Around the League Thread part V

[Lt Dan]

I'm happy it was Brownie but man how close was Kopitar to an all-time highlight reel on that first clip?

It looks like he was trying the same move that worked in the 3rd clip

p.s. WHAT A SAVE BY TANEV!!!

 

[riznat]

Damn that team was so much fun to watch, we will never see another LA team like that again sadly. I am just happy I got to watch every second of it, every game was electric.

 

[unicornpig]

Even if the kings did trade kopitar, what would they have gotten for him, those player/players wouldn't even fit the window of this rebuild anyway. Some people love to bitch just to bitch

 

[bland]

Even if the kings did trade kopitar, what would they have gotten for him, those player/players wouldn't even fit the window of this rebuild anyway. Some people love to bitch just to bitch

Well, if you did trade Kopitar before the extension you wouldn't be looking at the same team right now, would you?

That is the entire point. The rebuild would have started four years earlier and the picks, prospects and veteran acquisitions would all likely be quite different. And four years further ahead of now. Its been 8 years without a playoff series win. Would you have taken that if you knew it was the most likely scenario?

Did you think nothing at all would have changed other than one player? Sure seems like it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Well, if you did trade Kopitar before the extension you wouldn't be looking at the same team right now, would you?

That is the entire point. The rebuild would have started four years earlier and the picks, prospects and veteran acquisitions would all likely be quite different. And four years further ahead of now. Its been 8 years without a playoff series win. Would you have taken that if you knew it was the most likely scenario?

Did you think nothing at all would have changed other than one player? Sure seems like it.

There's also no evidence or way to know if things would have been any different from a results standpoint either, though.

I think it's fair to say you wanted to rebuild earlier, but it's nothing but speculation that the butterfly effect would have us in a better place now. Different? Abosolutely.

 

[Kudelski37]

Well, if you did trade Kopitar before the extension you wouldn't be looking at the same team right now, would you?

That is the entire point. The rebuild would have started four years earlier and the picks, prospects and veteran acquisitions would all likely be quite different. And four years further ahead of now. Its been 8 years without a playoff series win. Would you have taken that if you knew it was the most likely scenario?

Did you think nothing at all would have changed other than one player? Sure seems like it.

Due to the trades for Sekera and Lucic, the Kings didn't have 2015 or 2016 first rounders. Any trade of Kopitar would not get McDavid or Matthews. At best, the Kings would be where the Devil's are.

If you want to go back in time in the DL era, the single best move is not trading for Lucic. Barzal or Connor would have been pretty helpful the last 5 years. We wouldn't be talking about wasting the vets like Kopitar and Doughty. Most knew that trade was horrible if the Kings did not win the cup that year due to the price...even more than those that argued against extending Kopitar.

 

[bland]

Due to the trades for Sekera and Lucic, the Kings didn't have 2015 or 2016 first rounders. Any trade of Kopitar would not get McDavid or Matthews. At best, the Kings would be where the Devil's are.

If you want to go back in time in the DL era, the single best move is not trading for Lucic. Barzal or Connor would have been pretty helpful the last 5 years. We wouldn't be talking about wasting the vets like Kopitar and Doughty. Most knew that trade was horrible if the Kings did not win the cup that year due to the price...even more than those that argued against extending Kopitar.

Absolutely, I couldn't believe that Lombardi made that deal. There was no realistic way Lucic could be re-signed, it was a ridiculous waste of assets for a rental.

The Sekera trade made perfect sense though. They were a quality defenseman short and Sekera fit the Kings style of play like a glove. Every single one of else felt that they were going to contend again if they got in, but Sekera got hurt early and the team couldn't get over. It was worth that shot.

But by the end of 15-16 it was perfectly clear that they no longer had the tools to compete at that level. They lost everybody with nothing in return. The rules changed to emphasize the new standard of play were taking hold and teams that relied on neutral zone defending were losing ground. Richards, Voynov, Mitchell, Greene, Stoll, Williams, all heart and soul players aging out. There just wasn't enough left, but the cap was filling up just to retain a portion of those Cup winning teams. The team was too thin, they tired of Sutter, it was a decidedly negative tone around the franchise and it wasn't going to improve by maintaining the status quo.

The reason Kopitar is the focal point here has nothing to do with him as a player or person. Its only because his contract was ending just as it became readily apparent that the window was closed. The situation called for considering all of the options, and due to the circumstances surrounding the franchise, a rebuild was inevitable. There was no way around it.

