Around The League LV

[Proto]

By the way, there's no way Kovalchuk, who averages 26:08 a night right now, is out of shape. Putting him (and Ovi) in the same category as Dustin Byfuglien is... crazy.

I do think Ovechkin has fallen into predictable patterns on offense, mind you. Teams learned to defend a few of his go-to moves, and he needs to spend some time coming up with more creative ways to get his shot on net. He can't solely rely on his phyiscal talents anymore.

 

[Tiranis]

Kovalchuk plays almost 30 minutes a night, in all 3 zones. Any criticism of him being not in shape ends there.

For that matter, as much as I hate Byfuglien he also gets himself in good shape for every season. Yes, he pigs out every offseason but he wouldn't be able to play the minutes he does and put up the points he does if he was out of shape, especially at his height and weight.

 

[absolute garbage]

Proto, are you aware how much Byfuglien plays? And you can't say defensemen are different than forwards because Byfuglien outskates and outbattles Kovalchuk in every game (there's not a lot of players in the league who Byfuglien beats in those areas).

And yeah, it's not about the minutes. It's not about VO2 max, it's not about how much you can lift, it's not about how thick your legs are. It's about body fat, on the top of all that other stuff. It directly impacts your ability to do all that elite level stuff that the best players in the league are able to do. Explosiveness, high speed, doing stuff in high speed, quickly changing rhythms etc.

Just do me a favor and watch some old Kovalchuk/Ovechkin games and after that watch few games from this season for example. You would be amazed how much slower, less explosive and in general different they look on the ice (Kovalchuk especially, who nowadays has a completely different playstyle because he simply can't play like he used to). And like I said, it's no coincidence that their stats are no where near where they used to be, although Kovalchuk has been pretty effective stats wise with that new perimeter style.

 

[pitseleh]

I understand your general point, but at the same time, Ovechkin's shot distance hasn't decreased noticeably in recent years. If you ask me, part of the problem is that he might be slowing down a little, but he's also not playing on a team that's designed for him to get 400-500 shots like he used to.

I feel pretty comfortable in asserting that I think the majority of his problem is simply playing on a team that refuses to play to his unique skillset. It's criminal mismanagement.

That could be true, but the shot totals he was generating were out of this world and he was mostly doing it with crap linemates early in his career. It's just tough to imagine him to fall of the face of the earth in that regard simply because of the team around him. I think it's more likely that it's a decline in his ability (that could be completely unrelated to his physical conditioning) and/or the fact that teams have figured out that he doesn't have a ton of tricks up his sleeve.

 

[Proto]

That could be true, but the shot totals he was generating were out of this world and he was mostly doing it with crap linemates early in his career. It's just tough to imagine him to fall of the face of the earth in that regard simply because of the team around him. I think it's more likely that it's a decline in his ability (that could be completely unrelated to his physical conditioning) and/or the fact that teams have figured out that he doesn't have a ton of tricks up his sleeve.

I think both are factors. I also think three years ago, Ovechkin's game was damaged by George McPhee and Bruce Boudreau deciding that losing to Halak was reason enough to completely change the philosophy of the team. They took a mustang that was running the plains and tied him to a pole for little kids to ride around on. There's nothing worse than taking a high octane offense that generates unreal possession numbers and telling them to play garbage hockey because it's how you win in the playoffs...

Ovechkin's numbers were unrivalled, and the management team reacted by grousing about his long shifts, complaining about his defensive play, and just generally stamping out the things that made him great in order to conform to a traditional winning formula. All that team needed was a goaltender that could handle some end-to-end hockey, maybe a guy like Willie Mitchell or Dan Hamhuis, and a big skilled winger to play with Ovechkin.

Not sure he's ever that guy again, but I still see a top 5 forward in the game on a properly run team. You might see a bit of fire back in him, too.

 

[Potatoe1]

I think both are factors. I also think three years ago, Ovechkin's game was damage by George McPhee and Bruce Boudreau deciding that losing to Halak was reason enough to completely change the philosophy of the team.

That.

There is a huge amount of luck involved in hockey and sometimes you are just unlucky. They should have won against the habs that year and big changes were not needed.

The Caps trying to become a defensive team a few years back was a terrible idea and they really have never recovered.

That decision was GM approved BTW.

If GMMG tells AV to play a more offensive style and we get worse year over year, who's fault is it ?

