Around the League thread: Phil in Pitt. And other NHL topics

[Nithoniniel]

say what you want, there's never any point to these arguments. I just think this Kane fiasco will pretty much be exactly like the Kobe Bryant case. Noawadays a woman can be drunk, consent to sexual contact and then it is considered rape because she was too drunk , which is a huge grey area.

You really think Kane would be stupid enough to straight up force himself on a woman who said no? Because that's what people are painting it to be without knowing much at all about what happened.

Personally, I can't understand how anyone can be so stupid and disgusting to use a woman who is not in a state to clearly consent. But it is pretty obvious that many people are that stupid and disgusting, and Kane might very well be one of them.

I honestly can't understand people who think this is such a difficult concept.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

If a women cannot clearly give affirmation she wants to go forward with sex then it is definitely taking advantage of the inebriation and rape. I don't dispute that. But a lot of the times drunk girls are wild and enthusiastic then black out afterwards and don't remember how they were acting. It is a big grey area. I never get with chicks that are too drunk and it is wise for men to avoid them but they don't.

For the sake of the NHL I hope Kane is cleared of any wrong doing. All I'm saying is that there is just as big a chance of this girl making it up for $$ as there is Kane being guilty.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Personally, I can't understand how anyone can be so stupid and disgusting to use a woman who is not in a state to clearly consent. But it is pretty obvious that many people are that stupid and disgusting, and Kane might very well be one of them.

I honestly can't understand people who think this is such a difficult concept.

I can't understand why people like to oversimplify matters. As Tucker pointed out, we're not dealing with a clear cut scientific process.

One would think our long history with anti-rape vigilatantism would make us more cautious. Then again, rounding up people and the rest has worked so wonderfully in Canada, Europe and elsewhere...

 

[The_Chosen_One]

If a women cannot clearly give affirmation she wants to go forward with sex then it is definitely taking advantage of the inebriation and rape. I don't dispute that. But a lot of the times drunk girls are wild and enthusiastic then black out afterwards and don't remember how they were acting. It is a big grey area. I never get with chicks that are too drunk and it is wise for men to avoid them but they don't.

For the sake of the NHL I hope Kane is cleared of any wrong doing. All I'm saying is that there is just as big a chance of this girl making it up for $$ as there is Kane being guilty.

That's how I see it. Much of the unavoidable party scene is defined by such behaviour. It's a female market as well so I'm not sure if patriarchy-is-everywhere approach should be used.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I can't understand why people like to oversimplify matters. As Tucker pointed out, we're not dealing with a clear cut scientific process.

One would think our long history with anti-rape vigilatantism would make us more cautious. Then again, rounding up people and the rest has worked so wonderfully in Canada, Europe and elsewhere...

I don't see the oversimplification. As a guy, I would never touch a girl who was not clearly capable of showing consent. If she's so drunk you don't think she knows what she's doing, you don't touch her. Context doesn't change that. It doesn't matter what has been said and done up to that point. It's not hard, confusing or a big gray area, it's just common sense and respect for other human beings.

I have no idea why you switch the subject to anti-rape vigilantism. That had nothing to do with what I said.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

I don't see the oversimplification. As a guy, I would never touch a girl who was not clearly capable of showing consent. If she's so drunk you don't think she knows what she's doing, you don't touch her. Context doesn't change that. It doesn't matter what has been said and done up to that point. It's not hard, confusing or a big gray area,

I have no idea why you switch the subject to anti-rape vigilantism. That had nothing to do with what I said.

Once again, you're oversimplifying and unwilling to understand the position at hand. The state of intoxication isn't some sort of binary process.

I am sure the vast majority of us would not sleep with someone 1) unconscious or 2) near-dead drunk. The problem is when we're dealing with states where the person doesn't appear compromise and DOES give out consent.

it's just common sense and respect for other human beings.

