Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

[GoldenBearHockey]

The money is probably fine. As always, it's the length of term which makes it a bad contract. GMs are being so short-sighted in this area, and I think they don't care because whoever the GM happens to be at the time of the signing knows he won't be around at the last 3-4 years of the deal.

It's not that they don't care, OR that they are short sighted, it's literally the nature of the business they are in, their job is to create winning hockey teams, they have at their disposal, a hard cap, they then have to make decisions on how to allocate that cap and the type of players they want to sign. All 31 GMs want to sign young, fast, skilled players at every position, to league minimum deals. Now in reality, that won't happen, player's like Tavares, Marner, Matthews, Eichel, McDavid, Draisaitl, etc etc, have all the bargaining power, to a point, they can't go past 7 or 8 years, and a percentage of cap. In a sport where your average career is 3.5 years, the players are not going to voluntary give up any term, or any money, not when you can lose your career over a hit, an errant puck, etc. So when you are healthy and talented, you scratch out the longest, richest, deal you can, while you can.

GMs who don't give out those deals, don't work in the league, period.

 

[KINGS17]

It's not that they don't care, OR that they are short sighted, it's literally the nature of the business they are in, their job is to create winning hockey teams, they have at their disposal, a hard cap, they then have to make decisions on how to allocate that cap and the type of players they want to sign. All 31 GMs want to sign young, fast, skilled players at every position, to league minimum deals. Now in reality, that won't happen, player's like Tavares, Marner, Matthews, Eichel, McDavid, Draisaitl, etc etc, have all the bargaining power, to a point, they can't go past 7 or 8 years, and a percentage of cap. In a sport where your average career is 3.5 years, the players are not going to voluntary give up any term, or any money, not when you can lose your career over a hit, an errant puck, etc. So when you are healthy and talented, you scratch out the longest, richest, deal you can, while you can.

GMs who don't give out those deals, don't work in the league, period.

Seems to me GMs are getting the job done right now in Colorado, St. Louis, and for the New York Islanders without handing out stupid contracts. The Islanders let Tavares walk rather than give in to his demands. Granted the decision to not trade him was a bad one, but live and learn.

All those teams are in a damn sight better shape than the Kings are in today with the 8-year contracts they handed out over the last few years.

 

[crassbonanza]

Seems to me GMs are getting the job done right now in Colorado, St. Louis, and for the New York Islanders without handing out stupid contracts. The Islanders let Tavares walk rather than give in to his demands. Granted the decision to not trade him was a bad one, but live and learn.

All those teams are in a damn sight better shape than the Kings are in today with the 8-year contracts they handed out over the last few years.

You don't think Barzal and Rantanen are going to get 8 year deals? You don't think people are going to be bitching about the O'Reilly contract when he is 30 in a year or so? Also, it's great that you have listed 3 teams that haven't won shit. The Blues might pull it off tonight, but I bet that if you were a Blues fan you would have been all over the boards bitching about the team and calling for a full tear down rebuild in the middle of the season.

 

[johnjm22]

The money is probably fine. As always, it's the length of term which makes it a bad contract. GMs are being so short-sighted in this area, and I think they don't care because whoever the GM happens to be at the time of the signing knows he won't be around at the last 3-4 years of the deal.

Yeah. I don't think it's a great signing. These big UFA deals rarely workout. Just pointing out the deal is on par with others.

I feel like Buffalo is desperate. The botched the ROR trade and feel like they need to do something.

 

[tomd]

Seems to me GMs are getting the job done right now in Colorado, St. Louis, and for the New York Islanders without handing out stupid contracts. The Islanders let Tavares walk rather than give in to his demands. Granted the decision to not trade him was a bad one, but live and learn.

All those teams are in a damn sight better shape than the Kings are in today with the 8-year contracts they handed out over the last few years.

Every team faces that crossroad though. The NYI would have gladly given Tavares a ton of money but he wanted to play in Toronto. Colorado will have some huge decisions on contracts for Landeskog, Rantanen, and MacKinnon in the next few years. I doubt that any of them walk. St Louis is in a bit of a different situation...they don't know any true superstars but have made big commitments to their core and acquired O'Reilly last summer. Maybe that is the key...don't pay the true superstars but assemble a solid core at the level right below that. If that is true, the Kings were victims of their own drafting in getting Kopitar and Doughty. Once they acquired superstar status they got paid as such. Serious question though...should the Kings have done to Doughty what Ottawa did with Karlsson? Some valid arguments to be made on both sides of that question.

