Around the league part 2

[Little Psycho]

Sideyeing you kopi

 

[Omni Owl]

Kopi being way too classy to that dirty f***er.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Part of me thinks the Kings moved PLD to gear up for a Leon offer next summer.

 

[kovacro]

I thought Leon and McDavid were married.

 

[King'sPawn]

It's a good reminder that this is a job/career for them. While they compete on the ice, they still have general respect off the ice.

I forget the fighters (maybe Laroques was involved?), but it says a lot when two dudes who just punched eachother in the face patted each other on the back and said "good fight."

The players don't hate each other nearly as much as the fans hate rival players.

I'm sure many will look at Kopitar's response as a negative, but it's one of the aspects about hockey, and sportsmanship in general, I really like.

 

[21Dog]

I thought Leon and McDavid were married.

 

[JJDrums]

Everyone in the Kings player development department needs to be deep sixed. Same for their amateur scouting department. Kings just keep flopping in the draft and in the development of younger players.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Everyone in the Kings player development department needs to be deep sixed. Same for their amateur scouting department. Kings just keep flopping in the draft and in the development of younger players.

100% said Andersson, Byfield, Spence, Laferriere, Lizotte etc....

Just....total flops.

 

[JJDrums]

100% said Andersson, Byfield, Spence, Laferriere, Lizotte etc....

Just....total flops.

And how many are above average NHLers? Byfield is going to get there but how any are not just fringe players? Anderson is a 2nd pairing on good teams.

And what about all the other picks over the past decade? Pretty skinny list and rather weak too.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

And how many are above average NHLers? Byfield is going to get there but how any are not just fringe players? Anderson is a 2nd pairing on good teams.

And what about all the other picks over the past decade? Pretty skinny list and rather weak too.

Oh you want to go through the past decade, tell me your starting point please, 2014? 2010?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

And how many are above average NHLers? Byfield is going to get there but how any are not just fringe players? Anderson is a 2nd pairing on good teams.

And what about all the other picks over the past decade? Pretty skinny list and rather weak too.

Lets start with 2010, because 2024 kinda hard to judge the draft that just happened

Forbort, Toffoli, Shore, Pearson, Miller, Amadio, Kempe, Roy, Eyssimont, Anderson, Vilardi, Kupari, Kaliyev,

All with SIGNIFICANT, NHL time that were either drafted or developed by LA, that's not taking into account ANY undrafted UFA signings like Lizotte, Iafallo, etc.

 

[Statto]

It's a good reminder that this is a job/career for them. While they compete on the ice, they still have general respect off the ice.

I forget the fighters (maybe Laroques was involved?), but it says a lot when two dudes who just punched eachother in the face patted each other on the back and said "good fight."

The players don't hate each other nearly as much as the fans hate rival players.

I'm sure many will look at Kopitar's response as a negative, but it's one of the aspects about hockey, and sportsmanship in general, I really like.

The enforcers I know are the kindest, most level headed people I’ve met in the game. Some of the best behaved on the ice, I’ve met, are some of the biggest ******. My point, similar to yours KP is that there is a big difference between the on ice player and the off ice guy.

Think if it as the difference between ‘Slim Shady’ and ‘Marshall Mathers’- a topical reference.

 

[kovacro]

Lets start with 2010, because 2024 kinda hard to judge the draft that just happened

Forbort, Toffoli, Shore, Pearson, Miller, Amadio, Kempe, Roy, Eyssimont, Anderson, Vilardi, Kupari, Kaliyev,

All with SIGNIFICANT, NHL time that were either drafted or developed by LA, that's not taking into account ANY undrafted UFA signings like Lizotte, Iafallo, etc.

Had chatted with an amateur scout a few years back and he had mentioned that if you can get 3 NHL players from every draft, you have done well. I'd say during that time frame (2010 - 2020) they are about on par. While it has not been great, they did hit on some guys in the later rounds. They had done well finding defensemen later in drafts.

Los Angeles Kings Draft History at hockeydb.com

Noting those College free agent signings, don't forget about Bowling Green's own Sean Walker! I'd say he's forged a pretty solid career.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Had chatted with an amateur scout a few years back and he had mentioned that if you can get 3 NHL players from every draft, you have done well. I'd say during that time frame (2010 - 2020) they are about on par. While it has not been great, they did hit on some guys in the later rounds. They had done well finding defensemen later in drafts.

Los Angeles Kings Draft History at hockeydb.com

Noting those College free agent signings, don't forget about Bowling Green's own Sean Walker! I'd say he's forged a pretty solid career.

Kings have done very well drafting but as you note also with college FAs (and even others, like Muzzin and Martin Jones).

