Around the League Thread Part II: Final Stretch

[KingsFan7824]

I want to know who they are modeling this rebuild after?

Who is the #1 d-man of the next era?

Who is the #1 goalie of the next era?

Who are the projected star forwards other than QB?

Is there any contingency plan if QB is say, a Ryan Johanssen instead of an Alexander Barkov? Os is the rebuild dead?

Contingency plan? As though you can cover every base twice over in a hard cap league.

 

[Herby]

Contingency plan? As though you can cover every base twice over in a hard cap league.

The cap has zero to do with this discussion, no idea why you brought it up. I am discussing the rebuild, specifically asking some questions of which you only wanted to answer one.

Pittsburgh won multiple cups by drafting two superstars in back to back years
Chicago won multiple cups by drafting two superstars in back to back years
The Kings won multiple cups by drafting two superstars in three years
Tampa Bay looks like they may win multiple cups by drafting superstars in 3 consecutive drafts

Who are the Kings modeling their rebuild after? Boston? They didn't do it the traditional way, but who besides Byfield projects to be anywhere near as good as anyone on their top line.

Are these fair questions to ask?

 

[kingsfan28]

Quick suffered a serious injury, trade made total sense. Who would you rather have Bishop or Budaj in the playoffs? Quick was a total question mark for the stretch.

In fact since that trade, Bishop has posted stellar numbers compared to Quick. My theory was that DL was going to move on from Quick. There was too many similarities with Mike Richter where he faded when his athleticism dwindled.

The problem was he traded for him too late. It was one that should've been made months earlier and probably could've been cheaper asset wise. It's obvious now his evaluation was waaaaay off with Cernak . He was our 2nd round pick and the best of the d group, and he just threw him in as an after thought. Cernak sure would look good as our 2nd pairing dman right about now. Overall, the trade was the second worst for DL, and continued with his horrible asset management that year . He traded a 1st, a 2nd, and a 7th , two dmen and 2 goalies for 2 rentals who he had no chance of re-signing.

 

[kingsfan28]

Now playing on the record player:

'Shades of Mark Scheifele' by Matt Barzel.

Vegas series, nothings even called, play on boys. Tampa series, you're looking at a game, maybe more, which will hurt the Isles. Just a bad penalty any way you look at it..

 

[DryIslandBartender]

The problem was he traded for him too late. It was one that should've been made months earlier and probably could've been cheaper asset wise. It's obvious now his evaluation was waaaaay off with Cernak . He was our 2nd round pick and the best of the d group, and he just threw him in as an after thought. Cernak sure would look good as our 2nd pairing dman right about now. Overall, the trade was the second worst for DL, and continued with his horrible asset management that year . He traded a 1st, a 2nd, and a 7th , two dmen and 2 goalies for 2 rentals who he had no chance of re-signing.

Tampa wanted more than Cernak, way more. DL said that he and Yzerman were going back and forth for 2-3 weeks. It’s rumored that TBL wanted a first and prospects. Likely a first + Cernak or someone else.

Second, DL publicly said this wasn’t an insurance policy. He also said he was going to roll with two #1 goalies. I don’t think Bishop was just a rental, in DL’s mind, he already saw Quick breaking down from his mileage, and they are HARD miles. This was DL thinking of the future Kings and again going back to his roots of building from the back out.

DL on the trade:

“But, I also think that when you’ve been out this long that to think you’re going to ride this like on a ratio of the past and playing Jon 70 games, I think that’s totally impractical. Number one, I don’t think it’s the best way to break in a guy who’s been out this long, and you look at the condensed schedule of three-in-four nights, and number two, quite frankly, I don’t think it’s good at any time. I think the days of playing Jon Quick 70 games, like we did two years ago, make no sense in terms of not only letting him play at his best, but also making sure that you have a player of his caliber extending his career and not wearing him out so he’s at the top of his game and he’s able to get the proper rest. So that all kind of ties into that short window here.”
“So in terms of Bish, he was the number one target that we felt that this is not an insurance policy. No, no. He needs to play, and like I said, we looked at the schedule here, preferably I would’ve been able to do this deal two weeks ago, but this is just the way trade deadline deals seem to work. Best case scenario, assuming Jon is at the top of his game, what’s the best number of games to play him? And we had sketched that out, and said, ‘you know what? It makes a lot of sense for him, but we better get essentially another number one. So, like I said, this is not an insurance policy. It is a way that we think can make sure that Jon is broken in properly … and makes sure we’re in position here to win every game, because every game down the stretch here is critical. Let’s face it, there’s not a lot of room here for error, and we just want to take that out of the equation by making sure that we have a number one goalie in there every night.”