 

[KINGS17]

You don't think Barzal and Rantanen are going to get 8 year deals? You don't think people are going to be *****ing about the O'Reilly contract when he is 30 in a year or so? Also, it's great that you have listed 3 teams that haven't won ****. The Blues might pull it off tonight, but I bet that if you were a Blues fan you would have been all over the boards *****ing about the team and calling for a full tear down rebuild in the middle of the season.

Rantanen is only 22 years old, and as an RFA he doesn't have any leverage. Let's see what happens, but I think the right thing to do is for Sakic to do something similar to what Lombardi did with Doughty's second contract. Barzal won't reach RFA status until the season after next.

I listed three teams that are up and comers, especially Colorado in the Western Conference. If Colorado manages this draft and their salary cap well, will likely be contenders for the next 3-4 years.

Don't look now, but St. Louis might win a Stanley Cup tonight. St. Louis had quite a few injuries early in the season. Schwartz, Steen, and others missed a significant amount of regular season games. Also, it took them a while to figure out Binnington should be their 1G. Blues also have quite a few players in the 27-29 year old range. Now is their time, if they are going to win a cup.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Every team faces that crossroad though. The NYI would have gladly given Tavares a ton of money but he wanted to play in Toronto. Colorado will have some huge decisions on contracts for Landeskog, Rantanen, and MacKinnon in the next few years. I doubt that any of them walk. St Louis is in a bit of a different situation...they don't know any true superstars but have made big commitments to their core and acquired O'Reilly last summer. Maybe that is the key...don't pay the true superstars but assemble a solid core at the level right below that. If that is true, the Kings were victims of their own drafting in getting Kopitar and Doughty. Once they acquired superstar status they got paid as such. Serious question though...should the Kings have done to Doughty what Ottawa did with Karlsson? Some valid arguments to be made on both sides of that question.

Completely different atmosphere's though, not even in the same realm of reality. Karlsson had issues with players (from what I understand) never won jack there, didn't see a bright future, knew the owner was gonna be tight on money etc.

Doughty, had won 2 cups there, knew ownership had money and was willing to spend it, saw a plan he liked from Blake (assumption) etc....

As far as St. Louis, I guess it depends on what you call superstar, Tarasenko is one, Pietrangelo is one, they acquired O'Reilly, etc, their window is this year and next, and this year, they were dead in the water in January, not sure why they are even brought up in the discussion, because they rode a hot goaltender to the finals? Lets watch them sustain it, and watch what happens when Schenn has to be resigned, Blais has to be resigned, Pietrangelo, Dunn, Edmundson etc.....

 

[KINGS17]

Every team faces that crossroad though. The NYI would have gladly given Tavares a ton of money but he wanted to play in Toronto. Colorado will have some huge decisions on contracts for Landeskog, Rantanen, and MacKinnon in the next few years. I doubt that any of them walk. St Louis is in a bit of a different situation...they don't know any true superstars but have made big commitments to their core and acquired O'Reilly last summer. Maybe that is the key...don't pay the true superstars but assemble a solid core at the level right below that. If that is true, the Kings were victims of their own drafting in getting Kopitar and Doughty. Once they acquired superstar status they got paid as such. Serious question though...should the Kings have done to Doughty what Ottawa did with Karlsson? Some valid arguments to be made on both sides of that question.

Mc Kinnon is signed for four more seasons. Colorado is in excellent shape with his contract, if he continues to grow as a player. Rantanen is a 22-year old RFA. I don't think Sakic should go crazy with term and cap hit, as he may need the flexibility to acquire the last couple of pieces for his puzzle.

The Kings mistake with Kopitar and Doughty was the third contract, especially with Kopitar.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Rantanen is only 22 years old, and as an RFA he doesn't have any leverage. Let's see what happens, but I think the right thing to do is for Sakic to do something similar to what Lombardi did with Doughty's second contract. Barzal won't reach RFA status until the season after next.

I listed three teams that are up and comers, especially Colorado in the Western Conference. If Colorado manages this draft and their salary cap well, will likely be contenders for the next 3-4 years.

Don't look now, but St. Louis might win a Stanley Cup tonight. St. Louis had quite a few injuries early in the season. Schwartz, Steen, and others missed a significant amount of regular season games. Also, it took them a while to figure out Binnington should be their 1G. Blues also have quite a few players in the 27-29 year old range. Now is their time, if they are going to win a cup.

Don't look now, but St. Louis might win a Stanley Cup tonight, absolutely, but.....where was their bandwagon in January? You say they have done it without a bonafide superstar, and well that might be.....they were DOA in January and needed a coaching change...and a hot as hell goaltender to get there......where do you think they are next year if they let Pietrangelo leave, because they won't sign him to an 8 year deal? Or they let Binnington pull a Nylander??

