Around the League Thread part V

[KingsFan7824]

We knew what we were getting instantly when Kopitar and Doughty made it to the team and exploded. None of these players are close to them. I think you need to be a bit realistic. I dont know what winning the cup has to do with the Kings not drafting generational players through their rebuild. All Im saying is that it doesn't take a scientist to realize at best we got some stars. Not Kopitar/ Doughty tier. I dont see how you can get up in arms about that. Kopitar and Doughty were instantly stars. These guys not so much.


Which is why I am saying that we most likely got RNHs than Draisaitls. And if that is the case (which is why I said unless these players really really hit their stride which its also likely they dont since they havent shown to be superstar quality, they MIGHT bottom out once Kopitar and Doughty are gone. How is that hard to comprehend? just envision the line up without Kopitars and Doughtys with RNHs instead. Kings got lucky with Doughty and Kopitar. All I am saying is that it took McDavid to make the Oilers competitive. Kings will likely need to find something like that unless these players do REALLY REALLY well. and Its not hard to believe that they wont.

Which is the reason why most teams don't try to tank most of the time. The odds of getting the right one, two, maybe even three guys, at the same time, are low. So teams say, better to at least make the playoffs, where you never know, as opposed to get lost in the wilderness for a decade. Or, possibly more likely, you rebuild, but the best you do is pretty much where you were before you started rebuilding. You're just a younger version of that, which I guess is good, because it's younger.

Always keep in mind, the Kings were outside of the playoff picture the day they traded for Carter. With the 23rd most regulation wins. That's called a plan working.

I am not sure what you mean. The Kings have a couple of contracts like this and they have worked out just fine.

The cap should go. If there's no cap, and you're not a big spending team, you get to rebuild every handful of years. You get a very short window where you might have a chance if everything comes together, but guys get too expensive, the big spenders start circling the waters, and then you rebuild again.

With the cap, it's inevitable that you get stuck with bad contracts. Because you have to spend that money on someone, and Toronto isn't there anymore to take your $7m 3rd liner who they'll put on their 4th line.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Which is the reason why most teams don't try to tank most of the time. The odds of getting the right one, two, maybe even three guys, at the same time, are low. So teams say, better to at least make the playoffs, where you never know, as opposed to get lost in the wilderness for a decade. Or, possibly more likely, you rebuild, but the best you do is pretty much where you were before you started rebuilding. You're just a younger version of that, which I guess is good, because it's younger.

Always keep in mind, the Kings were outside of the playoff picture the day they traded for Carter. With the 23rd most regulation wins. That's called a plan working.

I agree with you. I just disagree with the binary "go for it/tank" mindset, there's a lot of grey area where you're a team on the uprise, downswing, etc.

I think this whole convo started with Calgary, who was very clearly at the end of their rope with all their important vets departing and few impact youth on the way. No, maybe they shouldn't tank, but they should certainly exercise more caution than giving Huberdeau a suitcase full of cash immediately.

 

[King'sPawn]

I agree with you. I just disagree with the binary "go for it/tank" mindset, there's a lot of grey area where you're a team on the uprise, downswing, etc.

I think this whole convo started with Calgary, who was very clearly at the end of their rope with all their important vets departing and few impact youth on the way. No, maybe they shouldn't tank, but they should certainly exercise more caution than giving Huberdeau a suitcase full of cash immediately.

Agreed. Their top core players left and they are hitching their wagon to Huberdeau where they've yet to see what type of impact they'd have with him, after a career year, and will be spending the entirety of his contract in his 30s.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Agreed. Their top core players left and they are hitching their wagon to Huberdeau where they've yet to see what type of impact they'd have with him, after a career year, and will be spending the entirety of his contract in his 30s.

I think to some degree I get it becasue he 'replaces" Johnny Hockey, but if you weren't good enough with Tkachuk and everyone having basically career years, why would you suddenly be good enough with Weegar and Huberdeau, who are choke artists themselves?

 

[KingsHockey24]

Spent a good 10 minutes coming up with this; I'm fairly confident Detroit finds a way to sneak in.

