Around the league part 2

[tny760]

The Kings needed a center more than anything, so I've always understood the logic behind the PLD trade.

But if Vilardi really breaks out this year and outscores him, the optics on this move are going to look really bad.

I still think Kupari has upside as well. Watch Iafallo finally hit 20 goals.

no goalie though. makes me grit my teeth a bit even with recent cup winners with replacement-level goaltenders. it's probably gonna make sense in retrospect but it's risky business in my opinion

kupari probably flourishes with some trust and freedom, iafallo i think is 50/50 of either dwight kinging out of the league or becoming someone's great value brand jake guentzel

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

They weren't full time roles, if they were they wouldn't have went back down. There are injuries and such that drive roster decisions. It's not in a vacuum.

I'm not saying they don't play their young guys, they obviously do. And I said it's not a total slow boil where it's 3 years in the minors, etc. But they certainly take their time and almost never just thrust guys in It's not commont for Kings players not to get a good amount of AHL time. Nothing more than that.


Wow, welcome to ignore dude.

If you want to say they don't thrust their guys in by NEVER playing an AHL game, then sure, most teams don't do that outside the top 5-10 etc, but when you only play 40 games in the AHL and then play a full season, that's not slow boiling, and that's what they have done with a LOT of their prospects...

 

[johnjm22]

As much as I hated Iafallo as a first liner he was a great depth piece and had a really good playoff last year. This trade could end up taking away more than it gives the team even if PLD plays well.

I think this season will be a demonstration of how much more important the center position is than wingers.

As good as Iafallo and Vilardi were, we still couldn't get a fully functioning top 9 with them in the lineup.

If PLD busts, Blake's ass is on the line for sure.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

If the optics end up looking really bad is Blake put on the hotseat?
As much as I hated Iafallo as a first liner he was a great depth piece and had a really good playoff last year. This trade could end up taking away more than it gives the team even if PLD plays well.
Moving Iafallos salary (or Grundstrum+Lizotte salaries) for a goalie may have been the smarter move for Blake to secure his job than a middle 6 center though it was an area of need also.
Also lets not forget the cost he paid to get and retain Gavrikov. Hes great and we know what he brings now so the price is overlooked but Blake paid a ton.

He paid a ton? He traded a late late 1st round pick.....not sure if that qualifies as a ton

 

[Sol]

I can understand the logic of the PLD trade, but I think if the organization truly had high hopes for Byfield they would have let him just do whatever he wants as center on the third line or something. I think its a bad idea that hes cooking next to Kopitar because I think him deferring to Kopitar and Kempe a lot has made him a lot more passive than he should be. I think it would have been best to let him f*** up and give him free reign on the 3rd line with some talented wingers. I think trading Vilardi was a mistake as well. Id rather have him be tried at center again since he's super talented but it is what it is. Judging by the Jets board they really really really like Vilardi's game.


I think the PLD trade is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back. And I am undoubtedly sour because I considered Fiala and Vilardi to be the most talented players on the Kings by far, and they traded him. and Vilardi seemed like a really good kid. Those celebrations were extremely infectious. f*** man.

 

[Herby]

Nope, not ignoring it at all, the argument was that the Kings slow boil their prospects, don't play them....

When there is a f*** ton of proof...that that is WRONG. It's 100% f***ing wrong and people refuse to accept that, for some god known reason, it's wrong.

They play a LOT of young players, right away, some, they SHOULD HAVE SLOW BOILED....but they did not.....

Do you believe with the results we now have, that using the AHL as a development league for teenagers was the correct strategy by the Kings?

Do you think Kings prospects would have reached a higher potential and/or reached it quicker had the Kings used more tried and tested development strategies?

 

[Sol]

You can like the trades the Kings have made on paper. Contextually however the Kings gave up a lot of assets to course correct heavily on issues created by Blake himself. They sure did give up a ton for Gavrikov. And they gave up a ton to retain him. They gave up a ton for PLD and payed him max contract. I guarantee you if Byfield panned out earlier we wouldn’t have gotten PLD. The issues of drafting has cost the Kings a ransom for PLD. The unbelievable stupidity of Blake has cost the Kings a ransom to get an LD. And the shortsightedness of Blake has led to the Kings worst goaltending tandem since the Cloutier days.