 

[crassbonanza]

Rantanen is only 22 years old, and as an RFA he doesn't have any leverage. Let's see what happens, but I think the right thing to do is for Sakic to do something similar to what Lombardi did with Doughty's second contract. Barzal won't reach RFA status until the season after next.

Did you see the Matthews contract? I have a feeling we are going to see an overhaul of how RFA contracts go, this offseason will be very telling. You are either going to see 8 year deals or shorter deals that take the players right to free agency. Also, Barzal only has one year remaining on his current deal and I'm not sure what that has to do with our discussion.

I listed three teams that are up and comers, especially Colorado in the Western Conference. If Colorado manages this draft and their salary cap well, will likely be contenders for the next 3-4 years.

Cool, you listed 3 teams at a different place. The comparison doesn't have much value, because they have different realities.

Don't look now, but St. Louis might win a Stanley Cup tonight. St. Louis had quite a few injuries early in the season. Schwartz, Steen, and others missed a significant amount of regular season games. Also, it took them a while to figure out Binnington should be their 1G. Blues also have quite a few players in the 27-29 year old range. Now is their time, if they are going to win a cup.

That was my point. A lot of people were so sure that the team should be torn apart this season when things were looking bad. That the team didn't have a chance of competing, now we are seeing that those keyboard GM's were wrong. I also don't understand your reasoning behind saying that now is their time if they are going to win a cup, are you seriously basing your entire argument based on them having some players in their late 20's?

 

[KINGS17]

Don't look now, but St. Louis might win a Stanley Cup tonight, absolutely, but.....where was their bandwagon in January? You say they have done it without a bonafide superstar, and well that might be.....they were DOA in January and needed a coaching change...and a hot as hell goaltender to get there......where do you think they are next year if they let Pietrangelo leave, because they won't sign him to an 8 year deal? Or they let Binnington pull a Nylander??

It would be a big mistake for the Blues to give Pietrangelo an 8-year extension this off season, which would be a contract that wouldn't end until he was 37 or 38 years of age.

 

[crassbonanza]

It would be a big mistake for the Blues to give Pietrangelo an 8-year extension this off season, which would be a contract that wouldn't end until he was 37 or 38 years of age.

Are you seriously advocating that a team in the Stanley Cup Finals should let go of their number 1 defenseman because he will be 37 at the end of his 8 year deal? That is peak ridiculousness.

 

[tomd]

Mc Kinnon is signed for four more seasons. Colorado is in excellent shape with his contract, if he continues to grow as a player. Rantanen is a 22-year old RFA. I don't think Sakic should go crazy with term and cap hit, as he may need the flexibility to acquire the last couple of pieces for his puzzle.

The Kings mistake with Kopitar and Doughty was the third contract, especially with Kopitar.

MacKinnon's 3rd contract will be when he is 28 years old and theoretically in his prime. He is below market right now and is one of the top 10 players in the league. He'll demand the moon and I don't think Colorado lets him walk but we'll see. Rantanen is going to get paid big time even though he is an RFA. Sakic will really struggle to keep his salary below MacKinnon's. In today's market, Rantanen is worth $7 million +.

I tend to agree with you on 3rd contracts though...they are long term losers in almost every case. But it is really the 2nd contracts that have given rise to the insanity of the 3rd. Elite players have their teams over a barrel...they either sign players like Doughty or Kopitar or let them walk or trade them for below value. None of those choices are particularly appealing to a GM.

 

[tomd]

Completely different atmosphere's though, not even in the same realm of reality. Karlsson had issues with players (from what I understand) never won jack there, didn't see a bright future, knew the owner was gonna be tight on money etc.

Doughty, had won 2 cups there, knew ownership had money and was willing to spend it, saw a plan he liked from Blake (assumption) etc....

As far as St. Louis, I guess it depends on what you call superstar, Tarasenko is one, Pietrangelo is one, they acquired O'Reilly, etc, their window is this year and next, and this year, they were dead in the water in January, not sure why they are even brought up in the discussion, because they rode a hot goaltender to the finals? Lets watch them sustain it, and watch what happens when Schenn has to be resigned, Blais has to be resigned, Pietrangelo, Dunn, Edmundson etc.....

I understand the difference between Karlsson and Doughty. But set that aside for a minute. Would a small market team like Ottawa EVER sign a player to a 8 figure long term salary? There are many here who decry the Kings signing Doughty to such a contract. It doesn't look like a great move now but let's say the Kings retool and are aggressive this summer and Doughty returns to form. What then? Cases can be made in either direction.