Yeah, it's common sense until a bunch of people end up in prison due to a "hard-boiled" sentencing process. I just love the sheer arrogance when all of us here are tied to a history where rape accusations led to lynching and uprooted communities.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Once again, you're oversimplifying and unwilling to understand the position at hand. The state of intoxication isn't some sort of binary process.

I am sure the vast majority of us would not sleep with someone 1) unconscious or 2) near-dead drunk. The problem is when we're dealing with states where the person doesn't appear compromise and DOES give out consent.

Yeah, it's common sense until a bunch of people end up in prison due to a "hard-boiled" sentencing process. I just love the sheer arrogance when all of us here are tied to a history where rape accusations led to lynching and uprooted communities.

You and I must have completely different views on what "doesn't appear compromise and DOES give out consent" means. I'm very aware that it's not a "binary process", I'm just of the opinion that if you enter a situation where there's any reason to doubt, you keep your pants on.

You've made a series of posts that seem very critical to the way these laws generally work. Care to explain how you'd ideally want to change that?

 

[The_Chosen_One]

You and I must have completely different views on what "doesn't appear compromise and DOES give out consent" means. I'm very aware that it's not a "binary process", I'm just of the opinion that if you enter a situation where there's any reason to doubt, you keep your pants on.

As I said earlier, it's easier said than done. One may be certain because the default state in the nightclub is to be somewhat tipsy.

To be accused of rape or not may just depend on the person who accuses. I am not sure if a reliable scheme can be introduced here.

I suppose being more conservative and establishing greater rapport with a potential fling buddy is required. Then again, with the current mobs out, I'm thinking we may need to question unchaperoned flings. From what I'm hearing, it seems like the rate rivals a war zone.

You've made a series of posts that seem very critical to the way these laws generally work. Care to explain how you'd ideally want to change that?

It's much like laws against narcotics, it's application is usually problematic. I think the best thing to do with rape is to look at what drives the phenomena.

Most agree it's power-based and the statistics makes it clear that it manifests more in poorer, more marginalised communities. I think tackling the economic side ( a total failure, by the way) and educating the population on the complexity of courting may be needed.

This could end up being the end of these "hook up" centres, though. Maybe even consider introducing laws to heavily restrict alcohol consumption in these venue. I think that would be considerably more sustainable than formal consent contracts that Swedish lawmakers have been proposing. In either case, it does seem rather disappointing because this process is really arbitrary.

 

[Nithoniniel]

As I said earlier, it's easier said than done. One may be certain because the default state in the nightclub is to be somewhat tipsy.

To be accused of rape or not may just depend on the person who accuses. I am not sure if a reliable scheme can be introduced here.

I suppose being more conservative and establishing greater rapport with a potential fling buddy is required. Then again, with the current mobs out, I'm thinking we may need to question unchaperoned flings. From what I'm hearing, it seems like the rate rivals a war zone.

It's much like laws against narcotics, it's application is usually problematic. I think the best thing to do with rape is to look at what drives the phenomena.

Most agree it's power-based and the statistics makes it clear that it manifests more in poorer, more marginalised communities. I think tackling the economic side ( a total failure, by the way) and educating the population on the complexity of courting may be needed.

This could end up being the end of these "hook up" centres, though. Maybe even consider introducing laws to heavily restrict alcohol consumption in these venue. I think that would be considerably more sustainable than formal consent contracts that Swedish lawmakers have been proposing. In either case, it does seem rather disappointing because this process is really arbitrary.

I may have let my personal experiences and disgust over the general tone that some have in this discussion (especially on the main board) affect how I portray things. It can obviously be problematic at times and even though I'd still say that it's our duty to err on the side of caution and do our utmost to avoid situations like this, I shouldn't pin all the blame on the perpetrator that way.

I guess what I do feel is that the error margin, while very regrettable and problematic in its own way, is a lesser evil compared of course to the crime itself, but also with the huge amount of unreported crimes and the difficulty we still have in accurately making criminal cases against perpetrators.