Lot of guys would look good in our second pairing but we don’t grumble about how well Martinez, McNabb, Forbort look on other teams.

 

[tny760]

Vegas series, nothings even called, play on boys. Tampa series, you're looking at a game, maybe more, which will hurt the Isles. Just a bad penalty any way you look at it..

i wonder if the arm rip at the linesman might be a bigger problem for him, not sure they allow any leeway on those

 

[Reclamation Project]

Islanders will come back with a vengeance. Cocky ass Lightning running up the score won't sit well with that group and I expect them to play a monster game in Nassau.

 

[kingsfan28]

Tampa wanted more than Cernak, way more. DL said that he and Yzerman were going back and forth for 2-3 weeks. It’s rumored that TBL wanted a first and prospects. Likely a first + Cernak or someone else.

Second, DL publicly said this wasn’t an insurance policy. He also said he was going to roll with two #1 goalies. I don’t think Bishop was just a rental, in DL’s mind, he already saw Quick breaking down from his mileage, and they are HARD miles. This was DL thinking of the future Kings and again going back to his roots of building from the back out.

DL on the trade:


Lot of guys would look good in our second pairing but we don’t grumble about how well Martinez, McNabb, Forbort look on other teams.

DL's mind wasn't firing right at the time. How the hell could he not view this other than a rental? We couldn't afford Lucic when we traded for him [rental] and we sure as hell couldn't Bishop too. He signed a 6 yr , 29 mil contract with Dallas a few months later.Lombardi was delusional thinking he could keep him. Reading his breakdown again, my god he throws so many words and gibberish to try and convince you what he was trying to do. 10 plus mil tied up in two goalies when there was no cap space to start with...

It was a terrible deal for 6 weeks of Bishop. Tampa was trying to get rid of him and dump salary, and Yzerman found a sucker in DL, one that should've been done A MONTH after Quick went down not a week before he returned.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The cap has zero to do with this discussion, no idea why you brought it up. I am discussing the rebuild, specifically asking some questions of which you only wanted to answer one.

Pittsburgh won multiple cups by drafting two superstars in back to back years
Chicago won multiple cups by drafting two superstars in back to back years
The Kings won multiple cups by drafting two superstars in three years
Tampa Bay looks like they may win multiple cups by drafting superstars in 3 consecutive drafts

Who are the Kings modeling their rebuild after? Boston? They didn't do it the traditional way, but who besides Byfield projects to be anywhere near as good as anyone on their top line.

Are these fair questions to ask?

The other questions didn't interest me. I don't care if they are, or are not, modeling the rebuild after anyone else. I was just wondering what a contingency plan would be. Crosby was the contingency plan on Malkin? Or the other way around?

 

[DryIslandBartender]

DL's mind wasn't firing right at the time. How the hell could he not view this other than a rental? We couldn't afford Lucic when we traded for him [rental] and we sure as hell couldn't Bishop too. He signed a 6 yr , 29 mil contract with Dallas a few months later.Lombardi was delusional thinking he could keep him. Reading his breakdown again, my god he throws so many words and gibberish to try and convince you what he was trying to do. 10 plus mil tied up in two goalies when there was no cap space to start with...

It was a terrible deal for 6 weeks of Bishop. Tampa was trying to get rid of him and dump salary, and Yzerman found a sucker in DL, one that should've been done A MONTH after Quick went down not a week before he returned.