Without context the trades are ok. But when you consider why they did it, and how they got into this position then you can easily argue that the Kings would have more assets, less cap expenditures, and a better team overall. The Kings got here through desperation, not through calculated moves. This team is operating through ultimatums they propelled themselves into. There’s no reason to praise Blake for digging himself out a hole he put himself into at such a significant cost.

It’s the equivalent of me punching someone in the face for no reason but then doing the nice gesture of giving them an ice pack. Why praise me for my kindness when I’m the person who punched them to begin with?

It just doesn’t add up with context

 

[Schmooley]

He paid a ton? He traded a late late 1st round pick.....not sure if that qualifies as a ton

Yea he gave that 1st. Then to retain Gavrikov he had to make that Philly trade to unload Walker/Petersen contracts (which were his own mistakes) and give Grans, an extra 2nd round pick, and eat 30% of Provorovs salary to play for Columbus.

 

[bland]

I would argue that Stützle would have been in the NHL from day one, but the whole AHL/NHL time isn't really the point. The issue is kids not being played to their strengths and developing confidence in the roles they were drafted to fill.

The team will not progress until younger players take ownership of the team's identity away from the faded vets. Nothing, literally nothing will change until that happens. There is a losing pattern in place here that gets further and further entrenched with each player brought in to augment the older vets instead of assuming prime roles OR acclimating top picks successfully.

It's a failed model. It cannot and will not succeed.

 

[Fishhead]

If the optics end up looking really bad is Blake put on the hotseat?
As much as I hated Iafallo as a first liner he was a great depth piece and had a really good playoff last year. This trade could end up taking away more than it gives the team even if PLD plays well.
Moving Iafallos salary (or Grundstrum+Lizotte salaries) for a goalie may have been the smarter move for Blake to secure his job than a middle 6 center though it was an area of need also.
Also lets not forget the cost he paid to get and retain Gavrikov. Hes great and we know what he brings now so the price is overlooked but Blake paid a ton.

There was a lot of cost in each trade for sure. Looking at the other side of it, the Kings had capital to burn as they couldn't keep everyone.

For Gavrikov, Fiala, and PLD the Kings have given up:

2 firsts
1 second
1 third
Faber
Iafallo
Vilardi
Kupari

Quick was just short-term cap space. Some of that cap space was negated in the trade to unload Petersen and Walker, which opened even more.

They recouped the 2nd for Durzi.


Looking at that list, most thought:

Iafallo was solid but overpaid
Kupari was nothing of consequence.

Vilardi and Faber are the biggest losses. The picks, while firsts, weren't great ones. We've seen what they usually do in the first round anyways. Looking at the bigger trades as a whole? That's not a ton to give up for two top flight forwards and a top middle pairing defender.

For Blake to stick around, one of two things has to happen.

1. They need to win, or at least represent the west in the Final in the next 2 years.

or

2. A couple of forwards (Pinelli, Laf) and Clarke need to fully pan out and Byfield needs to continue to improve so when Doughty and Kopitar are gone the team is still in good shape.

If neither of those happen, well, vaya con dios Robbie.

 

[Sol]

Just because the Kings haven’t been good in the first round doesn’t mean those assets are less valuable.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Do you believe with the results we now have, that using the AHL as a development league for teenagers was the correct strategy by the Kings?

Do you think Kings prospects would have reached a higher potential and/or reached it quicker had the Kings used more tried and tested development strategies?

Nope, but I also know the bets I made on Sunday were pure horseshit too.......you can only do what you can do with the information you have available at the time....

EDIT: The nope was to the 1st question....

The answer to the 2nd question is, WTF knows....I don't have a crystal ball, I still think Byfield will be fine, Bjornfot I've always liked, not sure why they want to play Edler, Englund, Moveareve over him etc, I don't think them playing in the AHL hurt them one bit.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Yea he gave that 1st. Then to retain Gavrikov he had to make that Philly trade to unload Walker/Petersen contracts (which were his own mistakes) and give Grans, an extra 2nd round pick, and eat 30% of Provorovs salary to play for Columbus.

