Around the League Thread part V

[GoldenBearHockey]

If their Cup window was definitively over after multiple wins, they had zero prospects or picks, were capped out, their entire real leadership group had left, and every other core player was already in their late 20s or older...

And MacKinnon was actually the quality of Landeskog, then yeah, you trade Landeskog instead of signing him into his late 30s.

Zero prospects or picks........and capped out......hmmmmmm....13 million in cap space year after next, with 13 players to sign...yep....capped out....

Prospects---- Olausson? Maybe....and 1st round pick in 2023 - 25-32? same in 24?

Every other core player was in late 20s? - Landeskog, 29, MacKinnon 27, Nischukin 27, Lehkonen, 27, Johnson 34, Manson, 30, Georgiev 26, Francouz 32....

Tell me again why Colorado would sign MacKinnon and not trade him???? I mean, it's literally the same thing you argued that LA should do with Kopitar.....the ONLY difference is....Doughty was 25, Makar is 23, and Toffoli was 21, Newhook is 21....

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I have seen some shit on this forum but even indirectly comparing Landeskog to Kopitar is almost more insulting than comparing him to RyJo.

What the actual f*** are you people smoking? Get a grip.

 

[bland]

Re-signing Kopitar at 37 is the same as locking up a 29-year-old #1 center.

Landeskog - 0.77 Career PPG winger, 0 Selkes

Kopitar - 0.88 Career PPG center, 2 Selkes

Not comparable players.

They are PERFECTLY comparable players. Same production, same effect on the team. Kopitar is more durable for certain due to playing less physically up the middle, but if you are hanging your hat on .11 ppg then your hat's getting stepped on all day. Check the playoff numbers and get back to me if you want to pretend numbers on the right side of the decimal actually mean anything.

Kopitar is the center equivalent of a Landeskog or Hossa, definitely never on MacKinnon's league. Anze has rarely been in the top 10 of his position. Why so many of you mess your undies over hearing that is beyond me. Its not an insult, its the reality of the situation.

Hockey nerds like us fall in love with the unsexy stuff Kopitar does. Its what we learned when we fell in love with the game, its what we think about when we argue with other fans and feel superior about our views, what we think we see that the common rabble doesn't. I appreciate everything - literally EVERYTHING Kopitar has done for the Kings, I just don't overrate him. He is not a top-tier player, he is just under that level with an incredible consistency and durability. He is a B+ player, always has been. And the Kings have been lucky to have him, but they over-committed to their detriment.

 

[lumbergh]

If their Cup window was definitively over after multiple wins, they had zero prospects or picks, were capped out, their entire real leadership group had left, and every other core player was already in their late 20s or older...

And MacKinnon was actually the quality of Landeskog, then yeah, you trade Landeskog instead of signing him into his late 30s.

It’s okay to admit that the two situations are quite similar.

 

[YAYSAY]

They are PERFECTLY comparable players. Same production, same effect on the team. Kopitar is more durable for certain due to playing less physically up the middle, but if you are hanging your hat on .11 ppg then your hat's getting stepped on all day. Check the playoff numbers and get back to me if you want to pretend numbers on the right side of the decimal actually mean anything.

Kopitar is the center equivalent of a Landeskog or Hossa, definitely never on MacKinnon's league. Anze has rarely been in the top 10 of his position. Why so many of you mess your undies over hearing that is beyond me. Its not an insult, its the reality of the situation.

Hockey nerds like us fall in love with the unsexy stuff Kopitar does. Its what we learned when we fell in love with the game, its what we think about when we argue with other fans and feel superior about our views, what we think we see that the common rabble doesn't. I appreciate everything - literally EVERYTHING Kopitar has done for the Kings, I just don't overrate him. He is not a top-tier player, he is just under that level with an incredible consistency and durability. He is a B+ player, always has been. And the Kings have been lucky to have him, but they over-committed to their detriment.

