Around the League '18-'19

[YP44]

Solid deal for Fleury, I don't even know why I bother going to that cesspool known as the main board.

3 years is the right term for both parties. Given his career, last season, and how much he means to that team 7 million is fair. I'd bet the average for a goalie combo in the NHL is right in that range, probably 5-7 for a primary and 825-2 for that backup. Subban and Legace combined make 1.3.

Look for Engelland to get another 3 year deal, probably in the 5 per range. Those guys are the face of the team.

is the main board not in favor? Are people saying it is too much money or too much term or both? I think it is a fair deal. He obviously can still perform at a an elite level.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Tampa looks good with their young players, but this was also a team who has just now tried to buy.

History of NHL trades by the Tampa Bay Lightning - NHL Trade Tracker

They haven't made any big deals to push them over the top yet. Granted, they have a talented young core, but Lombardi has traded several first round picks and talented young players to acquire the players to push the Kings over the edge.

Tampa's core IS younger, but they still have a narrow window to succeed due to the contracts handed out.

The grass is greener on the other side, but they have their own fertilizer they will have to deal with shortly.

It's already begun with McDonagh and T.J. Miller ( I like him) for Libor Hajek (37th overall), Brett Howden (27th overall), 2018 1st, and a 2nd that becomes a first if they win the Cup. So they moved a high 2nd, late 1st, another late 1st, and potentially another late 1st.

 

[BigKing]

Was going to say the McDonagh trade was a big move to try and put them over the top.

This poo-pooing of TB in light of what the Kings have been the last four seasons is pretty amazing. Like, before the Kings won their titles, these guys hadn't won shit either. As a matter of fact, they had done far less than what the current TB team has done up to this point.

I'm not in love with their team or anything, but they have a really good squad. Would trade their potential v. the Kings potential over the next few seasons in a heartbeat.

 

[kingsholygrail]

The Lightning are like the Blues of old, a solid team giving way to better teams that go to the cup.

 

[Herby]

Was going to say the McDonagh trade was a big move to try and put them over the top.

This poo-pooing of TB in light of what the Kings have been the last four seasons is pretty amazing. Like, before the Kings won their titles, these guys hadn't won **** either. As a matter of fact, they had done far less than what the current TB team has done up to this point.

I'm not in love with their team or anything, but they have a really good squad. Would trade their potential v. the Kings potential over the next few seasons in a heartbeat.

Remember when the Kings were building the right way and weren't going to be a flash in the pan like Pittsburgh and Chicago (that was the thought in 2012). Remember, "I want to be a contender for a decade"

I have always said, I had no issues trading young players for impact players who are going to help you win, such as Jeff Carter, even Mike Richards, in 2011 no one could have seen what was going to happen to him, and he was signed long term. Richards and Carter were impact players under 30 who were signed long term.

The narrative being proposed now is the Kings haven't developed any good young players because they traded all the picks and got cups because of it, sorry but three of those 1st round picks went for Sekera, Lucic and Penner. Sekera and Lucic contributed nothing to the Cups, and Penner, well I don't think anyone can say he was any kind of difference between winning and losing in 2012.

The Kings aren't wafer thin in the 20-24 age group because they won Cups. That is bologna.

 

[BigKing]

I just don't totally prescribe to the "It was the bad trades that doomed the Kings" theory as I put much more of the "blame" on Richards turning into a pumpkin with DL not buying him out and then the loss of Voynov.

Voynov was a cornerstone D on a fantastic contract that was taken away out of nowhere with nothing in return. While Richards was eventually bought out, it wasn't totally without cap consequences plus it allowed Sutter to still use him during the 2015 season when he was clearly washed.

The trades hurt, although I'm not going to cry over the Penner trade as he still scored clutch goals for that 2012 team. While they definitely hurt and accelerated the drive off the cliff that began with Richards/Voynov, there is still no guarantees that they would have drafted the right players with those picks. Not knowing who would have been drafted is why I don't continue to bemoan the loss of these picks while it is a common belief on here that the Kings would definitely have Connor or Barzal right now. Maybe, but I don't know for sure. Doesn't mean the trades didn't suck, but the on-ice product suffered greatly which was very unexpected.