That's separate, put in defenseman XXXXXXX instead......they needed a LHD after the season, they chose Gavrikov, they needed to make cap space, the cost was Grans (meh, until proven differently) and a 2nd round pick, which they got back when he traded Durzi......so...........Grans.....and....2million or what not in cost of Provorov......

Again, that's a ton? We have different definitions then.....by far.

 

[Schmooley]

That's separate, put in defenseman XXXXXXX instead......they needed a LHD after the season, they chose Gavrikov, they needed to make cap space, the cost was Grans (meh, until proven differently) and a 2nd round pick, which they got back when he traded Durzi......so...........Grans.....and....2million or what not in cost of Provorov......

Again, that's a ton? We have different definitions then.....by far.

Yes that is a lot. A 1st, 2nd, Grans, and about 7,875,000$ with that retention for a second pairing dman.
If someone offered a first, 2nd, and b+ prospect for Roy and paid him that much wed all think it was a big cost.
I like both players so when it works out like this you dont bat an eye. But lets not act like Blake isnt paying the piper handsomely in these deals.

 

[Herby]

Nope, but I also know the bets I made on Sunday were pure horseshit too.......you can only do what you can do with the information you have available at the time....

EDIT: The nope was to the 1st question....

The answer to the 2nd question is, WTF knows....I don't have a crystal ball, I still think Byfield will be fine, Bjornfot I've always liked, not sure why they want to play Edler, Englund, Moveareve over him etc, I don't think them playing in the AHL hurt them one bit.

I guess my question is the same one it's always been, going back to when I warned about the dangers of doing things this way, (especially with Turcotte) why do they feel the need to do things so much differently from everyone else, when the other ways have been so consistently successful? Having guys play two years of college rather than in the AHL has been such an overwhelming success for so many teams, why would they go away from that? I mean I get where you are coming from with the hindsight stuff about bets, but this information was clearly known at the time, if a fan like myself can see how drastic the difference has been, why cant they? And I'm guessing they did know the facts, but they are just so obsessed with getting guys into the AHL so quickly, they do it, even if it severely damages any upside the player has. And I think that happened with both these guys.

Most teams do not treat their AHL affiliate the same as the Kings do, its a complete philosophical difference, and one that has not produced strong results for the Kings relative to the draft capital used on prospects.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I guess my question is the same one it's always been, going back to when I warned about the dangers of doing things this way, (especially with Turcotte) why do they feel the need to do things so much differently from everyone else, when the other ways have been so consistently successful? Having guys play two years of college rather than in the AHL has been such an overwhelming success for so many teams, why would they go away from that? I mean I get where you are coming from with the hindsight stuff about bets, but this information was clearly known at the time, if a fan like myself can see how drastic the difference has been, why cant they? And I'm guessing they did know the facts, but they are just so obsessed with getting guys into the AHL so quickly, they do it, even if it severely damages any upside the player has. And I think that happened with both these guys.

Most teams do not treat their AHL affiliate the same as the Kings do, its a complete philosophical difference, and one that has not produced strong results for the Kings relative to the draft capital used on prospects.

Turcotte, 100% agree, Byfield, what other options did they have at the time? NHL or AHL were the only options, and he was not ready mentally or physically for the NHL....

People don't expand on this, but Pro vs Junior/College is such a huge step not only in the game, but in the lifestyle.....

I don't think playing Bjornfoot or Byfield in the AHL hampered anything....

Yes that is a lot. A 1st, 2nd, Grans, and about 7,875,000$ with that retention for a second pairing dman.
If someone offered a first, 2nd, and b+ prospect for Roy and paid him that much wed all think it was a big cost.
I like both players so when it works out like this you dont bat an eye. But lets not act like Blake isnt paying the piper handsomely in these deals.

A 1st, and a B prospect, was the cost.....sorry, a LATE LATE 1st.....and a B prospect......(KHL, AHL, are LITTERED with B prospects)

 

[Fishhead]

Yes that is a lot. A 1st, 2nd, Grans, and about 7,875,000$ with that retention for a second pairing dman.
If someone offered a first, 2nd, and b+ prospect for Roy and paid him that much wed all think it was a big cost.
I like both players so when it works out like this you dont bat an eye. But lets not act like Blake isnt paying the piper handsomely in these deals.