It is like you didn’t even read my post. The trade market that year was astronomically high, Coyotes traded Hanzal that year and for a 1st,2nd, 4th, prospects. That’s a guy with 26 points in 51 games. So DL was never going to acquire a top 6 forward. The lightning were asking for much more than just Cernak and picks if the trade was done any earlier.

And again, Quick was never the same after the injury and we have a rotating set of goalies the Kings are going through every season because of his injuries. Meanwhile, Bishop has been a Vezina candidate, posting top numbers on the Stars.

 

[Schmooley]

And again, Quick was never the same after the injury and we have a rotating set of goalies the Kings are going through every season because of his injuries. Meanwhile, Bishop has been a Vezina candidate, posting top numbers on the Stars.

Meanwhile Bishop missed their run last season and all of this season from injury.
Also Quick was great in that playoff against Vegas.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The double standards some posters have here are quite hilarious. Make excuses for one GM on what he intended to do, based on nothing but assumption, yet blame another GM for bad management for a trade that never materialized that would have improved the roster.

And what were the Kings to do with an expensive Ben Bishop who has spent more time on IR than he has appeared in games? I guess trading a top prospect in a weak pipeline in an area they were already depleted in excuses the price to pay for a rental goalie who played a handful of games and had worse numbers than the backup goalie who was sent packing.

 

[BigKing]

It has been mentioned that there is bad blood between Cernak and the Kings and it didn't seem like the run-of-the-mill "They didn't believe in me and traded me" type stuff.

The staff just took him with its first pick in the draft and then they gave him away. Something soured.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It has been mentioned that there is bad blood between Cernak and the Kings and it didn't seem like the run-of-the-mill "They didn't believe in me and traded me" type stuff.

The staff just took him with its first pick in the draft and then they gave him away. Something soured.

Given the rash of bad things happening throughout the organization, I guess it shouldn’t come as any shock.

Here’s a great feature The Article wrote on “Drago” in 2019.
From Slovakia to shutdown pair, how Erik Cernak has given Lightning 'something we've never had'

For once, Craig Button was right.

“I don’t understand what L.A. was doing that year, I just don’t,” Button said. “Sometimes what happens is you get zeroed in on a player that you need and you think you need — Bishop — that you sit there and say, ‘OK, Erik Cernak is a good player, but this is what we need right now.’ Bottom line is that was a misread. It’s a misread of where your team is and a misread of what the team needs. It ended up costing you because you now have a player you drafted in the second round and he’s become a really solid player on the best team in the NHL.”

 

[BigKing]

Given the rash of bad things happening throughout the organization, I guess it shouldn’t come as any shock.

Here’s a great feature The Article wrote on “Drago” in 2019.
From Slovakia to shutdown pair, how Erik Cernak has given Lightning 'something we've never had'

For once, Craig Button was right.

To do that trade, you pretty much have some sort of issue with the player or you somehow regret the pick less than two years later.

Even though he played in the OHL, could he have played in Ontario instead of going back to Erie in his D+2 season since he was Slovakian? Maybe he was miffed and some shit went down because of it.

 

[Master Yoda]

To do that trade, you pretty much have some sort of issue with the player or you somehow regret the pick less than two years later.

Even though he played in the OHL, could he have played in Ontario instead of going back to Erie in his D+2 season since he was Slovakian? Maybe he was miffed and some shit went down because of it.

I think the year after the trade, he took a shot at the Kings and said something like he was treated well in Tampa which is something he never experienced with the Kings.
Maybe there was more to the trade than DL just thinking Cernak was not developing properly.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He didn't say that Ottawa had won any cups, just that they rebuilt in a more traditional and proven way than Rob Blake has done with his attempted rebuild with two $10m a year players.

If we all agree it's harder to get top-6 guys and top 4 d-man they are kind of on their way. Stutzle (19), Tkachuk (21), Norris (22), Chabot (24), Batherson (23). Even Pinto (20) looked pretty impressive jumping straight in from NoDak and should be a lock to make their roster next fall.

