Around the League thread: Phil in Pitt. And other NHL topics

[tmlms13]

Patrick Kane under investigation for Sexual Assualt.

If Bettman wants to be consistent he should give him the Slava Voynov treatment.

 

[ACC1224]

mmm don't know about thatView attachment 84281

What does that prove?

 

[Daisy Jane]

What was Dean Lombardi thinking when he said this: http://www.broadstreethockey.com/20...eech-will-make-you-want-to-run-through-a-wall

it is a touch over done.

and by a touch i mean, overdone is a line to Lombardi in that speech.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I remember when Kessel had poor character but not one chirp about P.Kane.

(some) Leafs fans are ridiculous with their double standards

 

[Menzinger]

I remember when Kessel had poor character but not one chirp about P.Kane.

(some) Leafs fans are ridiculous with their double standards

I can't stand the "character" discussions and Kessel.

LA has two guys in legal trouble for illicit drug use, a guy who (allegedly) beat his wife, and another guy who (likely) got booted off his original team for partying too much AND that's just what the public knows about. They still managed to win two cups with this group too.

Kessel was never a problem off ice on the slightest.

 

[Crysis]

Patrick Kane under investigation for Sexual Assualt.

If Bettman wants to be consistent he should give him the Slava Voynov treatment.

Whenever this happens to someone rich and famous your first thought HAS TO BE that it COULD be a false accusation to try and settle out of court for a nice chunk of change.

Of course lets hope this IS the case and no woman was actually assaulted here, but if not(and there was a woman assaulted), let's also hope that the above mentioned preconceived notion doesn't help him walk.

Hopefully justice will be served, no matter who the guilty party is.

This may be a very blunt way to look at it but it is what it is.

 

[TMLegend]

mmm don't know about thatView attachment 84281

Phil looks like Phil there. Looks the same to me. I wonder if Stan Bowman will terminate Patrick Kane's contract? Or is that left for mediocre players like Mike Richards?

 

[Daisy Jane]

Phil looks like Phil there. Looks the same to me. I wonder if Stan Bowman will terminate Patrick Kane's contract? Or is that left for mediocre players like Mike Richards?

isn't that the question. Lombardi totally opened up an unintentional kettle of fish here.
and sadly, I have a feeling it won't be if Kane is found guilty.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Lol. All of Kessel's deficiencies will disappear now that he's in Pittsburgh, like clockwork. Only people who will bring them up are the ones attached to his jock strap on this board. I bet no one will mention his head being down after every shift as a Pen.

 

[MadSnowman42]

I can't stand the "character" discussions and Kessel.

LA has two guys in legal trouble for illicit drug use, a guy who (allegedly) beat his wife, and another guy who (likely) got booted off his original team for partying too much AND that's just what the public knows about. They still managed to win two cups with this group too.

Kessel was never a problem off ice on the slightest.

There are different kinds of character issues you can have. While not being a decent person off the ice should be considered the bigger character flaw, Kessel's (supposed) lack of work ethic nevertheless is a character flaw as well. A different one that pales in comparison to the above mentioned, sure, but a highly relevant one when talking about his worth as a hockey player.

 

[MadSnowman42]

I wonder if Stan Bowman will terminate Patrick Kane's contract? Or is that left for mediocre players like Mike Richards?

Very different scenarios: The termination of Richards' contract was the convenient solution for Lombardi to rid himself of an unwanted contract and cap hit. Read cap management.

Unlike Richards, Kane level of play is actually worth his contract, so from a hockey perspective there is no reason for Bowman to terminate the contract. Terminating his contract would only be done to avoid a public relations disaster. I think it would at least require Kane to actually be found guilty of the crime and even then I guess a public outcry that forces the Blackhawks to act would be necessary.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

There are different kinds of character issues you can have. While not being a decent person off the ice should be considered the bigger character flaw, Kessel's (supposed) lack of work ethic nevertheless is a character flaw as well. A different one that pales in comparison to the above mentioned, sure, but a highly relevant one when talking about his worth as a hockey player.