It was a 1st, 3rd, and Quick, wasn't it? Grans had to go to get them to take Petersen. Money well spent in that regard.

I don't think prices are high or low really, just kind of market value. It has opened up some salary space for next year. They'll have at least $20M (likely more) in cap space to replace Arvidsson, Lewis, Roy, and get a goalie. Lizotte, Grundstrom, Byfield, Kaliyev, and JAD are RFA. I'm guessing Grundy and JAD go, the others get raises. The bolded should be replaced from within. That's a good chunk of cash, could either resign RV or pick up a damn good forward and get a really good goalie.

 

[Fishhead]

Most teams do not treat their AHL affiliate the same as the Kings do, its a complete philosophical difference, and one that has not produced strong results for the Kings relative to the draft capital used on prospects.

I have certainly noticed that things changed substantially when the affiliate was moved out here from Manchester. It's too convenient to have guys down in the minors and still be able to interact with them on a daily basis. If it was still cross-country, I thnk things would be different.

I know the team's philosophy and their beliefs on development, but I wonder if it's affected some situations. If it was still Manchester, I don't necessarily think Byfield would go down to get some games in, for example. It would certainly make them think more about moves.

I know other teams have them close by, but just something that might affect decision making. It's a long time since the Kings were close to their minor team.

 

[KingsHockey24]

I cry seeing this. We could've had this on our 4th line.

 

[Surf Nutz]

If Gabe stays healthy, he will continue to improve. He has a tendency to start hot, he's always looked good in pre-season. He could light it up this year.

His health was generally good last year, but he's going to have to keep up his regimen because maintaining his back is going to be a little more of a challenge in the freezing peg compared to LA. His health was the biggest risk in this trade. I'm not gonna lie, as much as I love the guy I held my breath every time he went down awkwardly. Still, I'm pulling for him, he's a great story and plays the game with a smile on his face.

Despite how slow PLD looks in the preseason, don't sleep on him. Gabe was on a great pace last year but PLD is usually substantially above that level. He would have been over 70 points last year if he hadn't picked up that knock down the stretch, and that is on a more defensive-minded team. He could struggle a bit, but he could also lead the team in scoring.

The regimen is different from summer and in season.

You can't train in season like you do in the summer.

THis is why he looks so good early in the season and fades and goes out with injuries eventually.

A trend I see continuing and validating Blake's move, even if PLD comes up a bit short of previous point totals.

A trend I see continuing.

Clarke and Spence were in the juniors and AHL while Durzi and Walker were playing last year. If you don't think the Kings would have treated Stutzle or Zegras with some slow boil approach, that's 100% on you at this point.

If Blake didn't let Durzi and Walker maintain or increase their value and instead destroyed it he couldn't have made the off season move he did

 

[Surf Nutz]

Dubois can outscore Vilardi by 25 and will still be a stupid trade.

If they gave up the ghost and took an honest assessment of their properties, they most definitely could have developed one of those prospects - at least one - into bona-fide NHL center by now. But no, they doubled - no tripled down on their own delusions, contracted themselves into a corner with Mr. Surprised He Is Available (at a premium) three years in a row.

And they aren't any closer to winning a damn thing.

They CHOSE to follow this path, and its been a failure from the get-go. Blake is the worst general manager on this franchises history. Nobody has done less with more. Literally had all three options available:
A) Quality vets under contract
B) multiple top ten picks
C) Loads of cap space

Effed them all up. Can't win a round, can't develop a star, can't even ice a full team. Damn near every contract he has signed is an overpayment. Missteps in goal, accepted playing 4 RHDs without finding time to integrate Spence or Clarke.

Dubois is a paper tiger, just like Fiala. Empty points that don't translate into success, just highlights. Neither is a difference maker. The culture here flat out sucks and nobody wants to see it.

Some legit points.
However, untrue on Kings GM history and Fiala and PLD outscoring back spasms by 25 points, especially if he is again injured.
That would slam GV's trade value.

 

[Sol]

MacD as a 4th line center makes sense. Imagine if we had a coach with a brain.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

 

[Johnny Utah]

Lemieux hated him last year. They yapped when we played Toronto.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Kyle Clifford and Kurtis MacDermid both scoring beauties this pre-season while our 4th line has yet to be seen.