Around the League 36-But Who's Counting...

[AD Skinner]

I don’t know what’s better (or worse) - winning a Cup and sucking for years on end afterwards, or being pretty good for 10 years straight.

Well we've been through the first option and are maybe about halfway through the second- we'll have to decide then

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I think what *some* may forget, or find unimportant, is that this is the entertainment business. Cups are great - but there’s only one team that can win each year (I know, “more at 11”).

The idea of fielding a very competitive team every year, a team that realistically can win the Cup with some luck/breaks - but without “going for it” by mortgaging the future - is better for business. There are teams out there, markets out there, that can’t sustain a period of shit play without hemorrhaging fans and (I guess more importantly, money).

I don’t know what’s better (or worse) - winning a Cup and sucking for years on end afterwards, or being pretty good for 10 years straight.

Yeah I'm always in this boat. Sustainable competitiveness is more important and how teams should be run, and I say this as someone who is likely only still a fan because of the team doing the opposite (meaning: my experience in '06 is likely what sustained my fandom during the dark years despite completely moving out of NC).

Especially since we can do all of our "loading up" now. I saw a tongue-in-cheek Tweet when the Sens signed Tyler Motte basically saying "exciting for whoever gets Tyler Motte for a 4th at the deadline!" And while of course that's a joke, it's also decidedly how teams operate. I wouldn't be surprised if the Canes see this as another market inefficiency to be exploited. Get a Derek Stepan or a Calvin de Haan at the deadline for a 4th round pick... or just sign him now, get him all year, and for "free."

I also think the trade deadline for competitive teams essentially amounts to playing the lottery. You know the odds are against you. Yes, the more you pay the more likely you are to win. But also your expected value is still losing. It's an interesting questions - does taking your Cup odds from 12% to 16% at the deadline make it worth losing a 1st round pick and a prospect? There's a lot of angles to attack that, and a lot of different scenarios, but I'd say in general for a team like ours, the answer is probably no.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Well we've been through the first option and are maybe about halfway through the second- we'll have to decide then

Yep, totally get that. I was pulling for Edmonton back in ‘06 … so it’s been a while since “my team” won the Cup.

1989 i believe.

 

[Svechhammer]

Begs the question. How satisfied are you with the Borgs plan? Seems the likely hood of them going all in at the expense of the future is slim, so are you happy being one of the "picks to win it all every year" teams? Being a top team year in and year out that knows they make the dance but waits for the perfect storm to win it all.

Honestly, this fanbase desperately needs a long term period of sustained great play, even if it doesn't end up with a Cup. We need that period of time that gets the average fan absolutely hooked on the team and sport that really grows it. So yeah, I very much appreciate the current plan because its taking the time to build the foundation that keeps the team here for the next 25 years, which is important given we went through a period of 5 years or so where it very much looked like we were about to lose the franchise.

And this is why I just shake my head at Florida. This should have been their plan, too. But much like the Marlins, Dolphins, and Heat, teams in that metro just can't help but blow their load on a one year chance just to fall back to mediocrity almost immediately after. And we wonder why they all struggle at the gate. Too much impatience down there.

We have pursued the big names that have been available so they don’t mind trading the future.

The attempted moves we've made recently lead me to believe that the Borg thinks we might be stockpiling assets a little too much right now and that its time to package some of them to push us over the top. And, lets be honest, its unlikely the moves we were trying to make would have had any major impact to our ability to maintain the high level of play we already expect for the next decade or so.

Well we've been through the first option and are maybe about halfway through the second- we'll have to decide then

Honestly, I think last year we entered what will probably be a 10 year window for the franchise. With the expected rise in the cap the next few years, we should be able to fit most of our key pieces into the fold without sacrificing too much, and if the time comes that we do have to let someone go the front office has proven time and again they have backup plans for their backup plans ready to go. I see our trajectory along the lines as the Caps, a really good regular season team that annually hits a roadblock in the playoffs until maybe 1 or 2 years where it all comes together and they hit the jackpot. And the Caps have basically been that kind of team for the last 15 years. As long as we don't sell the farm to go for it on any given year, I don't see any reason why we don't stay where we are for a while, give or take 10 points in the standings every year.