Drew Doughty was asked about Kessel's time in Toronto during an interview. Paraphrased, he said that playing in Toronto was equivalent to playing under the microscope and that Kessel's character issues were overblown.

Doughty was once criticized about his work ethic, or lacktherof. The same fans that slagged Kessel probably would've been the same ones slagging Doughty were the roles reversed.

Doughty is a player who can take over a game, and often does. He was the lead blueliner for Team Canada when it won gold at the world juniors in January. One shift he would start the offense with a breakout pass, the next he would jump into the rush. In the OHL, Doughty logged huge minutes for the Storm, 35 some nights, other nights even more. Off the ice, he's a laid-back character -- scouts who like him will put that down as "cool" and others as "a little casual." Given his surname, it's no surprise that his nickname is "Doughnuts," but there's a bit of a backhand there too (the 6-footer was over 215 and pushing 220 this season and it wasn't simply a matter of being big-boned).

Fact of the matter is that Kessel was in a poor situation; management simply capitalized on a bad situation that wasn't going to improve with time because they didn't see the Maple Leafs competing any time soon.

 

[LeafsMonster]

Whenever this happens to someone rich and famous your first thought HAS TO BE that it COULD be a false accusation to try and settle out of court for a nice chunk of change.

Of course lets hope this IS the case and no woman was actually assaulted here, but if not(and there was a woman assaulted), let's also hope that the above mentioned preconceived notion doesn't help him walk.

Hopefully justice will be served, no matter who the guilty party is.

This may be a very blunt way to look at it but it is what it is.

Completely agree with this. I don't want to believe Kane did this or is capable of doing this, but considering his past it wouldn't be totally unbelievable.

Drinking too much, partying cause of a cup win. I get it. But anything that happens while intoxicated isn't excused. And the woman had a rape kit done so we should here more soon i would assume.

Sucks either way. So much talent, it would be a shame to see it wasted because he couldn't grow up and mature, or simply know right from wrong (assuming he is guilty).

 

[MadSnowman42]

Drew Doughty was asked about Kessel's time in Toronto during an interview. Paraphrased, he said that playing in Toronto was equivalent to playing under the microscope and that Kessel's character issues were overblown.

So much for my feeble attempt not to open this can of worms.

Overblown? Maybe. On the one hand, you can argue that fans and media were looking for a scapegoat and his bumbling behaviour towards said groups did nothing to help his case. On the other hand, if your best and highest paid player, the cornerstone of the franchise, is concerned, the issue becomes more important because you do not want him to set a bad example.

Anyway, I do not really want to get into this. It is too much conjecture because none of us has insight into the Leafs' locker room. The point I tried to make in my original post was that from a hockey perspective work ethics are important and a lack thereof qualifies as a character issue. Criminal offences being worse character issues does not change that. Hence, the discussion regarding Kessel (notwithstanding whether he is actually guilty of laziness or not).

 

[HoweHullOrr]

The UFA contracts have been much more reasonable this season.

Sekera 6 years X 5.5M is much better value than MacDonald/Orpik contracts IMO, Beleskey signed for 5 years X 3.8M, much less than the rumoured Clarkson numbers, Green only got a three year contract, etc.

Agreed. Market dynamics seem to have changed.

I think organizations are worried about the direction of the Cap, plus there are fewer loopholes that GMs can use. I think they are seeing smaller (or no) raises in future. There is a reason (or reasons) for everything.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

So much for my feeble attempt not to open this can of worms.

Overblown? Maybe. On the one hand, you can argue that fans and media were looking for a scapegoat and his bumbling behaviour towards said groups did nothing to help his case. On the other hand, if your best and highest paid player, the cornerstone of the franchise, is concerned, the issue becomes more important because you do not want him to set a bad example.

Anyway, I do not really want to get into this. It is too much conjecture because none of us has insight into the Leafs' locker room. The point I tried to make in my original post was that from a hockey perspective work ethics are important and a lack thereof qualifies as a character issue. Criminal offences being worse character issues does not change that. Hence, the discussion regarding Kessel (notwithstanding whether he is actually guilty of laziness or not).

Rape was historically a very loaded crime, though. Public lynching - virtually everywhere - often started with rape as did the need for the military to uproot some "rowdy" minority group.