And it proved out exactly as forecasted. 6 years in and the Kings have two first round losses and four years out entirely. They DID rebuild, but only after the new GM tried like hell to win with the same wrong formula and luckily lost out on Pacioretty. They tried Cammalleri and failed. They tried Kovalchuk and failed. Both had no chance of succeeding, and both were based on trying to win now again and again despite not having the tools necessary to success.

The folks who keep getting all upset about this subject always choose to ignore that the team was going to suffer whether they re-signed Anze or not. He himself is actually irrelevant to the point. The team took longer to make the changes they needed to make than they could have - and I would argue that they should have recognized that reality sooner than they did. And their subsequent developmental decisions sure show that this management team never really wanted to embrace those changes.

This team hasn't contended with Kopitar in 8 years. They most likely wouldn't have contended in the first 75% of that timeframe if they began the rebuild at that time, but realize that it is the same group of people in charge, so if you doubt their ability to rebuild successfully without Kopitar, its disingenuous to assume that they would somehow be more likely to rebuild successfully with him. And thus far they haven't.

 

[bland]

There's also no evidence or way to know if things would have been any different from a results standpoint either, though.

I think it's fair to say you wanted to rebuild earlier, but it's nothing but speculation that the butterfly effect would have us in a better place now. Different? Abosolutely.

Of course. Nothing is guaranteed ever, but all the extension did was extend the period of organizational denial before reality struck them. There was always going to be a rebuild, just took longer to happen because of the respect they gave the core.

I fault this management group for the reverence they give those players at the expense of progress. I don't think we are going to argue about that, but for some reason the conversation always turns stoopid when the clowns chime in.

 

[redcard]

It looks like he was trying the same move that worked in the 3rd clip

p.s. WHAT A SAVE BY TANEV!!!

I played the video without sound and could still hear it, greatest save of Tanev's career.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Absolutely, I couldn't believe that Lombardi made that deal. There was no realistic way Lucic could be re-signed, it was a ridiculous waste of assets for a rental.

The Sekera trade made perfect sense though. They were a quality defenseman short and Sekera fit the Kings style of play like a glove. Every single one of else felt that they were going to contend again if they got in, but Sekera got hurt early and the team couldn't get over. It was worth that shot.

But by the end of 15-16 it was perfectly clear that they no longer had the tools to compete at that level. They lost everybody with nothing in return. The rules changed to emphasize the new standard of play were taking hold and teams that relied on neutral zone defending were losing ground. Richards, Voynov, Mitchell, Greene, Stoll, Williams, all heart and soul players aging out. There just wasn't enough left, but the cap was filling up just to retain a portion of those Cup winning teams. The team was too thin, they tired of Sutter, it was a decidedly negative tone around the franchise and it wasn't going to improve by maintaining the status quo.

The reason Kopitar is the focal point here has nothing to do with him as a player or person. Its only because his contract was ending just as it became readily apparent that the window was closed. The situation called for considering all of the options, and due to the circumstances surrounding the franchise, a rebuild was inevitable. There was no way around it.

And it proved out exactly as forecasted. 6 years in and the Kings have two first round losses and four years out entirely. They DID rebuild, but only after the new GM tried like hell to win with the same wrong formula and luckily lost out on Pacioretty. They tried Cammalleri and failed. They tried Kovalchuk and failed. Both had no chance of succeeding, and both were based on trying to win now again and again despite not having the tools necessary to success.

The folks who keep getting all upset about this subject always choose to ignore that the team was going to suffer whether they re-signed Anze or not. He himself is actually irrelevant to the point. The team took longer to make the changes they needed to make than they could have - and I would argue that they should have recognized that reality sooner than they did. And their subsequent developmental decisions sure show that this management team never really wanted to embrace those changes.

This team hasn't contended with Kopitar in 8 years. They most likely wouldn't have contended in the first 75% of that timeframe if they began the rebuild at that time, but realize that it is the same group of people in charge, so if you doubt their ability to rebuild successfully without Kopitar, its disingenuous to assume that they would somehow be more likely to rebuild successfully with him. And thus far they haven't.

You couldn't believe DL tried to take advantage of Kopitar's last good contract year? They still had 2 Cups in the last 4 years.

On the day Kopitar re-signed, 43 games into a season, the Kings were 4th overall in pts%. They had an 8pt lead over the Coyotes, and a 12pt lead over the eventual division winning Ducks.

Those two realities, DL wasn't trading Kopitar at the 2015 draft, and they were too high in the standings when he re-signed, afford the Kings 0 actual opportunity to trade him, outside of the theory that it would be a good idea. The folks who keep bringing up how the Kings should've traded Kopitar always choose to ignore reality.