 

[hurricure]

watching a competitive team year after year has been awesome and I'm riding that wave for sure....BUT...watching your team win the cup could be a once in a lifetime thing (sorry nucks and sabers). I had a knuckle mark in my ceiling from when Kabs scored in game 7 i jumped so f***ing high, I've never been that excited and still think about it happily to this day....I TAKE CUP OVER COMPETATIVE 10/10....

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Well we've been through the first option and are maybe about halfway through the second- we'll have to decide then

hopefully we win at least 1 cup with this core and during this run so we don't get to find out

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

And this is why I just shake my head at Florida. This should have been their plan, too. But much like the Marlins, Dolphins, and Heat, teams in that metro just can't help but blow their load on a one year chance just to fall back to mediocrity almost immediately after. And we wonder why they all struggle at the gate. Too much impatience down there.

Heat can't really be lumped in with any of those other teams. Yes they lucked into LeBron's decision bullshit to win 2 championships but under Pat Riley (as HC and GM) they've had consistent success throughout pretty much their entire history, with a Finals win before LeBron and another appearance recently after him and Wade and Bosh were all gone.

 

[Svechhammer]

Heat can't really be lumped in with any of those other teams. Yes they lucked into LeBron's decision bullshit to win 2 championships but under Pat Riley (as HC and GM) they've had consistent success throughout pretty much their entire history, with a Finals win before LeBron and another appearance recently after him and Wade and Bosh were all gone.

While I agree, that Finals appearance before Lebron was right after they got Shaq for a couple years, soo...

But yeah, they're the closest that area has to a slow build, and even then its been driven by convincing elite players to come in for a year or 2, like Jimmy Butler, who by no means is home grown.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

While I agree, that Finals appearance before Lebron was right after they got Shaq for a couple years, soo...

But yeah, they're the closest that area has to a slow build, and even then its been driven by convincing elite players to come in for a year or 2, like Jimmy Butler, who by no means is home grown.

"But much like the Marlins, Dolphins, and Heat, teams in that metro just can't help but blow their load on a one year chance just to fall back to mediocrity almost immediately after."

Yes they got guys like LeBron and Shaq and Jimmy in FA/trade but those weren't moves to go all in on 1 year chances and falling to mediocrity without them. They've had success in their history without any of those 3 players too. In between LeBron and Jimmy they still made the playoffs a few times, with a series win (over the Hornets of course...). Plus I'd argue that neither Shaq or Jimmy at the times Miami got them were elite players. Jimmy has developed into an elite player under Spoelstra but before that he had jumped around 3 different teams with a few short stints. Shaq had clearly fallen off from his Lakers days, was still very very good but Wade was the core piece on that team and he was home grown.

 

[HisIceness]

Dolphins are very good in free agency but their front office is not very competent.

The Heat once Riley came in as a coach have always been competitive but it wasn't until Wade (and then traded for Shaq) that they shed the choker label.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

The odds of a late 1st pick turning into anything more than a jag are low for the criticism they receive if a team doesn’t go deep. For every David Pastrnak, there are 10+ Josh Ho-Sangs. I see less mortgaging the future and more destroying fan false hope that a contender can maintain or improve their core internally. The greater opportunity cost may be the inability to make other trades. Florida has very limited flexibility to trade further in the short-term now.

 

[Svechhammer]

The odds of a late 1st pick turning into anything more than a jag are low for the criticism they receive if a team doesn’t go deep. For every David Pastrnak, there are 10+ Josh Ho-Sangs. I see less mortgaging the future and more destroying fan false hope that a contender can maintain or improve their core internally. The greater opportunity cost may be the inability to make other trades. Florida has very limited flexibility to trade further in the short-term now.

I mean even if you don't grab a superstar with a late 1st, you're still more often than not going to find some guys who can compete for a quality depth role within a few years or at the very least have good trade fodder for deadline/offseason moves. Combine the lack of picks that Florida has with a genuinely poor prospect pool and I just don't at all like what they've done lately. I feel like where they are right now is their peak, and its all downhill from here for them. And really, their best days might already be behind them with what they had last year.