 

[absolute garbage]

I think it's more likely that it's a decline in his ability (that could be completely unrelated to his physical conditioning) and/or the fact that teams have figured out that he doesn't have a ton of tricks up his sleeve.

I see this thrown around a lot as one of the reasons for the decline, but do you honestly believe that arguably the best and most dominant player in the league at that time is simply shut down after other teams just suddenly figured him out? Isn't that like, unheard of, no matter what sport we are talking about?

Makes zero sense to me. Almost laughable as an excuse IMO. When you are faster, stronger and more dynamic than anyone else in the league, in the words of Boromir, one does not simply figure out something like that. These kind of players have always found a way, and will always find a way, to be the best and the most productive players in the league. Styles may differ but they end up in the same place, and that's the score sheet. And Ovechkin did that early in his career, night after night in a crappy team. The way he carried that team was insane and if you look at those games and compare them to these last few seasons, you barely recognize him as the same player.

 

[me2]

When Ovi was at his peak teams couldn't stop his go to moves. Didn't matter if they knee what was coming or not. Physically he's just that tiny bit off and it's enough.

Guys makes 9.5m so he has to be the difference maker, no matter the system. You shouldn't have to build a system to make the best player in the league work properly.

I agree with whoever said Washington shouldn't have changed their style of play, it worked not for Ovechkin but for the whole team.

Kovalchuk is interesting, NJ spent a year rebuilding him into a 2-way player like we did to Schroeder, and he is a better player. Ovechkin has not adapted and Washington needs to make the call, move the 9.5m that's not working out and prospects and new talent, or revert and hope Ovechkin can be a star.

 

[vanuck]

Didn't they only change their play style after they went on a losing streak part-way through the 10-11 season?

Sure the Caps look bad now, but I think they had the right idea. You need some decent defense to win in the playoffs - even though you can still keep your team identity of playing up-tempo. Look at the Hawks and Pens, for instance. McPhee, however, hasn't acquired enough quality depth players to fill out his team which didn't help matters.

 

[absolute garbage]

Kovalchuk is interesting, NJ spent a year rebuilding him into a 2-way player like we did to Schroeder, and he is a better player.

He's not a better player IMO. Different for sure, but not better. His defensive play has improved to the point where he knows what he has to do. Problem is that the commitment level to actually execute those plays is not there on regular basis. It's still a stretch to call him a 2 way player, and an insult to those guys who actually play a 200ft game effectively. And offensively he's a shadow of his former self.

I see a lot of similarities between "the New Jersey Kovalchuk" and Naslund after the 04/05 lockout. Lost a step, lost explosiveness, less dynamic, less dangerous, less entertaining, transformed to a perimeter player who can't get into better areas on consistent basis. Kovalchuk still has great skills and shot so he's been effective at that role aswell, but what comes to skating and individual efforts, he's no where near those Atlanta years. And I don't think it's the age either, he's not that old. He just looks so sluggish.

 

[vanuck]

When you play 30 mins a game, I think you're inevitably going to look sluggish.

 

[Bieksallent]

Hiller doesn't look good and hasn't yet this season. Good thing they've got Fasth.

 

[Scurr]

I think both are factors. I also think three years ago, Ovechkin's game was damaged by George McPhee and Bruce Boudreau deciding that losing to Halak was reason enough to completely change the philosophy of the team. They took a mustang that was running the plains and tied him to a pole for little kids to ride around on. There's nothing worse than taking a high octane offense that generates unreal possession numbers and telling them to play garbage hockey because it's how you win in the playoffs...

Ovechkin's numbers were unrivalled, and the management team reacted by grousing about his long shifts, complaining about his defensive play, and just generally stamping out the things that made him great in order to conform to a traditional winning formula. All that team needed was a goaltender that could handle some end-to-end hockey, maybe a guy like Willie Mitchell or Dan Hamhuis, and a big skilled winger to play with Ovechkin.

Not sure he's ever that guy again, but I still see a top 5 forward in the game on a properly run team. You might see a bit of fire back in him, too.

I agree with all of this. The Caps needed more consistent goaltending in the playoffs and better luck but instead went about ruining their team. All of those players regressed... that tells you something.

 

[Eddy Punch Clock]

Hiller doesn't look good and hasn't yet this season. Good thing they've got Fasth.

Hey, I thought we weren't allowed to make fun of lisps anymore.

 

[rebel diamond]

Didn't they only change their play style after they went on a losing streak part-way through the 10-11 season?

