to be over today and hopefully the offseason action starts tomorrow, I need a fix.

 

[bossram]

Easier to identify players from the past that may not do as well based on their habits from their day. Mario did smoke for example. Relied upon more pure talent and thus would have to train harder and hit the gym more in today's NHL.

But, the reverse of taking away the training that McDavid, Crosby, Bedard have had from age 5-18 or what never, to match those of players who were born in the 60's to early 70's they would also be completely different.

Someone like McDavid, with the sheer athleticism, probably would have carved 80s and 90s defenses to shreds.

Someone like Bedard, who relies a lot on unique shooting (a benefit of modern stick tech), perhaps would not excel as much.

I'm saying just dismissing era adjustment because it ignores some things, while the critic themself is also ignoring many things, is not credible.

 

[F A N]

Gretzky dominated his peers like no one else has ever done - other than Mario until his illness and injuries got to him, and Orr before his knees.

McDavid, along with Crosby, is the best player to come along since then, but he simply hasn't generated the kind of separation from his peers that those three did. Just not in the same class.

Period and end of story. Anyone who actually watched them knows this.

I am a big Mario fan so I think peak Mario is better than peak Gretzky but I won’t get into a GOAT debate.

To your point, I think after Mario, it was Jagr then McDavid. I think they clearly separated themselves in terms of leading the league in scoring. To the same degree as Mario and Gretzky? I agree with you and say no.

 

[bossram]

I did a poor job explaining my mind in retrospect...when people talk about era adjustments they often only talk one side of the story. Not all the time but often. Like the post I responded to a bit ago. A modern day player would destroy teams in the 80s because of X,Y,Z failing to take into account the advances everywhere. The numbers aren't actually worked out....

But further my point was there is a very real thing that gets lost even when doing such an adjustment. Sure it could look "close" on the surface but when you dig deeper and you are talking about how good is a player compared to all of his peers well then you can see The Great One is incomparable.

Sure. You could do a very simple Z-score for players in their own respective era and it would confirm that.

 

[MS]

But further my point was there is a very real thing that gets lost even when doing such an adjustment. Sure it could look "close" on the surface but when you dig deeper and you are talking about how good is a player compared to all of his peers well then you can see The Great One is incomparable.

To me he doesn't stack up to Lemieux.

Gretzky was a perfect storm of right place/right player/right time. But he went from scoring 92 goals at age 20 to never finishing top-10 past age 27. His playmaking was sustainable across eras but his goalscoring wasn't.

Lemieux scored 199 points in 76 games (a 209/80 pace) with Bob Errey (3rd line checker) and Rob Brown (aged 20 and out of the NHL 2 years later) as linemates. To me that 88-89 season from Lemieux is the most freakishly great season by any player in NHL history.

 

[Vector]

 

[pitseleh]

To me he doesn't stack up to Lemieux.

Gretzky was a perfect storm of right place/right player/right time. But he went from scoring 92 goals at age 20 to never finishing top-10 past age 27. His playmaking was sustainable across eras but his goalscoring wasn't.

Lemieux scored 199 points in 76 games (a 209/80 pace) with Bob Errey (3rd line checker) and Rob Brown (aged 20 and out of the NHL 2 years later) as linemates. To me that 88-89 season from Lemieux is the most freakishly great season by any player in NHL history.

Lemieux’s 2000/01 is likely to be the craziest season I will have any real memories of. Guy comes back at age 35 after 3.5 years of retirement, joins the Penguins mid-season, then torches the league at a rate that would have had him run away with the Richard / Art Ross. The Penguins were -7 when he joined them and they finished +25.

 

[MS]

Lemieux’s 2000/01 is likely to be the craziest season I will have any real memories of. Guy comes back at age 35 after 3.5 years, joins the Penguins mid-season, then torches the league at a rate that would have had him run away with the Richard / Art Ross. The Penguins were -7 when he joined them and they finished +25.

That season was absolutely f***ing insane. We'd had, like 90 points winning the Art Ross and the guy basically just decides to come out of retirement mid-season and scores at a 150-point pace. At age 35.

The circumstances make that year more astounding than 88-89 but to me 88-89 is just the greatest offensive season ever. He scored at a 209-point pace with probably the worst set of linemates of any top-line C in the NHL.

 

[Bgav]

That season was absolutely f***ing insane. We'd had, like 90 points winning the Art Ross and the guy basically just decides to come out of retirement mid-season and scores at a 150-point pace. At age 35.