If we are playing the fill in the box game, they have many of their important boxes filled with NHL proven players, and largely on the back of trading an expensive veteran who wasn't going to be a useful asset the next time they were going to contend.

yeah and that's my point--it's easy to 'rebuild' when you're starting from 'never was.' They didn't have the empty cupboards and only had one deep run. And as I mentioned their owner is famously cheap so when the single deep run turned into nothing thereafter it was an easy choice.

They traded their expensive vets because they were the epitome of a cinderella team.

Duchense, Turris are a looooooooooooooo deep breath oooooooong way from even Carter and Muzzin and even if you want to compare Stone to Kopitar and Karlsson to Doughty you can imagine how much easier it would have been to move those two had they not been key Cup pieces instead of 'not quite's.

They traded Duschene, Stone and EK after bottoming out when expecting to build off a deep run. The owner being cheap helped them by preventing the resigning of two players who ended up being albatross contracts.

Since 2015, the Sens are 13-12 in the playoffs and the Kings are 1-8. Don’t get me wrong, both teams suck. But one team is following a traditional rebuild and has a modicum of results to show for it.

The other team has shown worst results in the most recent season. And has more questions in the offseason. The Sens are looking for quality depth players to help their kids make progress. The Kings are looking for difference maker to help make the playoffs. Which team is actually rebuilding? Which one is paying lip service to the idea because the best players expect to win?

The majority of us agree that the path forward depends on the prospects. It’s unfortunate that sentiment towards legacy players is coloring the difficult decisions to be made.

See above. It's much easier to start from "never was" than "has been."

I don't think the franchises are comparable at all other than both are in rebuilds and one has significant Cup winning players left over to insulate the youth.

Re the boldfaced I don't see why you can't have both, you're just framing it as if the Kings already having those vets is a bad thing instead of good.

 

[BigKing]

I've brought this up about Ottawa in the past but they've had a first round pick in every draft since 2015 and a grand total of ten first round picks in that span of time. Ten second round picks as well. There has also been prospects included in these trades of good players, trades that started during the 2018 season. The Kings did not start trading its good players for futures until the 2019 season so Ottawa is a year ahead of the Kings as far as "blowing it up" goes and that doesn't even take into account that they had more high picks than the Kings did going back to 2015 regardless.

For comparison, the Kings have had five first round picks since 2015 and eight second round picks with four of those second rounders coming in just the last two drafts. Three of those first round picks are also only from the past two drafts.

 

[deeshamrock]

I know most GM's dial up, but every team.

 

[SFKingshomer]

I know most GM's dial up, but every team.

Yea because he's a big RH shot offensive defenseman in his prime. He's going to get paid!

 

[DryIslandBartender]

Meanwhile Bishop missed their run last season and all of this season from injury.
Also Quick was great in that playoff against Vegas.

I don’t think anyone disagrees that Bishop is a world class goalie, and like Quick he’s been hobbled by injuries. Difference is that Bishop is a more positional goalie, where Quick relies on his athleticism. Expectations aren’t high for Quick who is under contract for two more seasons, might be a backup to Cal, or splitting the load. It seemed effective this season but like the rest of the team, the wheels came off. Everyone is focused on the top 6 and rightly so, but should be concerned about the back end as well.

Last thoughts on Bishop, he is a couple years younger and carries a cheaper cap hit (#16 Among goalies) than Quick (#9 among goalies) and has finished second in the Vezina voting the year before and posted similar numbers in the playoffs than Quick in the Kings brief 2017 playoff appearance. It’s not a stretch to think that DL was going to have to build from the back out again, since this core hadn’t done much since the Cup win and still haven’t.

 

[YP44]

Yea because he's a big RH shot offensive defenseman in his prime. He's going to get paid!

I hope a divisional opponent trades a fortune for him and then he walks as a UFA.

I still think Hamilton ends up in chicago. Seabrook and Shaw LTIR has them with a fair bit of space

 

[Lt Dan]

Caufield is straight gangsta

 

[DryIslandBartender]

(Caulfield scores!)

Herby:

 

[kingsholygrail]

What is Vegas doing? They look like us out there. Missing assignments. Giving up shitty breakaways. Can't hit the net.