Sure the Caps look bad now, but I think they had the right idea. You need some decent defense to win in the playoffs - even though you can still keep your team identity of playing up-tempo. Look at the Hawks and Pens, for instance. McPhee, however, hasn't acquired enough quality depth players to fill out his team which didn't help matters.

The single worst move McPhee has made IMO was not hiring a real, long-term coach midway through last season. Oates has gotten a ton of flak for how poorly they've played this year but all the problems relating to new team, new system, etc could've been dealt with if he'd been eased into the position last year. At the very least they could've promoted from within to fill the short-term vacancy last year to get some continuity. This is a team that's on their 3rd head coach in less than a season, each with their own distinct system, and had gone through changes in strategy even towards the end of Boudreau's tenure.

 

[trytobe]

He's not a better player IMO. Different for sure, but not better. His defensive play has improved to the point where he knows what he has to do. Problem is that the commitment level to actually execute those plays is not there on regular basis. It's still a stretch to call him a 2 way player, and an insult to those guys who actually play a 200ft game effectively. And offensively he's a shadow of his former self.

I see a lot of similarities between "the New Jersey Kovalchuk" and Naslund after the 04/05 lockout. Lost a step, lost explosiveness, less dynamic, less dangerous, less entertaining, transformed to a perimeter player who can't get into better areas on consistent basis. Kovalchuk still has great skills and shot so he's been effective at that role aswell, but what comes to skating and individual efforts, he's no where near those Atlanta years. And I don't think it's the age either, he's not that old. He just looks so sluggish.

honestly, i hate getting into internet arguments but i really can't just not address the stuff you're claiming. "offensively he's a shadow of his former self"? what? since joining NJD he's scored at slightly below PPG clip over 3 seasons. With Atlanta that figure was slightly above PPG. by your logic then the sedins are also "shadows of their former self." i would also encourage you to post on the NJD board asking them on their thoughts re: Kovalchuk being an insult to other 200-ft players. this guy gets trusted to play almost 30 minutes a night in all situations and is still producing offensively at an elite pace. i don't know how much more you could possibly ask for in a player. i don't know what you're smoking but i definitely want some of it. seeing as how it's against the rules of this board to spread rumors about players i'm not really sure how you've been allowed to continue posting this crap when all you're really doing is speculating without evidence re: these players' alleged lack of conditioning and high fat percentage (again... what?).

 

[Catamarca Livin]

Because George McPhee has burned through a ton of coaches in a year and a half, has incrementally made his team worse every off-season, has over-paid free agents, and turned the best offense in the NHL into a lame knockoff of the Minnesota Wild because he panicked after his team got beaten by a ridiculously hot goalie (Halak). His tenure the past three seasons is a joke.

I urge people to come up with 2 or 3 good moves McPhee has made that weren't gift-wrapped Top 5 picks. Has he re-signed anyone to a good contract ever? Has he made a smart UFA acquisition at a good price? Right now the Ribeiro move looks like the only successful thing he's done.

He has also shown a complete unwillingness to make a big move to shore up his team's biggest need: goaltending. Seems so obvious watching him that he came from the Brian Burke school of safe management. At least Burke learned his lesson after Vancouver and made the big/necessary moves in Anaheim (and tried to in Toronto but got burned, which happens).

I think i agree with all your critizism. George McPhee was very close to getting fired before hiring Bruce B.. Bruce B. turned the team around seems to be doing the same in Anaheim now. However, Washington seems to have personal to be a very good team still but are just off. The same Anaheim was last year a lot of similarities. They did beat Boston out of the playoffs last year, i do not think the personal is that bad. Adam Oates was sucessful in NJ as well. I think i combination of goaltending and weak psychology with the top players has contributed to a poor start. You are right about making major changes to a winning team. You hear people suggesting the Canucks do the same everyday on HF boards.

 

[deckercky]

The single worst move McPhee has made IMO was not hiring a real, long-term coach midway through last season.

The single worst move he made was forcing the Presidents trophy winning team to change from an up-tempo run and gun team to a trapping team. Playoffs are tough and anyone can lose a round to a defensive system with a hot goalie, but better teams will tend to win more (having mediocre goaltending was another issue they dealt with).

If they had the system running from that president trophy winning team, and were actually backed up by a good goalie like they finally had a chance with in Vokoun, they would've had as good of a chance at the Cup as anyone.