Kopitar has rarely been in the top 10 of his position? Isn't he the same player that other players around the NHL have consistently ranked him as one of the toughest people to play against for years consistently? He's inarguably a first ballot HOF entry, that doesn't happen to B+ players.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Kopitar's career and production is comparable to some Hall of Fame players, but he's a B+ player?

Anže Kopitar Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Anže Kopitar. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

I wonder if Boston Bruins fans dislike Patrice Bergeron as much as certain fans here dislike Anze Kopitar.

 

[redcard]

They are PERFECTLY comparable players. Same production, same effect on the team. Kopitar is more durable for certain due to playing less physically up the middle, but if you are hanging your hat on .11 ppg then your hat's getting stepped on all day. Check the playoff numbers and get back to me if you want to pretend numbers on the right side of the decimal actually mean anything.

Kopitar is the center equivalent of a Landeskog or Hossa, definitely never on MacKinnon's league. Anze has rarely been in the top 10 of his position. Why so many of you mess your undies over hearing that is beyond me. Its not an insult, its the reality of the situation.

Hockey nerds like us fall in love with the unsexy stuff Kopitar does. Its what we learned when we fell in love with the game, its what we think about when we argue with other fans and feel superior about our views, what we think we see that the common rabble doesn't. I appreciate everything - literally EVERYTHING Kopitar has done for the Kings, I just don't overrate him. He is not a top-tier player, he is just under that level with an incredible consistency and durability. He is a B+ player, always has been. And the Kings have been lucky to have him, but they over-committed to their detriment.

When the player with 2 Selkes has the 0.11 Career PPG over the player with 0 Selkes they are not comparable players.

 

[bland]

Kopitar has rarely been in the top 10 of his position? Isn't he the same player that other players around the NHL have consistently ranked him as one of the toughest people to play against for years consistently? He's inarguably a first ballot HOF entry, that doesn't happen to B+ players.

Sure it does, if they are from Slovenia. He deserves to get in because he is a hell of a player and the first from his country to reach that level. He has had an outstanding career, especially for a player from a non-traditional market.

And there are plenty of B+ players in the HHOF who had noted careers that aren't stat-based. Anze, and we, can be incredibly proud of his career and celebrate his accomplishments for what they were without getting silly about it and claiming its more than what it was - very, very good, but never "great".

 

[bland]

Kopitar's career and production is comparable to some Hall of Fame players, but he's a B+ player?

Anže Kopitar Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Anže Kopitar. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

I wonder if Boston Bruins fans dislike Patrice Bergeron as much as certain fans here dislike Anze Kopitar.

I wonder if you are claiming Bergeron is a "star".

He's not, never has been, but he is in the exact same range as Kopitar and Toews. I would be thrilled to have any of them in their prime, but what exactly have they been doing at the same stage of their careers to make their teams contenders? Its a similar situation for all three - and all three would get my vote for the HHOF but no way in hell would I have extended any of them in the Kings situation because it was bad business. And it has proven to be ineffective in all three cases.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I wonder if you are claiming Bergeron is a "star".

He's not, never has been, but he is in the exact same range as Kopitar and Toews. I would be thrilled to have any of them in their prime, but what exactly have they been doing at the same stage of their careers to make their teams contenders? Its a similar situation for all three - and all three would get my vote for the HHOF but no way in hell would I have extended any of them in the Kings situation because it was bad business. And it has proven to be ineffective in all three cases.

I think the common theme you’ll notice is bad management decisions set all of those teams back more so than retaining their respective #1 centers. The Kings and Bruins shared quite a few blunders with that 2015 draft day. And how much did Boston benefit from trading Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton?

Chicago just got rid of their best goal scorer and a young center who was their highest drafted player in years, we’ll have to wait a few years before we see just how much those decisions will pay off for them, but they’re going to be a floundering team for many, many years.

 

[KINGS17]

I have seen some shit on this forum but even indirectly comparing Landeskog to Kopitar is almost more insulting than comparing him to RyJo.