Going in to 2015, Kings are rolling with an under-30 defense of Doughty/Voynov/Muzzin/Martinez for the next six years at least with good cap hits to boot. A big reason why we thought we were set up long term was because the defense was in its prime. The Voynov contract was awesome. Losing him necessitates the Sekera trade and, in my belief, the Lucic deal in the sense that they thought they would get Voynov back since making that trade for Lucic while not replacing that giant hole on defense is ridiculous. Total speculation from me on that final point, but losing Voynov and having Richards implode ruined DL's plan, setting off everything that followed.

 

[BigKing]

The Lightning are like the Blues of old, a solid team giving way to better teams that go to the cup.

Sorry for the double post, but the Lightning have been to a SCF in the last four seasons so that is an insult to TB.

As it relates to my original post about being a loser until you win, Washington was shit on mercilessly but are now winners. TB is in a much better position than the Kings, even if they don't have all of the "winners" that the Kings have.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Sorry for the double post, but the Lightning have been to a SCF in the last four seasons so that is an insult to TB.

As it relates to my original post about being a loser until you win, Washington was **** on mercilessly but are now winners. TB is in a much better position than the Kings, even if they don't have all of the "winners" that the Kings have.

Sorry, they're the modern Sharks. I just think there are better teams in the east right now. Like with Washington, I will believe it when I see it.

 

[KINGS17]

Was going to say the McDonagh trade was a big move to try and put them over the top.

This poo-pooing of TB in light of what the Kings have been the last four seasons is pretty amazing. Like, before the Kings won their titles, these guys hadn't won **** either. As a matter of fact, they had done far less than what the current TB team has done up to this point.

I'm not in love with their team or anything, but they have a really good squad. Would trade their potential v. the Kings potential over the next few seasons in a heartbeat.

I am not in love with Tampa Bay either. I just think they have a superior roster, and that team is fun to watch. I would trade their roster for ours in a heartbeat.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

People forget that the Kings lost their entire second pairing between 13/14 and 14/15.

Mitchell-Voynov were a critical pairing for our team, and they both disappeared without any assets recouped.

No team in the NHL would be able to take that blow and remain competitive in the short term.

 

[BigKing]

Sorry, they're the modern Sharks. I just think there are better teams in the east right now. Like with Washington, I will believe it when I see it.

Haha. Got it. Still think they are getting slammed on here unfairly if the comparison being made is the current LA Kings.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

W

I am not in love with Tampa Bay either. I just think they have a superior roster, and that team is fun to watch. I would trade their roster for ours in a heartbeat.

Would you trade the history that led up to each team's roster as well?

 

[King'sPawn]

Was going to say the McDonagh trade was a big move to try and put them over the top.

This poo-pooing of TB in light of what the Kings have been the last four seasons is pretty amazing. Like, before the Kings won their titles, these guys hadn't won **** either. As a matter of fact, they had done far less than what the current TB team has done up to this point.

I'm not in love with their team or anything, but they have a really good squad. Would trade their potential v. the Kings potential over the next few seasons in a heartbeat.

For the record, I'm not poo poo-ing on Tampa. I'm just saying if they spent years going for it the way the Kings did, they will have similar issues. They just haven't made the volume of trades to buy key players.

They have a lot to be excited for, no doubt. I just don't think their window is as wide as some are making it out to be.

My biggest gripe with TB is frankly the deification of Yzerman when he hasn't won a cup yet as an executive.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I'm surprised potential is good enough. It used to be Cup or nothing, but I guess 1 playoff win in 4 seasons dulls some of the sharpness from opinion. At least with other teams anyway. We've come back to we'll take 10 years of contention over 1 Cup and 9 years of crap. Just goes to show that glory really is fleeting.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Was going to say the McDonagh trade was a big move to try and put them over the top.

This poo-pooing of TB in light of what the Kings have been the last four seasons is pretty amazing. Like, before the Kings won their titles, these guys hadn't won **** either. As a matter of fact, they had done far less than what the current TB team has done up to this point.

I'm not in love with their team or anything, but they have a really good squad. Would trade their potential v. the Kings potential over the next few seasons in a heartbeat.