 

[YP44]

Lets start with 2010, because 2024 kinda hard to judge the draft that just happened

Forbort, Toffoli, Shore, Pearson, Miller, Amadio, Kempe, Roy, Eyssimont, Anderson, Vilardi, Kupari, Kaliyev,

All with SIGNIFICANT, NHL time that were either drafted or developed by LA, that's not taking into account ANY undrafted UFA signings like Lizotte, Iafallo, etc.

Wanted to mention many of those picks were not ten picks. Expectations needs to be lower for them IMO.
Kings do a good job drafting IMO and I have no clue how to rate LA's development. But i do question usage alot of the time though.

 

[All The Kings Men]

Kings do a good job drafting IMO and I have no clue how to rate LA's development. But i do question usage alot of the time though.

said it before I'll probably say it again...

Kopitar, Carter, Lucic, Brown, Williams, Iginla, Stoll, Richards, Gaborik, Toffoli, Iafallo

That's the list of forwards that averaged 15:00 a game or more between 2012-13 and 2017-18
and I left out Tanner Pearson (14:53)
(it's also all strengths not even strength but I'm just not going that deep into it)

If you don't have room for Top 6 fowards to "develop" into then they won't

From 2010ish to 2019 this team was competing with a very defined identity and concept

During the rebuild (2018-19 to 2020-21) they still had Kopitar, Brown, Carter, Iafallo, Kovalchuk, Kempe, Athanasiou averaging 15ish or more minutes per game

Then in the 2021 offseason they acquired Danault and Arviddson. Then they added Fiala in 2022. Dubois in 2023.

None of that has anything to do with the amateur scouting department, the drafting decisions or the development staff.

It's an overall organizational focus on importing external talent to play certain roles that has lasted for almost the entirety of the franchises history.

The outliers are Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown but the Cup was won twice thanks in part to external additions Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Justin Williams, Jarret Stoll, Dustin Penner, Marian Gaborik and that's just at foward.

I already regret restating this.

And to be clear it's not a defence of any specific regime or decision... it is however an urge to stop looking at the issue as just "it's either the drafting or the development"

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Wanted to mention many of those picks were not ten picks. Expectations needs to be lower for them IMO.
Kings do a good job drafting IMO and I have no clue how to rate LA's development. But i do question usage alot of the time though.

Yea, usage vs draft even vs development are ALL seperate things that go into if a player succeeds or not, though as I type this, usage probably equals deployment, so just set one of those aside in the redundant rednundacy pile.

said it before I'll probably say it again...

Kopitar, Carter, Lucic, Brown, Williams, Iginla, Stoll, Richards, Gaborik, Toffoli, Iafallo

That's the list of forwards that averaged 15:00 a game or more between 2012-13 and 2017-18
and I left out Tanner Pearson (14:53)
(it's also all strengths not even strength but I'm just not going that deep into it)

If you don't have room for Top 6 fowards to "develop" into then they won't

From 2010ish to 2019 this team was competing with a very defined identity and concept

During the rebuild (2018-19 to 2020-21) they still had Kopitar, Brown, Carter, Iafallo, Kovalchuk, Kempe, Athanasiou averaging 15ish or more minutes per game

Then in the 2021 offseason they acquired Danault and Arviddson. Then they added Fiala in 2022. Dubois in 2023.

None of that has anything to do with the amateur scouting department, the drafting decisions or the development staff.

It's an overall organizational focus on importing external talent to play certain roles that has lasted for almost the entirety of the franchises history.

The outliers are Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown but the Cup was won twice thanks in part to external additions Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Justin Williams, Jarret Stoll, Dustin Penner, Marian Gaborik and that's just at foward.

I already regret restating this.

And to be clear it's not a defence of any specific regime or decision... it is however an urge to stop looking at the issue as just "it's either the drafting or the development"

True enough, but if you have that much faith in a prospect you MAKE room for them, that's not something LA has done in 30 years if not forever....and when they did, they f***ed it up royally anyways by using it on the wrong player, Jokinen, Berg etc.

 

[yankeeking]

never mind

 

[BigKing]

@All The Kings Men

Richards is acquired in part due to playing Simmonds.
Williams is acquired in part due to playing O'Sullivan

Not an outlier is Tyler Toffoli and, arguably, Tanner Pearson when talking 2014.

You never win a Cup with all homegrown talent, which is why it is always so funny to see people post future lineups consisting of eight current forward prospects or something. That said, you can't block the prospects from playing.

Lombardi's rebuild didn't keep high-end forward prospects from getting ice time and, of course, he inherited the two best ones. That said, he started bringing in impact players when he felt the kids were ready to push towards the playoffs: Blake did it when those same kids now as graybeards wanted immediate help.