When it comes to your solution, I don't think they are enough. I think, but don't have the research to back it up, that this particular crime is driven more by sociopath behavior and less by the social elements you mentioned than normal. I'm at a loss for a good solution to that.

Alcohol is a huge factor, of course, just like it always is with social pollution of any kind. I think you're right that the casual sex scene breeds a lack of respect for each other that probably factors in as well.

 

[ULF_55]

Alcohol is a huge factor, of course, just like it always is with social pollution of any kind. I think you're right that the casual sex scene breeds a lack of respect for each other that probably factors in as well.

Yes, two drunks fall into bed together and one wakes up with regret and doubt.

If it is the male does anyone care?

 

[Daisy Jane]

Yes, two drunks fall into bed together and one wakes up with regret and doubt.

If it is the male does anyone care?

if the male was my friend, I would.

on a purely Hockey convo - Rangers signed Stoll yesterday to a 1 year deal

 

[Cor]

Luca Caputi is now coaching for the Generals

 

[Daisy Jane]

This list is missing some Blackhawks, just saying.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/08/bes...boston-celtics-pat-patriot-washington-bullets

 

[The_Chosen_One]

I may have let my personal experiences and disgust over the general tone that some have in this discussion (especially on the main board) affect how I portray things. It can obviously be problematic at times and even though I'd still say that it's our duty to err on the side of caution and do our utmost to avoid situations like this, I shouldn't pin all the blame on the perpetrator that way.

I guess what I do feel is that the error margin, while very regrettable and problematic in its own way, is a lesser evil compared of course to the crime itself, but also with the huge amount of unreported crimes and the difficulty we still have in accurately making criminal cases against perpetrators.

When it comes to your solution, I don't think they are enough. I think, but don't have the research to back it up, that this particular crime is driven more by sociopath behavior and less by the social elements you mentioned than normal. I'm at a loss for a good solution to that.

Alcohol is a huge factor, of course, just like it always is with social pollution of any kind. I think you're right that the casual sex scene breeds a lack of respect for each other that probably factors in as well.

That's what they said when they were executing "lesser" races and peoples worldwide. As I said before, rape is highly loaded and if that's difficult to understand, I don't even see why we bother remembering our "harsh" history.

Anyhow, the statistics are pretty clear about rape. In fact, even the entire rape kit phenomena heavily clusters in the poorest, often racialised communities. It's much like with any violent crime, increased poverty tends to drive assault rates. I would suggest looking up Blau and Blau's argument of rape essentially being a cost of metropolitan-based poverty.

 

[Drew75]

Im in Toronto this week.
Any good restaurant I should go? (not too expensive)

Didnt see any thread for this

For a Habs fan I'd have to recommend Real Sports Bar & Grill It's right behind the ACC

Otherwise - depends what you like ... Joey's Eaton Centre has good food, nice place, Keg Mansion is always a cool place to grab a good steak, and my favorite Italian place is Grazie's at Yonge and Eglinton.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Santorelli to the Ducks for $875,000. Obviously wanted to go to a contender.

 

[Ovate]

Ducks are looking great next year, and I like Boudreau. They're my favourite team in the Pacific, by virtue of hating everyone else. Looks like they're one Franson or Erhoff signing away from being the cup favourites.

 

[rdawg1234]

Ducks are looking great next year, and I like Boudreau. They're my favourite team in the Pacific, by virtue of hating everyone else. Looks like they're one Franson or Erhoff signing away from being the cup favourites.

The west is too hard to judge.

LA just added Lucic to their already insane lineup, I honestly think they were just burntout from playing so much hockey the last few seasons, they're gonna be a very good team this year.

definitely going to be Anaheim, Chi or LA though for sure. All three are just too damn good.

East is pretty predictable IMO, it's NYR and Tampa again no question, both have added to their depth(Jared Stoll is a good signing for NYR) and both are great on both ends of the ice. Washington might be a wildcard though, they picked up a lot of talent. MTL and NYI are pretenders IMO, MTL badly needs a star on offence, they are the definition of a good enough to compete but never good enough to get a championship every year, great goaltending, good defence, horribly average offence.