That's not what anyone is arguing, though. I've just spent time pointing out they're basically a loaded version of the 2010 Kings--it's time to shit or get off the pot before they enter Sharks/Blues territory, and that the coming years will find them having many of the similar issues we are having, including missing youngsters due to traded first-rounders, cap concerns, and aging. The only one I'm even remotely "poo-poo"ing is the relentless lovefest with Stevie Y who I've credited with putting together a monster roster but one with latent issues that are glossed over (like the aforementioned trades and half a roster full of NTCs).

They've gone deep several times and failed. At what point does that become an issue rather than a badge of honor? Should we go ask Joe Thornton?

Yes, winning turns around a lot, like Washington's legacy.

For the record, I'm not poo poo-ing on Tampa. I'm just saying if they spent years going for it the way the Kings did, they will have similar issues. They just haven't made the volume of trades to buy key players.

They have a lot to be excited for, no doubt. I just don't think their window is as wide as some are making it out to be.

My biggest gripe with TB is frankly the deification of Yzerman when he hasn't won a cup yet as an executive.

Whoops, said it better, more concisely, than I did.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Remember when the Kings were building the right way and weren't going to be a flash in the pan like Pittsburgh and Chicago (that was the thought in 2012). Remember, "I want to be a contender for a decade"

I have always said, I had no issues trading young players for impact players who are going to help you win, such as Jeff Carter, even Mike Richards, in 2011 no one could have seen what was going to happen to him, and he was signed long term. Richards and Carter were impact players under 30 who were signed long term.

The narrative being proposed now is the Kings haven't developed any good young players because they traded all the picks and got cups because of it, sorry but three of those 1st round picks went for Sekera, Lucic and Penner. Sekera and Lucic contributed nothing to the Cups, and Penner, well I don't think anyone can say he was any kind of difference between winning and losing in 2012.

The Kings aren't wafer thin in the 20-24 age group because they won Cups. That is bologna.

Penner scored the WCF winning goal in OT. Come on. He had issues sure but he was a contributor. But how about the rest of the first rounders? The one that became Dano (Carter)? The one that became Klefbom (Penner)? You're cherry picking. Yes, one of the reasons we're wafer thin is absolutely, demonstrably because of traded high-round picks. Especially since the complaint is a lack of high-skill players most often found in the first round. We've found and developed depth players galore and are still one of the best drafting teams from that perspective.

 

[KingTrouty]

Until TB wins I am not impressed. Yzerman and co are all fluff until they win

They haven't won shit. Stacked roster and "omg amazing GM" or otherwise.

Haven't won shit.

We didn't win anything until 2012, until we did. Then again. Stevie has a long ways to go before he gets the acclaim so many pour at his feet, for me.

Unpopular opinion, whatevs.

 

[KingTrouty]

f*** Tampa. And all their fan boys, in this -- usually -- very critical sub, area being insufferable...

haven't won SHYTE

 

[Herby]

Penner scored the WCF winning goal in OT. Come on. He had issues sure but he was a contributor. But how about the rest of the first rounders? The one that became Dano (Carter)? The one that became Klefbom (Penner)? You're cherry picking. Yes, one of the reasons we're wafer thin is absolutely, demonstrably because of traded high-round picks. Especially since the complaint is a lack of high-skill players most often found in the first round. We've found and developed depth players galore and are still one of the best drafting teams from that perspective.

Penner had 47 points in 137 games as a King. He stepped his game up from garbage to serviceable in the playoffs, but he never lived up to what the Kings expected. He was a contributor in the same way that Richards was in 2014. I'm pretty sure if you asked Dean Lombardi he would tell you the same thing, he wasn't some kind of major contributor to the 2012 team, they would have won with Gagne or King in that role. But I understand the trade, Penner was a good 2nd line player in Edmonton and Anaheim and no one expected his numbers to crater like they did. And the Kings were a very young team at the time, and on the rise. In hindsight a bad trade, but nothing like the disasters that happened between June 2014 and when AEG finally pulled the plug.