Blake drafted almost nothing but centers--including at 2OA and 5OA--and then went out and signed Danault. Great "value" on the RV deal but, again, there goes a spot.

Then you have the RHD debacle where he rides Roy all the way out the door while jettisoning Faber and Durzi while potentially mismanaging Spence/Clarke. That's me being nice RE: Clarke since his D+1 year was malpractice on Blake's part.

The Faber move brings in another guy that blocks youth, albeit a near PPG-ish guy. Durzi is part of a move to bring in a trash player that "blocks" youth for one more season while also costing actual productive, homegrown youth in Vilardi.

Anyways, I agree that it isn't all about development since I think the actual players themselves get way too much of a pass under this false premise of "they would all be Top 6'ers somewhere else", but the development is definitely an issue. Blake brought in these vets which damaged the development of "the top prospect pool in the league" and it has resulted in three playoff appearances with diminishing returns each year.

As rabid Kings fans, this failed rebuild is a tragedy akin to suicide. It's all self-inflicted wounds. We only have so many years on this earth and Blake has basically pissed away seven seasons of our fandom and the eighth one isn't looking any better at the moment.

 

[King'sPawn]

said it before I'll probably say it again...

Kopitar, Carter, Lucic, Brown, Williams, Iginla, Stoll, Richards, Gaborik, Toffoli, Iafallo

That's the list of forwards that averaged 15:00 a game or more between 2012-13 and 2017-18
and I left out Tanner Pearson (14:53)
(it's also all strengths not even strength but I'm just not going that deep into it)

If you don't have room for Top 6 fowards to "develop" into then they won't

From 2010ish to 2019 this team was competing with a very defined identity and concept

During the rebuild (2018-19 to 2020-21) they still had Kopitar, Brown, Carter, Iafallo, Kovalchuk, Kempe, Athanasiou averaging 15ish or more minutes per game

Then in the 2021 offseason they acquired Danault and Arviddson. Then they added Fiala in 2022. Dubois in 2023.

None of that has anything to do with the amateur scouting department, the drafting decisions or the development staff.

It's an overall organizational focus on importing external talent to play certain roles that has lasted for almost the entirety of the franchises history.

The outliers are Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown but the Cup was won twice thanks in part to external additions Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Justin Williams, Jarret Stoll, Dustin Penner, Marian Gaborik and that's just at foward.

I already regret restating this.

And to be clear it's not a defence of any specific regime or decision... it is however an urge to stop looking at the issue as just "it's either the drafting or the development"

I agree with most of this. But that's part of the problem, imo. It was an ongoing effort of leaning on vets for the most part, and the younger pieces (like Toffoli and Pearson) stagnated/failed to grow into a bigger role and be a new part of leadership.

As you interviewed George, didn't it strike you as odd that Kopitar was the only person who has reached out to him at the time of the interview?

Top-six is certainly a major issue, but not having anyone else elevated into setting and maintaining a culture is something that's been missing since 2015.

And this isn't an indictment on any one singular player. Just that there's more than a player not getting top-six ice time. The ice time is a symptom. The team, in my opinion, has shown more concern with churning out NHL players (of which they are very good), but their ability to develop culture-changing difference makers is questionable.

 

[BigKing]

I agree with most of this. But that's part of the problem, imo. It was an ongoing effort of leaning on vets for the most part, and the younger pieces (like Toffoli and Pearson) stagnated/failed to grow into a bigger role and be a new part of leadership.

As you interviewed George, didn't it strike you as odd that Kopitar was the only person who has reached out to him at the time of the interview?

Top-six is certainly a major issue, but not having anyone else elevated into setting and maintaining a culture is something that's been missing since 2015.

And this isn't an indictment on any one singular player. Just that there's more than a player not getting top-six ice time. The ice time is a symptom. The team, in my opinion, has shown more concern with churning out NHL players (of which they are very good), but their ability to develop culture-changing difference makers is questionable.

The Org is like those posters in the main board thread about how LA is a horribly run franchise that posted "They won two Cups".

That was 10 years ago now. Ten years prior to the '14 Cup, Luc Robitaille was the team's leading scorer with 51 points in 80 games with Trent Klatt in third. Trent Klatt. That's how long 10 years is in the NHL.

Just because you still have 11/8, along with Cup-era players in various organizational roles, doesn't mean you still have the culture that Lombardi built. Hell, Lombardi started to lose it and has said numerous times that he struggled with how to remain on top.

How do you stay hungry? I think that's the valid criticism of 11/8's leadership and it really is just human nature. Yes, they want to win and, yes, they play hard. But they are also supposed to be the culture setters and that doesn't really feel like their thing, which means it falls on Blake to recognize that and add the pieces to do it.

