Around the League Thread part V

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GoldenBearHockey

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Jan 6, 2014
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I just don't understand how you can use as the defense of your argument in this situation

"No other team would have done it" (which again is a very valid argument you present to K17)

But then in other threads argue for something that the Kings did do with their highest ranked draft pick in a dozen years that no other team would have done. If you believe that "no other team would have done it" as an argument on one topic you should take that same argument in other ones. It just seems to me your use of "other teams wouldn't have done it" depends only on whether the Kings were the ones making the traditional moves. As soon as the Kings are the ones making the unorthodox moves well suddenly what all of teams would or wouldn't do doesn't matter. This was true in your defense of the handling of QB and Turcotte, which were both clearly unorthodox moves. To me it's just a huge contradiction that warrants a call-out.

I'm just really curious why what other teams would have done with Doughty/Kopitar is valid but what other teams would have done with QB/Turcotte means nothing?

As far as how to develop elite prospects.

What has been the most successful D+1 path for Top 1-3 picks to reach NHL stardom so far in this century?

A) Return to Junior/Europe/College
B) AHL
C) NHL

No long winded response, just a simple A, B or C will suffice.

Because one thing...is a TEAM/LEAGUE/SPORT specific thing....not one team in any sport has dismantled after winning a championship...unless financial or player issues etc.....

Developing a prospect is an INDVIDUAL specific job....it depends on the player, it depends on the environment, some players going straight to NHL good.....some....bad....some can get through confidence issues, some need help.....

images

I'm assuming you went to memes, because someone told you, your point, was f***ing horrific...and not backed by anything ever in the history of sports......

But I'm just guessing.
 

King'sPawn

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I don't buy that because I experienced the "rebuild" after the team traded Wayne Gretzky, and what did those assets turn into?

Say they get rid of Kopitar and pulled a Flyers like rebuild, who dealt Richards and Carter. Did that right their ship and turn them into contenders? Look at the position the Flyers are in now. Would you trade places with them?

The Kings aren't worse or in a bad position because they retained Kopitar, and things could be considerably worse without him. There's no guarantee that trading every 30+aged player was going to lead to success and a better development path for all the young players who are waiting for an opportunity.

Did the Ducks hanging onto Getzlaf prevent Trevor Zegras from breaking out? Getzlaf still had the highest average ice-time among all Ducks forwards, but that didn't block Zegras from becoming a productive player.
Just because the Kings didn't win under Kopitar's new contract doesn't mean they would have been any better off without his contract.

They'd be spending the free space on sub-par replacement level players and have more prospects, none of which they've proven to be able to develop into top-line players.

It's like I said - fix the infrastructure first. Kopitar, and his contract, weren't and aren't the problem.
 

KINGS17

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Apr 6, 2006
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Just trying to find a grade level someone might understand, but I guess pictures aren't going to work.
 

bland

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Jul 1, 2004
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I don't buy that because I experienced the "rebuild" after the team traded Wayne Gretzky, and what did those assets turn into?

Say they get rid of Kopitar and pulled a Flyers like rebuild, who dealt Richards and Carter. Did that right their ship and turn them into contenders? Look at the position the Flyers are in now. Would you trade places with them?

The Kings aren't worse or in a bad position because they retained Kopitar, and things could be considerably worse without him. There's no guarantee that trading every 30+aged player was going to lead to success and a better development path for all the young players who are waiting for an opportunity.

Did the Ducks hanging onto Getzlaf prevent Trevor Zegras from breaking out? Getzlaf still had the highest average ice-time among all Ducks forwards, but that didn't block Zegras from becoming a productive player.
No offense, but you are picking at nits instead of looking at the bigger picture.

Retaining Kopitar did nothing positive for the Kings. No team success at all, his worst individual seasons have come after that deal, and management continues to make decisions based on maintaining a dwindling status quo instead of moving forward.

I made this argument years ago and it unfolded exactly as I laid it out. It was a poor return on an investment with no realistic upside. The team was heading south due to the lack of cost-controlled assets, a non-existant prospect pool and an aging core that was contracting them into a corner. The only upside was just the hope that it would work out, there was no path to success.