Maybe if they didn't win in 2014, which they could've done, and probaly should've done, just by happenstance, any number of times in those playoffs, and have their 14-15 season, Kopitar gets traded coming off what at the time was a career worst season. That's then 3 years away from the Cup, instead of 1. Maybe if the Kings had their 18-19 season in 15-16, and were the worst team in the league on Jan 16, 2016, they get rid of him. That's the worst overall team, not the 4th best.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

You couldn't believe DL tried to take advantage of Kopitar's last good contract year? They still had 2 Cups in the last 4 years.

On the day Kopitar re-signed, 43 games into a season, the Kings were 4th overall in pts%. They had an 8pt lead over the Coyotes, and a 12pt lead over the eventual division winning Ducks.

Those two realities, DL wasn't trading Kopitar at the 2015 draft, and they were too high in the standings when he re-signed, afford the Kings 0 actual opportunity to trade him, outside of the theory that it would be a good idea. The folks who keep bringing up how the Kings should've traded Kopitar always choose to ignore reality.

Maybe if they didn't win in 2014, which they could've done, and probaly should've done, just by happenstance, any number of times in those playoffs, and have their 14-15 season, Kopitar gets traded coming off what at the time was a career worst season. That's then 3 years away from the Cup, instead of 1. Maybe if the Kings had their 18-19 season in 15-16, and were the worst team in the league on Jan 16, 2016, they get rid of him. That's the worst overall team, not the 4th best.

People post this shit like they are playing a video game -- should of traded this guy, should of signed this guy -- all thrown out crap like this transaction or that transaction could have easily been done without any hurdles or consequence. It's a clown show filled with clown theory.

As far as Kopitar goes, no organization trades away their #1 center who leads their team in points every year and has already brought then two cups. No organization...as in ZERO.

 

[lumbergh]

Zing!

Flames' Darryl Sutter gives hilariously cold answer comparing Tkachuk and Toffoli

Flames head coach Darryl Sutter was in fine form on Thursday.

sports.yahoo.com

Darryl Sutter is the Yogi Berra of hockey.

 

[Steve Zissou]

 

[ru4reals]

Sh*t the Bed Hard for Bedard. We got it this year. I can just feel it.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Sh*t the Bed Hard for Bedard. We got it this year. I can just feel it.

Yes, it would be the ‘right’ thing to do.

 

[KINGS17]

There's also no evidence or way to know if things would have been any different from a results standpoint either, though.

I think it's fair to say you wanted to rebuild earlier, but it's nothing but speculation that the butterfly effect would have us in a better place now. Different? Abosolutely.

Yes, anyone who was in favor of an earlier start to the rebuild should be able to alter the timeline by using their "Way Back" machine making the necessary changes and then proving it would have been better.

It's enough that this timeline worked out pretty much as several here said it would. The premise that we must come up with proof of an alternate reality which never had an opportunity to unfold is ridiculous.

 

[King'sPawn]

Yes, anyone who was in favor of an earlier start to the rebuild should be able to alter the timeline by using their "Way Back" machine making the necessary changes and then proving it would have been better.

It's enough that this timeline worked out pretty much as several here said it would. The premise that we must come up with proof of an alternate reality which never had an opportunity to unfold is ridiculous.

Except some of us have said Kopitar's contract wasn't the problem, and outlined many reasons why.

It's not the great flex you think it is to "predict the Kings wouldn't be cup contenders during Kopitar's contract." It's actually very difficult to compete for the cup. The biggest argument was always Kopitar being the cause. The organization was, and still is, flawed in enough ways that it's not easy.

And let's also look back at how the same people wanting to trade Kopitar have, back in 2016, said shit like Kopitar is (paraphrasing):
- a bad captain
- a soft euro
- a quitter
- not worth his contract (especially not to be compared with Toews)
- not that skilled

Let's also remember the argument of "no team has won the cup with a player taking double digit in cap hit." Want to say with confidence it will always be that way? Will Colorado not win the cup with MacKinnon's contract? Should they start the rebuild now and trade him? He's older than Kopitar when he won his first, and just as oldcas when Kopitar won his second cup.

You aren't the wise guru you think you are, which makes this smugness of "it happened exactly as we thought it would" to be hilarious.

PS since we're not talking about stuff around the league anymore, can we just call it the "Why we should have traded Kopitar earlier?" thread?

 

[Faterson]

Czech govt. to NHL: Don't bring Russian players

This might be the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

On the contrary, it's the only proper thing to do. You'd be speaking differently if Russia invaded California, imposing their rule there, and keeping their troops in California for over 20 years.

The NHL (especially the Sharks!) can pack their belongings, go away and **** themselves if they don't respect the host country's rules. Like Djokovic was allowed to enter the US to play at the US Open, right? I trust that Finland will enforce similar rules to the Czechs.