What the actual f*** are you people smoking? Get a grip.

No one ever said RyJo would be the only thing coming back to the Kings in a deal. Many of you act as if that was the only possibility mentioned when in fact many were discussed.

 

[YAYSAY]

I wonder if you are claiming Bergeron is a "star".

He's not, never has been, but he is in the exact same range as Kopitar and Toews. I would be thrilled to have any of them in their prime, but what exactly have they been doing at the same stage of their careers to make their teams contenders? Its a similar situation for all three - and all three would get my vote for the HHOF but no way in hell would I have extended any of them in the Kings situation because it was bad business. And it has proven to be ineffective in all three cases.

Bergeron is absolutely a star, what are you smoking? He's won like what, 5 selkes? How is he not a star?

 

[Sparky206]

I wonder if you are claiming Bergeron is a "star".

He's not, never has been, but he is in the exact same range as Kopitar and Toews. I would be thrilled to have any of them in their prime, but what exactly have they been doing at the same stage of their careers to make their teams contenders? Its a similar situation for all three - and all three would get my vote for the HHOF but no way in hell would I have extended any of them in the Kings situation because it was bad business. And it has proven to be ineffective in all three cases.

Mannnnnn,

He won two cups as a 1C, he led the team in scoring both years, led the team in scoring for some ridiculous amount of years thats up there with Gretzky, won 2 selkes while leading the team in scoring. A bees dick off a heart trophy.

Hes a star and has been for 15 years. He might not be as marketable as a Crosby or Ovetchkin but he equals them both with his importance to their respective teams. Without Kopitar there are no cups and were probably into our 4th rebuild since 2006. He is the single most important player in the history of the kings, any success this franchise has had hinges directly off him and that pick in 2005.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Any team with a top 3 pick in the last 5-6 drafts would be doing backflips if their selections turned into B+ players like Kopitar or Bergeron.

 

[unicornpig]

Kopitar's career and production is comparable to some Hall of Fame players, but he's a B+ player?

Anže Kopitar Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Anže Kopitar. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

I wonder if Boston Bruins fans dislike Patrice Bergeron as much as certain fans here dislike Anze Kopitar.

they dont...they have some common sense.

 

[Herby]

No Boldy on that list?

Also, I think the Sabres have a lot of potential breakout candidates. People are sleeping on that team. I don't think they're going to be great, but they're going to be a lot better than people think.

Agree on the Sabres. I think they could use another scorer but the goaltending is set long-term and Power and Dahlin are obv very good.

I definitely think Boldy could have a big year, I think maybe for the breakout they factored in guys taking a big step offensively and Boldy kind of did. He scored at what a 65 point pace? Do we think he can get to 75-80 next year? I am not so sure.

Guys like Stutzle and Caufield had huge second half’s after their situations improved but didn’t blow the doors off over a full season. It wouldn’t shock me if Stutzle has 80+ points and Caufield is a 40-35 type guy himself. So I think that is why they are in a breakthrough and Boldy isn’t.

I wonder if you are claiming Bergeron is a "star".

He's not, never has been, but he is in the exact same range as Kopitar and Toews. I would be thrilled to have any of them in their prime, but what exactly have they been doing at the same stage of their careers to make their teams contenders? Its a similar situation for all three - and all three would get my vote for the HHOF but no way in hell would I have extended any of them in the Kings situation because it was bad business. And it has proven to be ineffective in all three cases.

Bergeron is absolutely 100% a star. He is the best defensive forward of his era, and it’s not even close, just like with Lidstrom and the Norris, he could have won the Selke for about 10 straight years.

I just don’t know how you can minimize guys like Kopitar and Bergeron and their contributions to championship teams but then place so much of the credit for the Kings championships to Mike Richards, who couldn’t hold Kopitar’s jock.