The thing about your (and many others) argument is that you claim that folks like me are stating that a rebuild guarantees success while leaving your argument open to the possibilities of success if handled correctly. It applies both ways, Ziggy. Nothing is guaranteed. You weigh the likliehood of success for each path, and if you are honest with yourself, you would see that there was just nowhere near the chance for a positive outcome by keeping Kopitar instead of dealing him. And it isn't just about Anze either, this is just part of the whole issue. His part was the biggest because his deal came up at a crossroads for the team, and they chose the wrong turn.

You don't have to win that trade on ice, the most important thing would have been removing the expectations of the same kind of success from players that couldn't hope to maintain it. Byfield shouldn't have his growth measured against winning now, its not reasonable.

That commitment was always most likely ending in failure and it has turned out exactly as predicted. 4 playoff games won since he signed that deal, no series wins, and more years outside of the playoffs than in them. Plus the oft-mentioned mentoring thing hasn't really happened yet either, right? How many first round picks spent on centers have honestly benefitted from Kopitar? Look at the reverse though. How many kids have had their development handled poorly because the team was chasing immediate success instead of following thru on the rebuilds investment? Its just not even close.
 
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KINGS17

Smartest in the Room
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No offense, but you are picking at nits instead of looking at the bigger picture.

Retaining Kopitar did nothing positive for the Kings. No team success at all, his worst individual seasons have come after that deal, and management continues to make decisions based on maintaining a dwindling status quo instead of moving forward.

I made this argument years ago and it unfolded exactly as I laid it out. It was a poor return on an investment with no realistic upside. The team was heading south due to the lack of cost-controlled assets, a non-existant prospect pool and an aging core that was contracting them into a corner. The only upside was just the hope that it would work out, there was no path to success.

The thing about your (and many others) argument is that you claim that folks like me are stating that a rebuild guarantees success while leaving your argument open to the possibilities of success if handled correctly. It applies both ways, Ziggy. Nothing is guaranteed. You weigh the likliehood of success for each path, and if you are honest with yourself, you would see that there was just nowhere near the chance for a positive outcome by keeping Kopitar instead of dealing him. And it isn't just about Anze either, this is just part of the whole issue. His part was the biggest because his deal came up at a crossroads for the team, and they chose the wrong turn.

You don't have to win that trade on ice, the most important thing would have been removing the expectations of the same kind of success from players that couldn't hope to maintain it. Byfield shouldn't have his growth measured against winning now, its not reasonable.

That commitment was always most likely ending in failure and it has turned out exactly as predicted. 4 playoff games won since he signed that deal, no series wins, and more years outside of the playoffs than in them. Plus the oft-mentioned mentoring thing hasn't really happened yet either, right? How many first round picks spent on centers have honestly benefitted from Kopitar? Look at the reverse though. How many kids have had their development handled poorly because the team was chasing immediate success instead of following thru on the rebuilds investment? Its just not even close.
I made this argument as well, and it has turned out exactly as some of us predicted. The proof is in the results.

The probability of the Kings contending for a cup with Kopitar's contract on the books and his age were extremely low at the time of the signing.
 

Schrute farms

LA Kings: new GM wanted -- inquire within
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Only in fantasy fan world does a franchise trade arguably their best player ever who was a main cog in them winning two SCups and is still in his relative prime (not even 30). Especially a franchise who has never won crap whatsoever.
 

GoldenBearHockey

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Jan 6, 2014
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Only in fantasy fan world does a franchise trade arguably their best player ever who was a main cog in them winning two SCups and is still in his relative prime (not even 30). Especially a franchise who has never won crap whatsoever.

Welcome to Fantasy Island....a place where Kings17 and Bland both occupy.....in which Pro Sports win a championship, and then trade every important player, to wait around another 15 years and do it again....