 

[KINGS17]

Did you see the Matthews contract? I have a feeling we are going to see an overhaul of how RFA contracts go, this offseason will be very telling. You are either going to see 8 year deals or shorter deals that take the players right to free agency. Also, Barzal only has one year remaining on his current deal and I'm not sure what that has to do with our discussion.



Cool, you listed 3 teams at a different place. The comparison doesn't have much value, because they have different realities.


That was my point. A lot of people were so sure that the team should be torn apart this season when things were looking bad. That the team didn't have a chance of competing, now we are seeing that those keyboard GM's were wrong. I also don't understand your reasoning behind saying that now is their time if they are going to win a cup, are you seriously basing your entire argument based on them having some players in their late 20's?

Yes, I saw the Matthews contract. Did you see the McKinnon contract? That was a much better deal, only seven years at a much lower cap hit. McKinnon was willing to prove himself, and will be a UFA at age 26-27. Who is to say Sakic can't do it again with Rantanen? A think the team would be much better served if the GM gives their best RFA a nice raise, and buys one year of their UFA status. Your team likely has to win during that second contract though, because you will either lose the player via trade or him walking when he becomes a UFA, or wreck your salary cap with the big third contract.

Someone else brought up Barzal in the conversation, I didn't.

To be honest, I didn't follow the Blues closely at the beginning of the season other than to know they were near the bottom of the standings, but had quite a few injuries to key players early in the season.

I brought up three teams that have different realities, than going to the other extreme Toronto, because their GMs set them up for those different realities.

 

[KINGS17]

Are you seriously advocating that a team in the Stanley Cup Finals should let go of their number 1 defenseman because he will be 37 at the end of his 8 year deal? That is peak ridiculousness.

Yeah, I am saying St. Louis maybe has one more year after this one left in their window after this season. It would be foolish to sign Petro to an 8-year deal that wouldn't start until he is 30-31 years of age. Doing that is poor cap and roster management.

 

[KINGS17]

MacKinnon's 3rd contract will be when he is 28 years old and theoretically in his prime. He is below market right now and is one of the top 10 players in the league. He'll demand the moon and I don't think Colorado lets him walk but we'll see. Rantanen is going to get paid big time even though he is an RFA. Sakic will really struggle to keep his salary below MacKinnon's. In today's market, Rantanen is worth $7 million +.

I tend to agree with you on 3rd contracts though...they are long term losers in almost every case. But it is really the 2nd contracts that have given rise to the insanity of the 3rd. Elite players have their teams over a barrel...they either sign players like Doughty or Kopitar or let them walk or trade them for below value. None of those choices are particularly appealing to a GM.

McKinnon's prime is right now. I don't get why everyone here insists a player is in his prime at age 28-36. It simply isn't true.

 

[crassbonanza]

Yeah, I am saying St. Louis maybe has one more year after this one left in their window after this season. It would be foolish to sign Petro to an 8-year deal that wouldn't start until he is 30-31 years of age. Doing that is poor cap and roster management.

If they don't re-sign him then they don't have any years left in their window. They basically are throwing in the towel. Why is it poor cap and roster management? The goal is to win the f***ing Stanley Cup, not to have a lot of cap space. In the cap era all teams basically go through cycles, if the Blue are planning on rebuilding in 4 years then having Pietrangelo around when he is declining doesn't matter. However, having him around when you are a contender does matter. For the life of me the fetish with dumping players for cap space is beyond me, it is like fans don't even want to win, just have the youngest team taking up the least amount of cap

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I said in a previous post that of course there’s a chance Vilardi can recover and have a successful career. There’s also a chance the Kings win the Cup next year.

But judging by every reasonable metric, neither of those things will happen. Neither Muzzin nor Williams missed an entire season when they were developing prospects.

What? Muzzin missed an entire season. Season and a half, actually.

"When Muzzin was 16, his hockey career was derailed after he suffered a herniated disc. He underwent surgery to repair the precarious ailment and wound up missing more than a year of action.

“For a little bit it kind of felt that hockey was done for me,” he said. “It was a difficult time and it made me not take hockey for granted.
“When you’re that young and out for over a year with a back injury it’s a difficult situation to deal with.”

But Muzzin had belief in the surgeon and the recovery plan. He returned in time to play the final 37 games for the 2006-07 Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds and two rounds of the playoffs. He exhibited enough for the Pittsburgh Penguins to select Muzzin in the fifth round (141st overall) of the 2007 draft.