That being said, I'm not sure if this incident is that clear cut. In most Western societies, an intoxicated man having intercourse with a similarly intoxicated woman would be considered a rapist. This is derived from feminism itself which argues that females don't possess the same ability of consent as men.

I'm not sure Kane's partying antics suggests anything. Hell, economic status and even race seems to be a factor in rape statistics but correlation doesn't imply causation.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Sure sounds like Kane is in big trouble based on reports from the Buffalo News. If so, this is very disappointing.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-reg...-confirm-kane-is-under-investigation-20150807

 

[Menzinger]

Yeah, the Kane situation is really, really nasty.

That being said, I'm not sure if this incident is that clear cut. In most Western societies, an intoxicated man having intercourse with a similarly intoxicated woman would be considered a rapist. This is derived from feminism itself which argues that females don't possess the same ability of consent as men.

I don't want to get into an argument about this (In a hockey forum of all places), but this isn't true at all. It's against law because it is deemed that adults (not just women) are not of sound mind while intoxicated - ie you can't drive a car, can't be forced to sign a contract, ect. It's pretty clear as day.

 

[Swervin81]

I think the Kane situation smells mad fishy. Some drunk loose woman at a house party having a crazy night with a millionaire and his flunkys... only to wake up sober and ashamed... and what a coincidence, he has ton's of money and a bad rep.... I don't want to get too much into this but I found this post on sportnet's facebook and thought it summed up the situation pretty well...

"The "it could be your sister" argument is TOTAL ********. Women can be conniving, dirty, skumbags too. They are not little innocent girls that men want to take advantage of. THEY ARE HORNY TOO. Get real with this think of the children BS. She was at a party of a young millionaire hockey player, probably drunk and on drugs and she wanted NO part of him? He had to force himself on some random girl when he could go out and hire 10 drop dead hot porn stars to **** him with his pocket change? GET REAL PEOPLE. THINK IN REALITY. "


We'll probably never know the full truth , and un-consensual sex and RAPE is WRONG and HORRIBLE. But under these circumstances I find it highly shady and convenient and I am sickened at all the people in social media already condemning Kane. Bryant was guilty too until they found she had sex with 7 other men that night and none of them were accused of rape .... and none of them were loaded either.

Oh, the irony. So we should automatically assume she's a lying gold digger? Really, man? Really?

You do realize that false claims are a very small minority of reported rapes. Like, maybe 2%-5%.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Oh, the irony. So we should automatically assume she's a lying gold digger? Really, man? Really?

You do realize that false claims are a very small minority of reported rapes. Like, maybe 2%-5%.

another white knight...


first of all how many cases of reported rapes involve superstar multi-millionaire athletes?

and 5% of reported rapes being false IS a big number... do you understand what we are talking about?

can't you see how a claim against Kane or Bryant is different than an everyday schmoe?

I don't condone rape or violence against women at all. Never have done it never will. But this is just entirely too vauge, shady and suspect for me to dismiss the fact this could very easily be a case of someone seeking a payday in civil court.

From what we know, she was at a house party intoxicated with other intoxicated people. Somehow the richest and most eligible bachelor had to force himself on her to get what he wanted?

If you can't draw huge parallel lines to the Kobe Bryant fiasco where it was found many other men had sex with her that night but only Bryant was accused cuz he had money then something is wrong with you. You must have some super femi-nazi agenda to already have a negative verdict towards Kane in this incident.

 

[Muston Atthews]

White knight... lmao. Sounds like another dude who thinks he can do whatever he wants with women You do realize your whole argument is based upon the assumption that since Kane is rich and famous that he "wouldn't have to rape" any girl, they'd just be throwing themselves at him. You paint the side that says "hmm... maybe Kane did do something wrong" as white knights. Then you go on to say that you are "sickened" by people condemning Kane for his actions already through social media while you are taking the complete opposite stance and doing the same thing.