 

[NotOpie]

Honestly, for a top-pairing RHD, which is probably the second-most coveted position in the NHL outside of 1C, that's a pretty solid cap hit for the Flames. Honestly, for all the folks talking about the Huberdeau vs. Tkachuk side of things, it's the loss of Weegar that is the most likely to be the downfall of this trade for the Panthers, because seriously, his ability to seamlessly play both sides of the ice is what prevented Florida's left side from diving off a cliff. Just look at what the Cats have right now playing on the left

Honestly, if you start a sentence with "honestly", does that mean you were dishonest up to that point?

Food & LTOR in every thread now? I approve.

It's a bad hobbit we've gotten into.

 

[Stickpucker]

Food & LTOR in every thread now? I approve.

So do you guys think Sauron was a Bojangles or KFC kinda guy?

I think what *some* may forget, or find unimportant, is that this is the entertainment business. Cups are great - but there’s only one team that can win each year (I know, “more at 11”).

The idea of fielding a very competitive team every year, a team that realistically can win the Cup with some luck/breaks - but without “going for it” by mortgaging the future - is better for business. There are teams out there, markets out there, that can’t sustain a period of shit play without hemorrhaging fans and (I guess more importantly, money).

I don’t know what’s better (or worse) - winning a Cup and sucking for years on end afterwards, or being pretty good for 10 years straight.

Is there an option 3 where you're competitive for 7 years and when the end is near push in the rest of your chips and really try and get 1 or 2 before year 10 when the wheels fall off?

 

[Lempo]

That reminds me of my diet .
It's a see food diet.
I see food I eat food.
Makes grocery shopping a pain in the tail

As limericks go, that's kind of bad.

 

[MustardStew]

So do you guys think Sauron was a Bojangles or KFC kinda guy?

Oh, 'jangles for sure... He likes lava

Is there an option 3 where you're competitive for 7 years and when the end is near push in the rest of your chips and really try and get 1 or 2 before year 10 when the wheels fall off?

The Bruins are trying a similar method right now

 

[Tryamw]

As limericks go, that's kind of bad.

I put myself out there and all I get are rocks and sticks.. (and a nice hospital bed.)

And um... a bigger bill.

 

[WreckingCrew]

So do you guys think Sauron was a Bojangles or KFC kinda guy?

...Taco Bell

 

[Derailed75]

...Taco Bell

The real question in this is whos number 2, Popeyes or KFC? Cause Bo is the undisputed champ of crappy fried chicken. Also the fight club-esk parking lots!

 

[Discipline Daddy]

A lot of teams have gone half in or all in recently. Teams that I didn't think had a great chance at winning it all. I think the Canes are positioned pretty perfectly right now. We have basically 0 cap space this year and will be operating with LTIR headaches. But after that, we have tremendous flexibility. The Canes are in a slightly terrifying spot because we have basically no one signed after 3 years. But we also have the room to sign a slew of players next offseason.

I think we're well positioned for that reason. A lot of the teams in the league are already cap strapped for the 2023 offseason. And of the teams that have a bunch of space, most of them are bad. We're in a unique spot that's mostly because we have locked in none of our depth pieces at long term (you could say Kotkaniemi but I'm assuming they consider him a 2C level asset). I think Aho and Slavin will be extended long term when the time comes, but I'm not sure about anyone else.

It's an interesting strategy. As we've said all along, it will require us draft well. But I think as long as the team is good, we can find veterans like Stastny to take a 1 or 2 year deal here for a chance to win. Probably better to find guys like that at a low term than to lock in 6 years with Barclay Goodrow.

Lastly, I've never seen an NHL team operate like we have. It's possible it does fail as it is a unique blueprint. On the moves I've doubted the borg, more often than not it's worked out. Most dice rolls have been favorable. I'm not sure how much of that is Tulsky genius and how much of that is, in fact, luck.

 

[Derailed75]

A lot of teams have gone half in or all in recently. Teams that I didn't think had a great chance at winning it all. I think the Canes are positioned pretty perfectly right now. We have basically 0 cap space this year and will be operating with LTIR headaches. But after that, we have tremendous flexibility. The Canes are in a slightly terrifying spot because we have basically no one signed after 3 years. But we also have the room to sign a slew of players next offseason.