But the teenager failed to demonstrate enough in the next two seasons of junior for the Penguins to sign him to an entry-level contract. Therefore, Muzzin re-entered the draft in 2009, but his name wasn’t called as he sat through seven rounds and 211 selections."


Long and winding path leads to veteran status for Muzzin

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

St. Louis has 7 players signed beyond next year, they're taking big advantage of guys' 2nd deals right now. You'd better believe the grim cap reaper is coming for them shortly. i would not assert they've done anything magnificent management wise, save maybe the Parayko deal for now. They've got some major youth needing deals soon and then a top-5 d-man that needs a modern market contract.

Basically every team that currently looks genius is just one that hasn't had to pay anyone yet. Let's see what TB does with Point and TO does with Marner.

 

[tomd]

McKinnon's prime is right now. I don't get why everyone here insists a player is in his prime at age 28-36. It simply isn't true.

Never claimed that a player's prime is 28-36 but that is what the reality of a 3rd contract is. If he is like most other players, he'll remain at a top competitive level from the ages of 28-30 then start to decline. How fast and how much is player specific. But the problem is that teams have to make a decision when the player is 27-28 and the player will demand a 7-8 year deal (wouldn't you?). Teams obviously know they won't get their money's worth after about age 32-34 but that is of little solace in the contract negotiations. Unless Colorado has a ready to go 1C in 4 years to replace MacKinnon, they'll have a real difficult time not paying him. Just like the Kings had to pay Kopitar and Doughty for the EXACT same reasons.

 

[KINGS17]

If they don't re-sign him then they don't have any years left in their window. They basically are throwing in the towel. Why is it poor cap and roster management? The goal is to win the ****ing Stanley Cup, not to have a lot of cap space. In the cap era all teams basically go through cycles, if the Blue are planning on rebuilding in 4 years then having Pietrangelo around when he is declining doesn't matter. However, having him around when you are a contender does matter. For the life of me the fetish with dumping players for cap space is beyond me, it is like fans don't even want to win, just have the youngest team taking up the least amount of cap

Pietrangelo has one more year remaining on his deal. The window doesn't close if the Blues don't re-sign him this off season. I would stand pat over the summer, unless he is willing to sign a team friendly deal when it comes to the term. His agent will likely want the 8 years though, and that would be a mistake.

 

[KINGS17]

Never claimed that a player's prime is 28-36 but that is what the reality of a 3rd contract is. If he is like most other players, he'll remain at a top competitive level from the ages of 28-30 then start to decline. How fast and how much is player specific. But the problem is that teams have to make a decision when the player is 27-28 and the player will demand a 7-8 year deal (wouldn't you?). Teams obviously know they won't get their money's worth after about age 32-34 but that is of little solace in the contract negotiations. Unless Colorado has a ready to go 1C in 4 years to replace MacKinnon, they'll have a real difficult time not paying him. Just like the Kings had to pay Kopitar and Doughty for the EXACT same reasons.

Let's see what Colorado gets with their 1st round pick this year and how that pans out over the next 4 seasons before we decide they have to give McKinnon 8 years on his next deal.

No, the Kings didn't have to give Kopitar 8 years. That has proven to be a mistake. They haven't won a single playoff game with Kopitar on that deal.

 

[crassbonanza]

Pietrangelo has one more year remaining on his deal. The window doesn't close if the Blues don't re-sign him this off season. I would stand pat over the summer, unless he is willing to sign a team friendly deal when it comes to the term. His agent will likely want the 8 years though, and that would be a mistake.

Do you also think that the Bergeron deal was a mistake for the Bruins? He signed an 8 year deal when he was 29. How about Marchand? He signed an 8 year deal when he was 28. Horrible decisions right?

 

[tomd]

Let's see what Colorado gets with their 1st round pick this year and how that pans out over the next 4 seasons before we decide they have to give McKinnon 8 years on his next deal.

No, the Kings didn't have to give Kopitar 8 years. That has proven to be a mistake. They haven't won a single playoff game with Kopitar on that deal.

Colorado is fortunate to be in that position to get a replacement for MacKinnon in this draft. I doubt they will but they'll get a solid player.

As for Kopitar, the hardest thing to find in the NHL is a 6'4" #1c would can score and play defense. The Kings had one in his prime. It was a no brainer to sign him. Thirty-one teams out of 31 would have done the same thing. The real mistake was not providing a supporting cast this past year. Give him a good coach and a legitimate top 6 LW and his numbers will bounce back. It's up to Blake to make that happen. If he doesn't, he will justify your opinion that signing him to a 3rd contract was wrong.