Kopitar is not a B+ player, I watch almost all Kings games on the opponents feed and hear what everyone says about him. The other players, the coaches, the broadcasters, the analysts (most of which played against Kopitar). He is universally considered one of the best two-way players in the NHL in the last decade and a half. And had he been with an organization that didn’t disregard adding talented players his offensive numbers would have been much higher.

I think many fans here have a ridiculous dislike of Kopitar because of what he is today, and yes, he no longer is a 1C in the NHL. But it’s not his fault that two different GM’s have had well over a decade and numerous high picks to draft his replacement and haven’t been able to. Kopi should be able to be playing a 2nd line role as a solid all-around pro finishing up his career but the Kings laughably bad drafting results have him still as the 1C. Not his fault!

 

[Rick Knickleback]

So much of all this comes from a certain faction of fans, observant ones too, generally, not believing Kopitar could ever lead the Kings to a Cup. He then led them to two, in genuinely great fashion, and became a star. It would’ve been easy to simply say, “Didn’t know had Kopi had it in him. Good for him proving me wrong.”

 

[Herby]

So much of all this comes from a certain faction of fans, observant ones too, generally, not believing Kopitar could ever lead the Kings to a Cup. He then led them to two, in genuinely great fashion, and became a star. It would’ve been easy to simply say, “Didn’t know had Kopi had it in him. Good for him proving me wrong.”

They just give most of the credit to the secondary pieces, which is funny because those secondary pieces would never have won as the key pieces. It would be like giving AK credit if he went to Pittsburgh and won there in a secondary role. And those guys do deserve some of the credit, but those championships were won with 11-8-32 as the huge pieces + Brown having one of the all-time under the radar dominant playoff runs in 2012.

 

[johnjm22]

Agree on the Sabres. I think they could use another scorer but the goaltending is set long-term and Power and Dahlin are obv very good.

I definitely think Boldy could have a big year, I think maybe for the breakout they factored in guys taking a big step offensively and Boldy kind of did. He scored at what a 65 point pace? Do we think he can get to 75-80 next year? I am not so sure.

Guys like Stutzle and Caufield had huge second half’s after their situations improved but didn’t blow the doors off over a full season. It wouldn’t shock me if Stutzle has 80+ points and Caufield is a 40-35 type guy himself. So I think that is why they are in a breakthrough and Boldy isn’t.

I mean Caulfield already broke the 20 goal / 40 point barrier. Was already a significant contributor on a SC run. Scored at basically at a 30 goal pace this past season. If him and Sutzle (58pts) aren't disqualified, Boldy certainly shouldn't be.

Boldy hasn't hit the 20 goal barrier, or 40 point mark yet. With Fiala out he'll certainly have a big role. Everything is lined up for him to have a big break out.

 

[KINGS17]

They just give most of the credit to the secondary pieces, which is funny because those secondary pieces would never have won as the key pieces. It would be like giving AK credit if he went to Pittsburgh and won there in a secondary role. And those guys do deserve some of the credit, but those championships were won with 11-8-32 as the huge pieces + Brown having one of the all-time under the radar dominant playoff runs in 2012.

I have to disagree. It is true during the cup runs Kopitar was at the top of the scoring chart for the Kings. He was not very good in 2013, and those supporting players were the ones who got the Kings to the Western Conference Final.

In 2012 he was great as was Brown. They each had 8 goals and 12 assists. If not for Quick and his stellar play in the early rounds, Kopitar probably wins the Conn Smythe.

In 2014 he was the club's leading scorer with 5 goals and 21 assists for 26 points. That was a great and needed contribution, but I think the contributions of Williams and Gaborik, and I would say especially Gaborik with 14 goals and 8 assists, were even bigger contributions. Almost every goal by Williams was in a clutch situation. When it came to Gaborik, most of the time when the Kings needed a goal to tie it or win it late in the game, he was the man.