Metro:
1. Carolina
2. Washington
3. Pittsburgh
4. Columbus
5. NYR
6. New Jersey
7. Philly
8. NYI

Atlantic:
1. Tampa Bay
2. Boston
3. Toronto
4. Detroit
5. Ottawa
6. Florida
7. Montreal
8. Buffalo

Central:
1. Dallas
2. Colorado
3. St. Louis
4. Nashville
5. Winnipeg
6. Minnesota
7. Arizona
8. Chicago

Pacific:
1. Calgary
2. Los Angeles
3. Seattle
4. Edmonton
5. Vancouver
6. Vegas
7. Anaheim
8. San Jose

 

[Sleeping Dog]

Spent a good 10 minutes coming up with this; I'm fairly confident Detroit finds a way to sneak in.

Metro:
1. Carolina
2. Washington
3. Pittsburgh
4. Columbus
5. NYR
6. New Jersey
7. Philly
8. NYI

Atlantic:
1. Tampa Bay
2. Boston
3. Toronto
4. Detroit
5. Ottawa
6. Florida
7. Montreal
8. Buffalo

Central:
1. Dallas
2. Colorado
3. St. Louis
4. Nashville
5. Winnipeg
6. Minnesota
7. Arizona
8. Chicago

Pacific:
1. Calgary
2. Los Angeles
3. Seattle
4. Edmonton
5. Vancouver
6. Vegas
7. Anaheim
8. San Jose

I know this is tough to predict this early, but I can’t see NYR or FLA not making the playoffs.

 

[KingsHockey24]

I know this is tough to predict this early, but I can’t see NYR or FLA not making the playoffs.

Look at what Florida lost this Summer; have you seen their blueline?

I mean we went from winning the Cup to missing the playoffs. I very well see the same happening to both teams.

 

[kilowatt]

Look at what Florida lost this Summer; have you seen their blueline?

I mean we went from winning the Cup to missing the playoffs. I very well see the same happening to both teams.

Tkachuk-Barkov-Verhaeghe
Balcers-Bennett-Reinhart
Cousins-Lundell-White
Lomberg-Luo-Hornqvist

Forsling-Ekblad
Montour-Gudas
Staal-Carlsson

Bob
Knight

They look at least as strong as we do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Sol]

Which is the reason why most teams don't try to tank most of the time. The odds of getting the right one, two, maybe even three guys, at the same time, are low. So teams say, better to at least make the playoffs, where you never know, as opposed to get lost in the wilderness for a decade. Or, possibly more likely, you rebuild, but the best you do is pretty much where you were before you started rebuilding. You're just a younger version of that, which I guess is good, because it's younger.

Always keep in mind, the Kings were outside of the playoff picture the day they traded for Carter. With the 23rd most regulation wins. That's called a plan working.



The cap should go. If there's no cap, and you're not a big spending team, you get to rebuild every handful of years. You get a very short window where you might have a chance if everything comes together, but guys get too expensive, the big spenders start circling the waters, and then you rebuild again.

With the cap, it's inevitable that you get stuck with bad contracts. Because you have to spend that money on someone, and Toronto isn't there anymore to take your $7m 3rd liner who they'll put on their 4th line.

Which is why I am saying it’s too early to tell if the Kings are turning the corner or if they are about to experience a sharper decline whenever Kopitar and Doughty are gone. We don’t have anything close to replacing them from the draft from how it SEEMS. And if none of them come close to filling their shoes and it’s a good possibility they don’t, kings are going to be playing the lottery roulette for a while since none of the prospects look anything to close to draft Kopitar and draft day Doughty.

Unless they’re going to go with St Louis blues mentality where there are no great players just a good amount of good ones that all chip in.

However I don’t like that set up at all.

 

[johnjm22]

Spent a good 10 minutes coming up with this; I'm fairly confident Detroit finds a way to sneak in.

Atlantic:
1. Tampa Bay
2. Boston
3. Toronto
4. Detroit
5. Ottawa
6. Florida
7. Montreal
8. Buffalo

I think Buffalo will surprise a lot of people. FWIW, they were 5th in division this past season. Ahead of Detroit.

Sabres finished out the last two months of the season 16-9-3 (103pts pace).

They have a lot of players just starting to break through, or on the cusp of breaking through and they finally have a good coach.

Peterka, Quinn, Krebs and Power are all ready to be full time NHLers this season.

 

[Kingfan1967]

Look at what Florida lost this Summer; have you seen their blueline?

I mean we went from winning the Cup to missing the playoffs. I very well see the same happening to both teams.

Florida won the Presidents Trophy , LA was 11th in 2014 , 100 pts in2014 , 95 in 2015 missing the PO. Florida 122 pts in 2022 , would need to lose over 22 points ( or 4 times what LA lost ) to miss , highly unlikely .