 

[KINGS17]

Except some of us have said Kopitar's contract wasn't the problem, and outlined many reasons why.

It's not the great flex you think it is to "predict the Kings wouldn't be cup contenders during Kopitar's contract." It's actually very difficult to compete for the cup. The biggest argument was always Kopitar being the cause. The organization was, and still is, flawed in enough ways that it's not easy.

And let's also look back at how the same people wanting to trade Kopitar have, back in 2016, said shit like Kopitar is (paraphrasing):
- a bad captain
- a soft euro
- a quitter
- not worth his contract (especially not to be compared with Toews)
- not that skilled

Let's also remember the argument of "no team has won the cup with a player taking double digit in cap hit." Want to say with confidence it will always be that way? Will Colorado not win the cup with MacKinnon's contract? Should they start the rebuild now and trade him? He's older than Kopitar when he won his first, and just as oldcas when Kopitar won his second cup.

You aren't the wise guru you think you are, which makes this smugness of "it happened exactly as we thought it would" to be hilarious.

PS since we're not talking about stuff around the league anymore, can we just call it the "Why we should have traded Kopitar earlier?" thread?

It's not smug to call a spade a spade. I would say any smugness here exists in those continuing to insist they were right when the results don't bear out their position.

...and my position was never a great flex, because what was going to happen, and what has happened was obvious. In this case, I was wise, because I could see the obvious that others couldn't admit due to their fandom.

I criticize Kopitar's play when his play deserves to be criticized. I have also praised his play when he is playing well. It's not that Kopitar wasn't worth his contract. His contract wasn't worth it to the Kings. He would have been a great fit on a contending team with issues at the center position.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Yes, anyone who was in favor of an earlier start to the rebuild should be able to alter the timeline by using their "Way Back" machine making the necessary changes and then proving it would have been better.

It's enough that this timeline worked out pretty much as several here said it would. The premise that we must come up with proof of an alternate reality which never had an opportunity to unfold is ridiculous.

Yet it's still a topic of conversation.

It's not smug to call a spade a spade. I would say any smugness here exists in those continuing to insist they were right when the results don't bear out their position.

...and my position was never a great flex, because what was going to happen, and what has happened was obvious. In this case, I was wise, because I could see the obvious that others couldn't admit due to their fandom.

I criticize Kopitar's play when his play deserves to be criticized. I have also praised his play when he is playing well. It's not that Kopitar wasn't worth his contract. His contract wasn't worth it to the Kings. He would have been a great fit on a contending team with issues at the center position.

Great, you were in favor of an earlier start to the rebuild. DL wasn't in 2015. And whatever grand strategy DL was concocting before Robitaille convinced whoever to go over DL and hand Kopitar a retirement contract, the Kings were still, in a year that DL was going for the Cup, sitting 4th overall in the league the day Kopitar re-signed.

They were not trading Kopitar between the 2015 draft and 2016 deadline. It has nothing to do with right, wrong, wise, could see the future, or blind fandom. Even if they didn't do it on Jan 16th, they were 6th overall on deadline day.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Yes, anyone who was in favor of an earlier start to the rebuild should be able to alter the timeline by using their "Way Back" machine making the necessary changes and then proving it would have been better.

It's enough that this timeline worked out pretty much as several here said it would. The premise that we must come up with proof of an alternate reality which never had an opportunity to unfold is ridiculous.

I'm not saying you have to have proof. I'm just saying that you can't assume it would be better because no one knows how it would have worked out.

Saying you're were in favor of an early rebuild with why = fine.

Saying you were in favor of an early rebuild because you guarantee we'd be in a better spot now is tarot card grade bullshit.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I'm not saying you have to have proof. I'm just saying that you can't assume it would be better because no one knows how it would have worked out.

Saying you're were in favor of an early rebuild with why = fine.

Saying you were in favor of an early rebuild because you guarantee we'd be in a better spot now is tarot card grade bullshit.

To be fair.....he saw this coming back in 96, as soon as LA traded Gretzky.....he knew that in 2016-2022 LA would be shit.....

I mean, shit he,s gone on record saying that in 2022-2032, 1 team will win the Stanley Cup right?.......with Nostradamus shit like that, he should be playing the lottery on a daily basis....

 

[Steve Zissou]

Couple of early pre-season tilts...



KO in this one:

 

[ru4reals]

Couple of early pre-season tilts...



KO in this one:

Enjoy the Fisticuffs while it lasts cuz once the season starts we'd be lucky to get one maybe two per month. LOL.

 

[YP44]

I am going full tank in a keeper league for Bedard haha