The circumstances make that year more astounding than 88-89 but to me 88-89 is just the greatest offensive season ever. He scored at a 209-point pace with probably the worst set of linemates of any top-line C in the NHL.

why cant we ever get one of these goats man.

 

[Nick Lang]

Lemieux’s 2000/01 is likely to be the craziest season I will have any real memories of. Guy comes back at age 35 after 3.5 years of retirement, joins the Penguins mid-season, then torches the league at a rate that would have had him run away with the Richard / Art Ross. The Penguins were -7 when he joined them and they finished +25.

Amazing. Literally brings a tear(s) to my eye when you mentioned it.

 

[Hodgy]

That season was absolutely f***ing insane. We'd had, like 90 points winning the Art Ross and the guy basically just decides to come out of retirement mid-season and scores at a 150-point pace. At age 35.

The circumstances make that year more astounding than 88-89 but to me 88-89 is just the greatest offensive season ever. He scored at a 209-point pace with probably the worst set of linemates of any top-line C in the NHL.

To be fair, Jagr had 120 points that year.

EDIT: it would be interesting to see Jagr's PPG splits for before and after Lemieux joins the team.

 

[MS]

To be fair, Jagr had 120 points that year.

EDIT: it would be interesting to see Jagr's PPG splits for before and after Lemieux joins the team.

Jagr had 38 points in 36 games before Lemieux returned and then 83 points in 45 games after Lemieux returned. So Jagr and Lemieux were essentially scoring at the same pace when they were both in the lineup.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

5 more hours until the Oilers win the Cup and Baby Pettersson gets his buttocks inked with the Oilers logo.

I hope you never make another wager with Oilers or Leafs fans again.

 

[Tact]

5 more hours until the Oilers win the Cup and Baby Pettersson gets his buttocks inked with the Oilers logo.

I hope you never make another wager with Oilers or Leafs fans again.

Omg totally forgot about that

 

[Breakers]

I can’t see Florida recovering if they don’t score first.
They are so fragile right now.

 

[timw33]

I can’t see Florida recovering if they don’t score first.
They are so fragile right now.

Really feels like a “next goal wins” situation.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Omg totally forgot about that

He should have taken me up on my advice and put his ass into witness protection. Pray for BP.

I can’t see Florida recovering if they don’t score first.
They are so fragile right now.

My gut - which is on a role - says this isn’t even going to be close. I think they’re well past the point of recovery, and the Oilers are going to run away with this one.

I’d love to be proven wrong, but my gut is on something of a really annoying streak of being right about this final.

 

[God]

Lemieux’s 2000/01 is likely to be the craziest season I will have any real memories of. Guy comes back at age 35 after 3.5 years of retirement, joins the Penguins mid-season, then torches the league at a rate that would have had him run away with the Richard / Art Ross. The Penguins were -7 when he joined them and they finished +25.

my most vivid memory of that 00/01 comeback is watching don cherry on coach's corner point out that lemieux was literally just floating around on the ice reading the play, not really skating hard, and all of a sudden he's in the perfect position to receive a pass to make a scoring play

then i tried doing that in minor hockey and i was absolutely horrible at it

 

[ProviesGhost]

I kind of feel the Oiler momentum is unstoppable. If Skinner is even average, I think they take it.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

I kind of feel the Oiler momentum is unstoppable. If Skinner is even average, I think they take it.

Even if Skinner is subpar....you really have to believe the Oilers could put a higher number or pucks past Bob anyways.

 

[bandwagonesque]

2.6ppg against dmen hucking darts and chugging beers between periods and goalies that couldn’t stop shots along the ice is not as impressive as 2ppg in 2024. McDouche would be scoring 10ppg in that era.

Gretzky never worked out either, as far as I know. His diet was whatever he was served. Basically every player now works out in the offseason and maintains cardio training 11-12 months a year, every player photographed in shorts has massive quads. Gretzky was consistently 50-80 points ahead of his peers and I think he still would be today.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

If the Oilers win, I might not go outside or on the interwebs for atleast a month.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Okay, I’ve got to throw mad respect to the Oilers fan that Principe just interviewed that said they flew from Edmonton to Florida in a little prop plane that took them 8 hours to get there, just a handful of them. Wow.

And then there’s the guy who says about 100 of them chartered a plane and drank the plane dry. My goodness.