 

[ddawg1950]

Hey, I thought we weren't allowed to make fun of lisps anymore.

Your thinking of Sthlow.

 

[Ainec]

We will not be seeing our Danes compete in Sochi.

Boedker, Nielsen, and Larsen mourns... I'm sure I'm missing someone

 

[absolute garbage]

"offensively he's a shadow of his former self"? what? since joining NJD he's scored at slightly below PPG clip over 3 seasons. With Atlanta that figure was slightly above PPG. by your logic then the sedins are also "shadows of their former self."

No? That's not by my logic, that's by your deduction of my logic, and it's wrong. And yeah, like I said: "Kovalchuk still has great skills and shot so he's been effective at that role aswell". It's just that numbers aren't everything, you know.

i would also encourage you to post on the NJD board asking them on their thoughts re: Kovalchuk being an insult to other 200-ft players. this guy gets trusted to play almost 30 minutes a night in all situations and is still producing offensively at an elite pace. i don't know how much more you could possibly ask for in a player.

I don't have to. And this is kind of irrelevant as I don't really need the hiveminds opinion to come up with one myself, but I actually did go to Devils board early last season when Kovalchuk was playing like absolute garbage and literally doing the team more harm than good. He was giving the puck away consistently, just soft giveaways and misplays, he wasn't interested in defending at all and at the same time he wasn't getting any points either. He turned it around later but it was sad times early in the season.

I went there and asked if anyone else is seeing this and some long time, die hard Devils fans agreed, while some went the denial route. That kind of denial will always happen, just like it did happen with Canucks fans in the Naslund case (until his regression became so blatantly obvious that no one could say otherwise).

I'm glad that Kovalchuk turned his season around and learned how to be effective with his new playstyle and use his current abilities to the max, as you can see in the points that you bravely referred to. One of my best friend has been a huge Devils fan for over 10 years now and some time ago I linked him couple of Kovalchuk's early career highlight videos and you know what he responded? "Who is this player and what team does he play for?"

i don't know what you're smoking but i definitely want some of it. seeing as how it's against the rules of this board to spread rumors about players i'm not really sure how you've been allowed to continue posting this crap when all you're really doing is speculating without evidence re: these players' alleged lack of conditioning and high fat percentage (again... what?).

Isn't it against the rules of this board to accuse other users of smoking in that kind of context? Personal attacks for arguments?

And yeah, these are just educated guesses and ultimately only speculation.

 

[Eddy Punch Clock]

Your thinking of Sthlow.

Thorry, my mithtake.

How do you pronounce Fasth anyways?

 

[deckercky]

Proto, are you aware how much Byfuglien plays? And you can't say defensemen are different than forwards because Byfuglien outskates and outbattles Kovalchuk in every game (there's not a lot of players in the league who Byfuglien beats in those areas).

And yeah, it's not about the minutes. It's not about VO2 max, it's not about how much you can lift, it's not about how thick your legs are. It's about body fat, on the top of all that other stuff. It directly impacts your ability to do all that elite level stuff that the best players in the league are able to do. Explosiveness, high speed, doing stuff in high speed, quickly changing rhythms etc.

Just do me a favor and watch some old Kovalchuk/Ovechkin games and after that watch few games from this season for example. You would be amazed how much slower, less explosive and in general different they look on the ice (Kovalchuk especially, who nowadays has a completely different playstyle because he simply can't play like he used to). And like I said, it's no coincidence that their stats are no where near where they used to be, although Kovalchuk has been pretty effective stats wise with that new perimeter style.

Last year was Kovalchuk's second best year for scoring (he was #5 in the league). His best season was 2003-4, where he was second in the league, and he's had some other seasons where he had a few more points than last year, but last year was only his second top 5 year for scoring.

 

[Scurr]

Last year was Kovalchuk's second best year for scoring (he was #5 in the league). His best season was 2003-4, where he was second in the league, and he's had some other seasons where he had a few more points than last year, but last year was only his second top 5 year for scoring.

If Kovalchuk, Ovechkin and Buff are examples of out of shape fat guys in the NHL... I want them all.

Team spare tire can win the cup.

Add Wellfed and Gomez

who else?

 

[Eddy Punch Clock]

If Kovalchuk, Ovechkin and Buff are examples of out of shape fat guys in the NHL... I want them all.

Team spare tire can win the cup.

Add Wellfed and Gomez

who else?

Arrnot apparently.

Keith Tkachuck could be their trainer.