 

[Mess]

Santorelli to the Ducks for $875,000. Obviously wanted to go to a contender.

According to Thats Hockey yesterday they said Santorelli turned down a 3 year deal in the $2 mil range from the Leafs with his agent thinking they could get more than that as a UFA.

Now desperate in August this is the best deal they could find.

So they badly miscalculated the demand and market.

 

[Ovate]

The west is too hard to judge.

LA just added Lucic to their already insane lineup, I honestly think they were just burntout from playing so much hockey the last few seasons, they're gonna be a very good team this year.

definitely going to be Anaheim, Chi or LA though for sure. All three are just too damn good.

East is pretty predictable IMO, it's NYR and Tampa again no question, both have added to their depth(Jared Stoll is a good signing for NYR) and both are great on both ends of the ice. Washington might be a wildcard though, they picked up a lot of talent. MTL and NYI are pretenders IMO, MTL badly needs a star on offence, they are the definition of a good enough to compete but never good enough to get a championship every year, great goaltending, good defence, horribly average offence.

I agree that it's NYR's and Tampa's divisions to lose, but Washington could be a challenger. Not sure about NYI or MTL, I think they punched above their weight last year, NYI with it's rookies and MTL with Price. Pittsburgh is another team that could be a challenger. Any team with Crosby and Malkin is a playoff team, and adding Kessel to that cast is going to do some damage. Columbus will be very threatening the next year, but they're a very young team and taking it slow.

In the West, you're right that LA and Anaheim are contenders, but Anaheim will definitely be the one to win the Pacific in the regular season. LA's always been a playoff team.

I think Chicago lost too much in the offseason. Sharp, Saad, and Oduya are not replaced by Anisimov, Dano/Morin and Daley. Plus, there's the allegations against Kane right now. Nashville would be my pick for winning the Central, as St. Louis downgraded in the offseason, but it's up in the air with Minnesota, Winnipeg, and Dallas all having a shot (largely dependent on their goaltending).

 

[Daisy Jane]

I agree that it's NYR's and Tampa's divisions to lose, but Washington could be a challenger. Not sure about NYI or MTL, I think they punched above their weight last year, NYI with it's rookies and MTL with Price. Pittsburgh is another team that could be a challenger. Any team with Crosby and Malkin is a playoff team, and adding Kessel to that cast is going to do some damage. Columbus will be very threatening the next year, but they're a very young team and taking it slow.

In the West, you're right that LA and Anaheim are contenders, but Anaheim will definitely be the one to win the Pacific in the regular season. LA's always been a playoff team.

I think Chicago lost too much in the offseason. Sharp, Saad, and Oduya are not replaced by Anisimov, Dano/Morin and Daley. Plus, there's the allegations against Kane right now. Nashville would be my pick for winning the Central, as St. Louis downgraded in the offseason, but it's up in the air with Minnesota, Winnipeg, and Dallas all having a shot (largely dependent on their goaltending).

St Louis Downgraded?
who else did they lose besides Oshie?

 

[Ovate]

St Louis Downgraded?
who else did they lose besides Oshie?

They lost some defensive depth in Jackman, who I'd say was a good #5, without replacing him. I'm more concerned that Backes and Steen, are 31 years old and don't play the type of game conducive to longevity.

 

[Daisy Jane]

They lost some defensive depth in Jackman, who I'd say was a good #5, without replacing him. I'm more concerned that Backes and Steen, are 31 years old and don't play the type of game conducive to longevity.

oh thanks Ovate

 

[Swervin81]

So it looks like coaches are getting in trouble too... Wild assistant Daryl Sydor got tagged with DUI and child endangerment after driving at 0.3% BAC (HOLY ****ING ****!!!) with his son in the back. My goodness

With Uber nowadays, no excuse for this **** whatsoever.

 

[p.l.f.]

Yeah that is inexcusable