Unfortunately, the lack of a plan--or at least an adherence to one--makes it feel like the Org is acting just like it did when Luc, Blake, Emerson, Muzz et al were sharing the ice together as players.

 

[YP44]

Yea, usage vs draft even vs development are ALL seperate things that go into if a player succeeds or not, though as I type this, usage probably equals deployment, so just set one of those aside in the redundant rednundacy pile.

I think usage contributes to development but there is likely more that goes into development than usage. Either way I cannot critic development, but I can usage.

 

[YP44]

said it before I'll probably say it again...

Kopitar, Carter, Lucic, Brown, Williams, Iginla, Stoll, Richards, Gaborik, Toffoli, Iafallo

That's the list of forwards that averaged 15:00 a game or more between 2012-13 and 2017-18
and I left out Tanner Pearson (14:53)
(it's also all strengths not even strength but I'm just not going that deep into it)

If you don't have room for Top 6 fowards to "develop" into then they won't

From 2010ish to 2019 this team was competing with a very defined identity and concept

During the rebuild (2018-19 to 2020-21) they still had Kopitar, Brown, Carter, Iafallo, Kovalchuk, Kempe, Athanasiou averaging 15ish or more minutes per game

Then in the 2021 offseason they acquired Danault and Arviddson. Then they added Fiala in 2022. Dubois in 2023.

None of that has anything to do with the amateur scouting department, the drafting decisions or the development staff.

It's an overall organizational focus on importing external talent to play certain roles that has lasted for almost the entirety of the franchises history.

The outliers are Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown but the Cup was won twice thanks in part to external additions Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Justin Williams, Jarret Stoll, Dustin Penner, Marian Gaborik and that's just at foward.

I already regret restating this.

And to be clear it's not a defence of any specific regime or decision... it is however an urge to stop looking at the issue as just "it's either the drafting or the development"

I agree with everything you wrote here. Don't see where i said it was development issues, and I said I like our scouts draft work .

@All The Kings Men

Richards is acquired in part due to playing Simmonds.
Williams is acquired in part due to playing O'Sullivan

Not an outlier is Tyler Toffoli and, arguably, Tanner Pearson when talking 2014.

You never win a Cup with all homegrown talent, which is why it is always so funny to see people post future lineups consisting of eight current forward prospects or something. That said, you can't block the prospects from playing.

Lombardi's rebuild didn't keep high-end forward prospects from getting ice time and, of course, he inherited the two best ones. That said, he started bringing in impact players when he felt the kids were ready to push towards the playoffs: Blake did it when those same kids now as graybeards wanted immediate help.

Blake drafted almost nothing but centers--including at 2OA and 5OA--and then went out and signed Danault. Great "value" on the RV deal but, again, there goes a spot.

Then you have the RHD debacle where he rides Roy all the way out the door while jettisoning Faber and Durzi while potentially mismanaging Spence/Clarke. That's me being nice RE: Clarke since his D+1 year was malpractice on Blake's part.

The Faber move brings in another guy that blocks youth, albeit a near PPG-ish guy. Durzi is part of a move to bring in a trash player that "blocks" youth for one more season while also costing actual productive, homegrown youth in Vilardi.

Anyways, I agree that it isn't all about development since I think the actual players themselves get way too much of a pass under this false premise of "they would all be Top 6'ers somewhere else", but the development is definitely an issue. Blake brought in these vets which damaged the development of "the top prospect pool in the league" and it has resulted in three playoff appearances with diminishing returns each year.

As rabid Kings fans, this failed rebuild is a tragedy akin to suicide. It's all self-inflicted wounds. We only have so many years on this earth and Blake has basically pissed away seven seasons of our fandom and the eighth one isn't looking any better at the moment.

the bolded was depressing.. you ok?

 

[All The Kings Men]

I agree with everything you wrote here. Don't see where i said it was development issues, and I said I like our scouts draft work .

sorry thst wasnt directed at you it just seemed like a good prompt to start off

 

[All The Kings Men]

I agree with most of this. But that's part of the problem, imo.

whether or not its a wise strategy is not a conversation I'm going to participate in...

I just think if people want to catalog missed opportunities or deficient areas of expertise within the organization it's important to accurately identify where any opportunities existed and when and where people are able to demonstrate their expertise.

"Development" is a loose term that gets tossed around liberally and as I've said in the past I don't think we have any meaningful evidence to support any claim of the Kings ability or inability to develop "top end" talent or draft picks.

They just haven't had the talent or the space for those types of players to emerge. Their track record for "developing" players to play in support roles seems pretty unassailable to me.

If people want to criticize the overall organizational trajectory since the summer of 2014 well... at some level the results speak for themselves.