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Florida won the Presidents Trophy , LA was 11th in 2014 , 100 pts in2014 , 95 in 2015 missing the PO. Florida 122 pts in 2022 , would need to lose over 22 points ( or 4 times what LA lost ) to miss , highly unlikely .

You're not wrong, but 2015 Kings were unlikely too. A Barkov injury isn't a stretch, nor is an Ekblad injury, plus they just lost Weegar. Their division's 'bad' teams will get better as well, plus they still have to fend off TBL and such.

 

[Stimpythecat]

Spent a good 10 minutes coming up with this; I'm fairly confident Detroit finds a way to sneak in.

Metro:
1. Carolina
2. Washington
3. Pittsburgh
4. Columbus
5. NYR
6. New Jersey
7. Philly
8. NYI

Atlantic:
1. Tampa Bay
2. Boston
3. Toronto
4. Detroit
5. Ottawa
6. Florida
7. Montreal
8. Buffalo

Central:
1. Dallas
2. Colorado
3. St. Louis
4. Nashville
5. Winnipeg
6. Minnesota
7. Arizona
8. Chicago

Pacific:
1. Calgary
2. Los Angeles
3. Seattle
4. Edmonton
5. Vancouver
6. Vegas
7. Anaheim
8. San Jose

I think you have Boston too high. They have a ton of injuries going into the season. They will miss some games.

Same with Washington. Two key injuries to Backstrom and Wilson.

I also can't see Seattle making that jump nor Edmonton falling that much.

Florida?

 

[KingsHockey24]

There's always 3-4 teams that unexpectedly make the playoffs and teams that are sure locks that miss.

People usually make predictions for the standings wayy too conservative based on the season prior.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I agree with you. I just disagree with the binary "go for it/tank" mindset, there's a lot of grey area where you're a team on the uprise, downswing, etc.

I think this whole convo started with Calgary, who was very clearly at the end of their rope with all their important vets departing and few impact youth on the way. No, maybe they shouldn't tank, but they should certainly exercise more caution than giving Huberdeau a suitcase full of cash immediately.

I think to some degree I get it becasue he 'replaces" Johnny Hockey, but if you weren't good enough with Tkachuk and everyone having basically career years, why would you suddenly be good enough with Weegar and Huberdeau, who are choke artists themselves?

TB also got swept by Columbus. Same team that got shut out in Games 6 and 7 in the 3rd rd the previous year. TB just wasn't good enough, until they were.

Even before Huberdeau, Calgary had real money invested in guys. They gave Markstrom a huge contract. They have a lot of guys signed through next season. Just gave Mangiapane a big deal. And they will have a lot of money to play with in the summer of 2024. Put together some good moves, and you're in the mix. A chance to be good enough.

Chicago is scorching the Earth because mid-30's Kane and Toews are in the last year of their deals, and they've essentially missed the playoffs for the last 5 consecutive years. Calgary hasn't been that bad yet. If ownership wants to be in the mix, what choice do you have?

Which is why I am saying it’s too early to tell if the Kings are turning the corner or if they are about to experience a sharper decline whenever Kopitar and Doughty are gone. We don’t have anything close to replacing them from the draft from how it SEEMS. And if none of them come close to filling their shoes and it’s a good possibility they don’t, kings are going to be playing the lottery roulette for a while since none of the prospects look anything to close to draft Kopitar and draft day Doughty.

Unless they’re going to go with St Louis blues mentality where there are no great players just a good amount of good ones that all chip in.

However I don’t like that set up at all.

But that got the Blues a Cup. Sure, they were the worst team in the league half way through that season, and Binnington was a miracle who hasn't come close to his 18-19 season since(they gave him an even worse contract than Petersen got, two years after winning the Cup, with worse numbers each season than he had in 18-19), but they got that Cup, so who cares how they did it?

Does the formula have to be exactly how it was before? The odds of getting Kopitar and Doughty at the same time are low. The Devils have never come close to getting another Stevens/Niedermayer/Brodeur trio, but you're not going to find that again.

Like DL wanted to build a new Detroit Red Wings circa 1994-2009. Constantly at the top of the league. Replacing talent every which way. One great retires, just insert the next HoF guy. Contention until forever. Multiple Cups across 15 years. But you're not going to build that. You can't set out to build an empire. They fall all the time. The ones that last just did stuff to stay around in the moment, things went their way, and they hung around a while longer. Detroit didn't know they were taking Henrik Zetterberg when they took Henrik Zetterberg.