Why don't we let the professionals do what they do best and investigate this to the fullest extent instead of speculating and calling people names because they don't agree with you. Just to add so I don't seem like a "white knight", I wrote quite a large paper last year in university on the negative effects of social media with regards to high profile rape cases.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

White knight... lmao. Sounds like another dude who thinks he can do whatever he wants with women You do realize your whole argument is based upon the assumption that since Kane is rich and famous that he "wouldn't have to rape" any girl, they'd just be throwing themselves at him. You paint the side that says "hmm... maybe Kane did do something wrong" as white knights. Then you go on to say that you are "sickened" by people condemning Kane for his actions already through social media while you are taking the complete opposite stance and doing the same thing.

Why don't we let the professionals do what they do best and investigate this to the fullest extent instead of speculating and calling people names because they don't agree with you. Just to add so I don't seem like a "white knight", I wrote quite a large paper last year in university on the negative effects of social media with regards to high profile rape cases.

say what you want, there's never any point to these arguments. I just think this Kane fiasco will pretty much be exactly like the Kobe Bryant case. Noawadays a woman can be drunk, consent to sexual contact and then it is considered rape because she was too drunk , which is a huge grey area.

You really think Kane would be stupid enough to straight up force himself on a woman who said no? Because that's what people are painting it to be without knowing much at all about what happened.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Yeah, the Kane situation is really, really nasty.



I don't want to get into an argument about this (In a hockey forum of all places), but this isn't true at all. It's against law because it is deemed that adults (not just women) are not of sound mind while intoxicated - ie you can't drive a car, can't be forced to sign a contract, ect. It's pretty clear as day.

Then we'll agree to disagree. I don't think it's hardly applied in a gender neutral sense despite being legally defined. Contradictions commonly arise in legal systems even today and that's clearly being seen in campus as well.

Just ask an indigenous person. Rape has been a loaded issue for a while and has even been used to drive fierce intervention policies and lynching.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

say what you want, there's never any point to these arguments. I just think this Kane fiasco will pretty much be exactly like the Kobe Bryant case. Noawadays a woman can be drunk, consent to sexual contact and then it is considered rape because she was too drunk , which is a huge grey area.

You really think Kane would be stupid enough to straight up force himself on a woman who said no? Because that's what people are painting it to be without knowing much at all about what happened.

To make it worse women are drinking more than ever before despite general decrease in consumption rates. Since men initiate and court, we have to be crafty with our approach.

On the other hand, one will see women totally acting like a geek off the street due to knowing that men will flock. This is a problem when there is a bigger market for women as well. It is not a clear-cut process at all but let's continue to oversimplify as usual.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

another white knight...


first of all how many cases of reported rapes involve superstar multi-millionaire athletes?

and 5% of reported rapes being false IS a big number... do you understand what we are talking about?

can't you see how a claim against Kane or Bryant is different than an everyday schmoe?

I don't condone rape or violence against women at all. Never have done it never will. But this is just entirely too vauge, shady and suspect for me to dismiss the fact this could very easily be a case of someone seeking a payday in civil court.

From what we know, she was at a house party intoxicated with other intoxicated people. Somehow the richest and most eligible bachelor had to force himself on her to get what he wanted?

If you can't draw huge parallel lines to the Kobe Bryant fiasco where it was found many other men had sex with her that night but only Bryant was accused cuz he had money then something is wrong with you. You must have some super femi-nazi agenda to already have a negative verdict towards Kane in this incident.

Rape is heavily class-based and racialised in fact. One could look at cursory statistics and see it - much like other forms of violence - in poorer and broken communities. There's a big "racial" component to it despite the interracial dimension being poorly understood due to terrible sampling sizes.

The entire eliminate-patriarchy-to-end-sexual-violence has been an utter disaster all over the world. That includes intervention in aboriginal communities ( vs the big, black, male rapist) to those in Canada, the Saami populations or elsewhere. I am not surprised we'll continue to be as stupid as forefathers because that's really just in our blood.

Now if we're talking about ending violence against women, maybe we ought to look at economic factors. For a while ( or virtually forever for "subordinate" groups), enhancing economic outcomes has never been a policy choice. Instead job outcomes are becoming shoddier, unemployment edges up and thanks to the rise of inequity we see increased crime statistics. That's not surprising at all.