This why I believe Kopitar was a key piece, but he could not have done it without the quality supporting cast he had on the Kings during those years. I also think, and this is just my opinion, that he lacked the assassin-like attitude the biggest stars have in the offensive zone. Knowing how imposing Kopitar could be with his size and talent, he just didn't impose his will in the offensive zone enough. For example, the power play has almost always been when he takes a break.

Again, me advocating Kopitar be moved prior to signing his last deal had nothing to do with his days as a 1C being over, but was based on the Kings no longer being contenders, and that they would not contend over the entire length of his contract. I still think this will be the case. If it turns out as predicted, then why sign the deal and not receive younger and future assets for him?

...and before some come in and ask for details on exactly who or what the Kings would have received, my answer is I can't tell you how the Kopitar trade tree would have worked out and where the Kings would be in terms of being contenders today. I can tell you they still are not contenders now, and I don't think they will be before his deal is done.

 

[Steve Zissou]

 

[Bandit]

Poor guy. What's the point of living if you don't enjoy life?

 

[KingsFan7824]

Again, me advocating Kopitar be moved prior to signing his last deal had nothing to do with his days as a 1C being over, but was based on the Kings no longer being contenders, and that they would not contend over the entire length of his contract. I still think this will be the case. If it turns out as predicted, then why sign the deal and not receive younger and future assets for him?

...and before some come in and ask for details on exactly who or what the Kings would have received, my answer is I can't tell you how the Kopitar trade tree would have worked out and where the Kings would be in terms of being contenders today. I can tell you they still are not contenders now, and I don't think they will be before his deal is done.

Forget what you get for him. When is the trade happening? Not after 2014, as they're defending champs, going for 3 in 4, and he's got 2 good contract years left. 2015? Maybe there's a window. However, as far as we know, DL showed no signs of trading him, and obviously doubled down on Kopitar's last good contract year. Then, the day he re-signed, the Kings are a top 5 overall team, in the year that DL doubled down on, so he's not being traded then, and at best walks in the summer for no younger and future assets in return.

There is no realistic moment to trade him, other than when we have no public evidence that DL even thought about it. How are you still pining for this?

If DL didn't get Lucic, Lecavalier, Versteeg, etc, and went into Kopitar's last year not trying to compete, and plays hardball with the contract, and tries to make the team a non-playoff team so he could deal him at the deadline, I could buy he was some anti-3rd Kopitar contract guy. He didn't even get rid of anyone else from the Cup treams up through 16-17 until trading King. Then still brought in Iginla and Bishop for a run to a playoff spot.

DL did not build the TB Lightning. He did not build the Red Wings or Yankees. They should've lost 1,000 different times in 2014. Struggled to get to the 3rd rd in 2013, then got smoked. Were on their way to no playoffs in 2012 until luckily Carter was available.

If Kopitar is a B+ player, then the Golden Age Kings were a B+ champ, who were re-signing guys to bad contracts just days after the 2012 Cup, let alone in 2016 or 2018. Out of a 3 year span, they were dominant for 2 months. Maybe 3. That's not elite. It's pretty good, but not great.

 

[Rick Knickleback]

I have to disagree. It is true during the cup runs Kopitar was at the top of the scoring chart for the Kings. He was not very good in 2013, and those supporting players were the ones who got the Kings to the Western Conference Final.

In 2012 he was great as was Brown. They each had 8 goals and 12 assists. If not for Quick and his stellar play in the early rounds, Kopitar probably wins the Conn Smythe.

In 2014 he was the club's leading scorer with 5 goals and 21 assists for 26 points. That was a great and needed contribution, but I think the contributions of Williams and Gaborik, and I would say especially Gaborik with 14 goals and 8 assists, were even bigger contributions. Almost every goal by Williams was in a clutch situation. When it came to Gaborik, most of the time when the Kings needed a goal to tie it or win it late in the game, he was the man.