 

[Sol]

TB also got swept by Columbus. Same team that got shut out in Games 6 and 7 in the 3rd rd the previous year. TB just wasn't good enough, until they were.

Even before Huberdeau, Calgary had real money invested in guys. They gave Markstrom a huge contract. They have a lot of guys signed through next season. Just gave Mangiapane a big deal. And they will have a lot of money to play with in the summer of 2024. Put together some good moves, and you're in the mix. A chance to be good enough.

Chicago is scorching the Earth because mid-30's Kane and Toews are in the last year of their deals, and they've essentially missed the playoffs for the last 5 consecutive years. Calgary hasn't been that bad yet. If ownership wants to be in the mix, what choice do you have?



But that got the Blues a Cup. Sure, they were the worst team in the league half way through that season, and Binnington was a miracle who hasn't come close to his 18-19 season since(they gave him an even worse contract than Petersen got, two years after winning the Cup, with worse numbers each season than he had in 18-19), but they got that Cup, so who cares how they did it?

Does the formula have to be exactly how it was before? The odds of getting Kopitar and Doughty at the same time are low. The Devils have never come close to getting another Stevens/Niedermayer/Brodeur trio, but you're not going to find that again.

Like DL wanted to build a new Detroit Red Wings circa 1994-2009. Constantly at the top of the league. Replacing talent every which way. One great retires, just insert the next HoF guy. Contention until forever. Multiple Cups across 15 years. But you're not going to build that. You can't set out to build an empire. They fall all the time. The ones that last just did stuff to stay around in the moment, things went their way, and they hung around a while longer. Detroit didn't know they were taking Henrik Zetterberg when they took Henrik Zetterberg.

You have any idea how rare it is for a team with no superstars to win? What you’re saying is just not a good formula for the long term if you think it’s okay to move forward with no superstars

 

[KingsFan7824]

You have any idea how rare it is for a team with no superstars to win? What you’re saying is just not a good formula for the long term if you think it’s okay to move forward with no superstars

But even Kopitar famously had that mentality; nobody has to be great, if everyone is good. Doughty is the one guy that had a superstar mentality, with the talent to back it up.

If it's unlikely that you'll find the perfect player at any given time, that's why most teams will choose to try and just make the playoffs most of the time. That's why Calgary signs Huberdeau. That's why they kept Iginla for a decade after making the Finals, even though they couldn't win. You've got 41 dates to sell tickets for. You're spending tens of millions on the rest of a roster. Unfortunately, it's a business. The only thing fans care about is championships, because we're the only side in this equation that not only gets no money, but has to pay money.

If you happen to get Crosby, then you've got some bigger expectations to live up to. But most teams don't have Crosby. Most drafts don't contain a Crosby. You still have a season to play though.

So the Kings don't have anyone to replace Kopitar and Doughty. Ok. Are they supposed to fold the franchise? Tank until they get that one guy? No #1 pick since 2015 has won the Cup. Most haven't gotten out of the 1st rd, if even that far. 2 top 5 picks since 2015 have won the Cup, last year, and that team had the #1 pick from 2013.

 

[Sol]

But even Kopitar famously had that mentality; nobody has to be great, if everyone is good. Doughty is the one guy that had a superstar mentality, with the talent to back it up.

If it's unlikely that you'll find the perfect player at any given time, that's why most teams will choose to try and just make the playoffs most of the time. That's why Calgary signs Huberdeau. That's why they kept Iginla for a decade after making the Finals, even though they couldn't win. You've got 41 dates to sell tickets for. You're spending tens of millions on the rest of a roster. Unfortunately, it's a business. The only thing fans care about is championships, because we're the only side in this equation that not only gets no money, but has to pay money.

If you happen to get Crosby, then you've got some bigger expectations to live up to. But most teams don't have Crosby. Most drafts don't contain a Crosby. You still have a season to play though.

So the Kings don't have anyone to replace Kopitar and Doughty. Ok. Are they supposed to fold the franchise? Tank until they get that one guy? No #1 pick since 2015 has won the Cup. Most haven't gotten out of the 1st rd, if even that far. 2 top 5 picks since 2015 have won the Cup, last year, and that team had the #1 pick from 2013.