I think we're well positioned for that reason. A lot of the teams in the league are already cap strapped for the 2023 offseason. And of the teams that have a bunch of space, most of them are bad. We're in a unique spot that's mostly because we have locked in none of our depth pieces at long term (you could say Kotkaniemi but I'm assuming they consider him a 2C level asset). I think Aho and Slavin will be extended long term when the time comes, but I'm not sure about anyone else.

It's an interesting strategy. As we've said all along, it will require us draft well. But I think as long as the team is good, we can find veterans like Stastny to take a 1 or 2 year deal here for a chance to win. Probably better to find guys like that at a low term than to lock in 6 years with Barclay Goodrow.

Lastly, I've never seen an NHL team operate like we have. It's possible it does fail as it is a unique blueprint. On the moves I've doubted the borg, more often than not it's worked out. Most dice rolls have been favorable. I'm not sure how much of that is Tulsky genius and how much of that is, in fact, luck.

Was Svech's deal last year a 7 year deal? That would put him here for 5 seasons after the upcoming one.


PS Just checked he signed an 8 year deal. He is a Canes through the 28-29 season.



You must have forgotten about him, its the off season I dont blame you.


They all forget about Dre'

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Was Svech's deal last year a 7 year deal? That would put him here for 5 seasons after the upcoming one.


PS Just checked he signed an 8 year deal. He is a Canes through the 28-29 season.



You must have forgotten about him, its the off season I dont blame you.


They all forget about Dre'

No obviously we have two players signed long term - Svechnikov and Kotkaniemi. But if you look around the league, most teams have several guys signed 4 years or more. The Rangers have 7. Caps on the low end with 3. Most teams seem to have at least 5. It's rare to have just two guys truly locked in, and it's rarer still to have almost the whole team up for renewal within 2.


Oh I heard a peep somewhere that Jordan Staal was not interested in retiring next year, that he felt he has more years left in him. I thought that was good to hear. I don't think he'll play til 40, but he just turned 34 and I think he could go to 37 or 38 if he wanted to. I'd love to see him sign here for 2 years, $3M per or 3 years at $2.5M per. That'd be low but it honestly depends on how many points he scores this year. For my money he'd be worth up to $4 or $5M next year just for his defense alone but I know many of you would disagree with that assessment.

 

[Derailed75]

No obviously we have two players signed long term - Svechnikov and Kotkaniemi. But if you look around the league, most teams have several guys signed 4 years or more. The Rangers have 7. Caps on the low end with 3. Most teams seem to have at least 5. It's rare to have just two guys truly locked in, and it's rarer still to have almost the whole team up for renewal within 2.


Oh I heard a peep somewhere that Jordan Staal was not interested in retiring next year, that he felt he has more years left in him. I thought that was good to hear. I don't think he'll play til 40, but he just turned 34 and I think he could go to 37 or 38 if he wanted to. I'd love to see him sign here for 2 years, $3M per or 3 years at $2.5M per. That'd be low but it honestly depends on how many points he scores this year. For my money he'd be worth up to $4 or $5M next year just for his defense alone but I know many of you would disagree with that assessment.

I know Staal gets a lot of flack for his less than ideal scoring but he is almost as important to this team as RBA is IMHO!

 

[Stickpucker]

No obviously we have two players signed long term - Svechnikov and Kotkaniemi. But if you look around the league, most teams have several guys signed 4 years or more. The Rangers have 7. Caps on the low end with 3. Most teams seem to have at least 5. It's rare to have just two guys truly locked in, and it's rarer still to have almost the whole team up for renewal within 2.


Oh I heard a peep somewhere that Jordan Staal was not interested in retiring next year, that he felt he has more years left in him. I thought that was good to hear. I don't think he'll play til 40, but he just turned 34 and I think he could go to 37 or 38 if he wanted to. I'd love to see him sign here for 2 years, $3M per or 3 years at $2.5M per. That'd be low but it honestly depends on how many points he scores this year. For my money he'd be worth up to $4 or $5M next year just for his defense alone but I know many of you would disagree with that assessment.

Now that is some juicy bait but I ain't biting

No way
No sir

 

[Derailed75]

Now that is some juicy bait but I ain't biting

No way
No sir

You're not baitin!