Bland even made a main forum post about this, and let's just say it definitely did not go the way he thought it was going to
 
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bland

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Jul 1, 2004
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Only in fantasy fan world does a franchise trade arguably their best player ever who was a main cog in them winning two SCups and is still in his relative prime (not even 30). Especially a franchise who has never won crap whatsoever.
Where the hell do you get "best player ever", the hyperbole dollar store?

The list of top players leaving franchises in their prime after winning Cups several years before has been given here ad nauseum every stinking time we have this conversation. Do your own work, its not difficult.
 
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bland

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Jul 1, 2004
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Kopitar was nominated for a Hart Trophy after signing his big contract. Anyone recall the last King to earn such a nomination?

Again, picking nits to avoid the conversation. What about the years that bookended his career season? Did he build on it and continue, or did he slip right back into his mid-60s form? There is one outlier year in Anze's career, and you found it.

And the point is always the same either way, it doesn't matter how well he does or how poorly he does, it just didn't matter because the team was never going to be in position to succeed whether he stayed or not. Keeping him increased the odds of failure and enlarged the gap between losing and the always inevitable rebuild.
 
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Schrute farms

LA Kings: new GM wanted -- inquire within
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Where the hell do you get "best player ever", the hyperbole dollar store?

The list of top players leaving franchises in their prime after winning Cups several years before has been given here ad nauseum every stinking time we have this conversation. Do your own work, its not difficult.
Hmm I could have thought I said the word “arguably” - unless you don’t know what that word means.

Other franchises are not the Kings - in the LA market where a name fair weather fans (or less) matters. If you can’t see and recognize that then idk what to say.
 

GoldenBearHockey

Registered User
Jan 6, 2014
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Where the hell do you get "best player ever", the hyperbole dollar store?

The list of top players leaving franchises in their prime after winning Cups several years before has been given here ad nauseum every stinking time we have this conversation. Do your own work, its not difficult.

Bull shit it has.....you are just grasping at straws.....like normal....
 

KINGS17

Smartest in the Room
Apr 6, 2006
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Kopitar was nominated for a Hart Trophy after signing his big contract. Anyone recall the last King to earn such a nomination?
That's nice. Kopitar was nominated as the best player in the NHL on a team that failed to make the playoffs. Tell us again why that makes it important for him to be a member of the Kings, but it didn't seem to matter in terms of the team's success.
 

King'sPawn

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Jul 1, 2003
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Might be worth bringing this back to the "Around the League" topic, especially since some of Kopitar's detractors forget his Hart-nominated season, accomplished after he signed the current contract, helped pull the Kings into the playoffs. This whole argument is off-topic and untrue.
 

Ziggy Stardust

Master Debater
Jul 25, 2002
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Might be worth bringing this back to the "Around the League" topic, especially since some of Kopitar's detractors forget his Hart-nominated season, accomplished after he signed the current contract, helped pull the Kings into the playoffs. This whole argument is off-topic and untrue.
They’ll make anything up to fit their false narrative.
 

KINGS17

Smartest in the Room
Apr 6, 2006
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The 2017-18 Kings made the playoffs.
Oh my bad, that was the year the Kings were swept by an expansion team. You're right Kopitar's Hart nomination made all the difference. There is no false narrative. The fact is it has turned out exactly as predicted. The Kings haven't done squat in the playoffs since Kopitar started his current contract. He has been very good at times, but it hasn't mattered.
 

KINGS17

Smartest in the Room
Apr 6, 2006
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Yeah... just another run of the mill expansion team that went to the Stanley Cup Final.

Not shocked you left that out. Probably just another detail you forgot.

Should this thread go back on topic?
Swept 0-4. The Kings have won four playoff games and zero series over the course of the deal. Those are the important stats.
 

GoldenBearHockey

Registered User
Jan 6, 2014
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Swept 0-4. The Kings have won four playoff games and zero series over the course of the deal. Those are the important stats.

So is the fact that.....100 years or so of pro sports....NOT ONE TEAM HAS EVER DONE WHAT YOU SUGGESTED THEY DO.......NOT ONE...... so give or take 75-100 teams in all sports......for a 100 years....what is that,

0-75,000?
 
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