I just don’t think this is true whatsoever. Even the teams the Kings won with had once superstars in it.

Carter, Richards, Gaborik. And tie in a superstar above them which is Kopitar and Doughty.

You simply need superstars to win big in the NHL. The concepts of many regular stars in the NHL cohesively coming up big and winning is very rare. You’d be hard pressed to find a team like that in the last like 12-13 years that has won without superstars. Only the Blues.

 

[johnjm22]

There's always 3-4 teams that unexpectedly make the playoffs and teams that are sure locks that miss.

People usually make predictions for the standings wayy too conservative based on the season prior.

You're right about that, but I don't see why Dallas or Seattle would be so good next year.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

TB also got swept by Columbus. Same team that got shut out in Games 6 and 7 in the 3rd rd the previous year. TB just wasn't good enough, until they were.

TBL had everyone in their prime without departures and didn't have an outlier offensive season from practically the whole roster.

I think you're trying to hard to paint it as binary, and you're not doing much to disprove that thought.

I get what you're saying re: ownership views though so if that's the line you're drawing I'm for it.

 

[KingsHockey24]

You're right about that, but I don't see why Dallas or Seattle would be so good next year.

Robertson already showed he can score 40+ goals, odds are Benn and Seguin score more than 40 points this season and bounce back, Hintz is a beast, Marchment is a great add, and we all saw what Oettinger can do in the playoffs.

For Seattle they play in the weakest division in the NHL and with some big additions this Summer with Bjorkstrand and Burakovsky I expect them to surprise a lot of people.

 

[KINGS17]

The cap should go. If there's no cap, and you're not a big spending team, you get to rebuild every handful of years. You get a very short window where you might have a chance if everything comes together, but guys get too expensive, the big spenders start circling the waters, and then you rebuild again.

With the cap, it's inevitable that you get stuck with bad contracts. Because you have to spend that money on someone, and Toronto isn't there anymore to take your $7m 3rd liner who they'll put on their 4th line.

If the cap is not in place you end up with the Colorado / Detroit BS we endured for years. The salary cap is here to stay, thankfully.

You don't get stuck with bad contracts, if you have a smart GM that is ruthless.

 

[KINGS17]

The Kings need a GM like this:

Son, we live in a world that has good teams, and mediocre teams with bad contracts. These player contracts have to be negotiated by men with guts.

Who's gonna do it? You Doughty fan boy? You, Kopitar fan boy? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep over the Kopitar trade and you curse the GM. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that trading Kopitar, while tragic, probably changes the culture and wins games. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins games!

You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at draft parties, you want me negotiating that contract or making that trade. You need me on that negotiation. We use words like "culture", "team", "performance". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent building and maintaining a contending team. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a fan who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the contending team that I provide, and then QUESTIONS the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way to buy the jersey of the new player I just acquired. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a phone, and make a good trade or negotiate a tough contract. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you are entitled to!

...and the salary cap stays!

 

[lumbergh]

The Kings need a GM like this:

Son, we live in a world that has good teams, and mediocre teams with bad contracts. These player contracts have to be negotiated by men with guts.

Who's gonna do it? You Doughty fan boy? You, Kopitar fan boy? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep over the Kopitar trade and you curse the GM. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that trading Kopitar, while tragic, probably changes the culture and wins games. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins games!

You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at draft parties, you want me negotiating that contract or making that trade. You need me on that negotiation. We use words like "culture", "team", "performance". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent building and maintaining a contending team. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a fan who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the contending team that I provide, and then QUESTIONS the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way to buy the jersey of the new player I just acquired. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a phone, and make a good trade or negotiate a tough contract. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you are entitled to!

...and the salary cap stays!

Post of the year. Right here. Nobody else even bother.

 

[johnjm22]

Robertson already showed he can score 40+ goals, odds are Benn and Seguin score more than 40 points this season and bounce back, Hintz is a beast, Marchment is a great add, and we all saw what Oettinger can do in the playoffs.

Their roster is the same as last year plus MM and minus Klingberg.

98 point team last year. I don't really see how they'll be any better (or worse).

For Seattle they play in the weakest division in the NHL and with some big additions this Summer with Bjorkstrand and Burakovsky I expect them to surprise a lot of people.

Hakstol IMO is a really poor coach.

They lost Gio, add Bjork and Burkovsky which are nice adds, but enough to take a .366 team to the playoffs?