This why I believe Kopitar was a key piece, but he could not have done it without the quality supporting cast he had on the Kings during those years. I also think, and this is just my opinion, that he lacked the assassin-like attitude the biggest stars have in the offensive zone. Knowing how imposing Kopitar could be with his size and talent, he just didn't impose his will in the offensive zone enough. For example, the power play has almost always been when he takes a break.

Again, me advocating Kopitar be moved prior to signing his last deal had nothing to do with his days as a 1C being over, but was based on the Kings no longer being contenders, and that they would not contend over the entire length of his contract. I still think this will be the case. If it turns out as predicted, then why sign the deal and not receive younger and future assets for him?

...and before some come in and ask for details on exactly who or what the Kings would have received, my answer is I can't tell you how the Kopitar trade tree would have worked out and where the Kings would be in terms of being contenders today. I can tell you they still are not contenders now, and I don't think they will be before his deal is done.

This is reasonable analysis, much more than "Kopitar is a B+ player." I certainly agree he got paid too much at the end of his prime, though these things don't take place in a vacuum. Aaron Judge is gonna get paid too, at the age of 31. So it goes. I do not think it precluded the Kings from assembling a better supporting cast around him and/or developing top line talent to supplant him.

I do think he was great in 2014 though. Dominated the Sharks, bested Getzlaf, and went toe to toe with Toews. He was largely invisible against NYR, but 1) he had just beaten prime Thornton, Getlzaf, and Toews and 2) against the Rangers, he had the most ice time among forwards by a country mile in a series we dominated. He was not--to use the term so often applied to him back then by some--a "passenger."

 

[lumbergh]

I have to disagree. It is true during the cup runs Kopitar was at the top of the scoring chart for the Kings. He was not very good in 2013, and those supporting players were the ones who got the Kings to the Western Conference Final.

In 2012 he was great as was Brown. They each had 8 goals and 12 assists. If not for Quick and his stellar play in the early rounds, Kopitar probably wins the Conn Smythe.

In 2014 he was the club's leading scorer with 5 goals and 21 assists for 26 points. That was a great and needed contribution, but I think the contributions of Williams and Gaborik, and I would say especially Gaborik with 14 goals and 8 assists, were even bigger contributions. Almost every goal by Williams was in a clutch situation. When it came to Gaborik, most of the time when the Kings needed a goal to tie it or win it late in the game, he was the man.

This why I believe Kopitar was a key piece, but he could not have done it without the quality supporting cast he had on the Kings during those years. I also think, and this is just my opinion, that he lacked the assassin-like attitude the biggest stars have in the offensive zone. Knowing how imposing Kopitar could be with his size and talent, he just didn't impose his will in the offensive zone enough. For example, the power play has almost always been when he takes a break.

Again, me advocating Kopitar be moved prior to signing his last deal had nothing to do with his days as a 1C being over, but was based on the Kings no longer being contenders, and that they would not contend over the entire length of his contract. I still think this will be the case. If it turns out as predicted, then why sign the deal and not receive younger and future assets for him?

...and before some come in and ask for details on exactly who or what the Kings would have received, my answer is I can't tell you how the Kopitar trade tree would have worked out and where the Kings would be in terms of being contenders today. I can tell you they still are not contenders now, and I don't think they will be before his deal is done.

There's a reasonable and actually very good argument to be made that Kopitar deserves two Conn Smythes, which would be absolutely remarkable considering only two players have won two Conn Smythes in 30 years. Actually you just made the argument in your post! I thought he should have won both years, but I understand why he didn't. Yes Brown, Williams, and Gaborik all scored big goals, but Kopitar ultimately played a much more important position than them, dominating all over the ice in the two runs.

And by the way, there's no one player that can put a team on his shoulders and win the Cup without a quality supporting cast. That's certainly not a standard that anyone should hold any player to.

Kopitar has been an absolutely amazing player when you factor in every square inch of ice. I get your argument about moving him, but there was every reason to keep him at the time. I for one have enjoyed watching Kopitar for the entirety of his career as a King. I for one am glad the Kings kept him.