On Carter, I don't know if you didn't read my post, which is funny since you quoted it, but I clearly said in the second paragraph that trading for guys in their 20's on long term contracts is fine. The Kings issues are from 2013 to 2016 the fact that of the 8 1st and 2nd round picks the Kings were allotted they ended up with one third line player (although a very good one) and whatever Cale Klague ends up as. And only one of those was the result of a trade that lead to the Kings winning a Stanley Cup. Here they are

2nd in 2013 - Traded for a rental in 2016
2nd in 2014- Traded for a rental in 2015
1st in 2015- Traded for a rental at 2015 draft
2nd in 2015- Traded for a rental in 2017
1st in 2016- Traded for a rental in 2015

All of those happened after 2014, after the Kings era of dominance was over. None of these were sacrificed to win two Stanley Cups like another poster seems to think. That is what I was pointing out and calling out as false, the notion that everything we gave away in 15,16,17 is somehow justified because we won in 12 and 14, that is what baffles me about the argument he is making, and you apparently are co-signing.

And give Blake a ton of credit, it's hard to inherit a system so devoid of talent and be able to ice a competitive team in a cap era, the system is meant to penalize teams who go years without drafting top 6 or top 4 d-man, but he has worked around it. Having 11, 8, 32 helps. But he looks like he has drafted a player in his first draft better than anyone that was drafted in the previous nine drafts and has been able to sign two college FA's who look like they both will be NHL players.

 

[Bandit]

If I knew ahead of time that all Penner would do is score that buzzer beater goal and the goal that sent us to the SCF, I’d Do that trade 100/100. IDGAF if he’s polishing rims at a car wash in Van Nuys now.

 

[BigKing]

Blake has overseen zero playoff wins. Basically the same cast of characters last season but no Sutter which was the main difference.

Blake looks pretty good from a non-NHL ice perspective but that has yet to play out. He put his balls out there with Kovy so this season will be the time to start really giving credit or criticizing.

We all want to believe he's doing great, but there are zero results so far.

 

[TruKingFan]

I guess you've never had a feeling that you didn't want to end. Yeah it proved to be folly now but you'd be lying if you didn't want that run to continue as long as it could have BACK THEN. Blake has a chance to reload and so far he's done well...much to my chagrin. But I'm rooting for him.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

On Carter, I don't know if you didn't read my post, which is funny since you quoted it, but I clearly said in the second paragraph that trading for guys in their 20's on long term contracts is fine. The Kings issues are from 2013 to 2016 the fact that of the 8 1st and 2nd round picks the Kings were allotted they ended up with one third line player (although a very good one) and whatever Cale Klague ends up as. And only one of those was the result of a trade that lead to the Kings winning a Stanley Cup. Here they are

2nd in 2013 - Traded for a rental in 2016
2nd in 2014- Traded for a rental in 2015
1st in 2015- Traded for a rental at 2015 draft
2nd in 2015- Traded for a rental in 2017
1st in 2016- Traded for a rental in 2015

All of those happened after 2014, after the Kings era of dominance was over. None of these were sacrificed to win two Stanley Cups like another poster seems to think. That is what I was pointing out and calling out as false, the notion that everything we gave away in 15,16,17 is somehow justified because we won in 12 and 14, that is what baffles me about the argument he is making, and you apparently are co-signing.

And give Blake a ton of credit, it's hard to inherit a system so devoid of talent and be able to ice a competitive team in a cap era, the system is meant to penalize teams who go years without drafting top 6 or top 4 d-man, but he has worked around it. Having 11, 8, 32 helps. But he looks like he has drafted a player in his first draft better than anyone that was drafted in the previous nine drafts and has been able to sign two college FA's who look like they both will be NHL players.

I boldfaced the part I was responding to in particular and I guess I'm trying to clarify that I can't get on board with the idea that the Kings' struggles in rebuilding the system happen solely after 2014. I agree with you that the rentals drained the system, but even though they were for players with term, even the Carter and Penner trades set back the system as well, giving up picks that are young players now (or even Richards-->younger players). Even without any weight given to the reasons why, it's pretty clear to me that one of the reasons the system is low on high-end talent is that we only had two first round picks in the competitive years and they're late ones (on the roster now--Kempe and Pearson) in addition to the series of 2nd rounders we've slung off. And, of course, no team reliably hits on high-end talent from round 3 on. From 2010 to 2017, all we have from the 1st round is Forbort, Kempe, Pearson, Vilardi. Part of the reason that Blake pick looks so good is that it's the highest pick we've had since 2009.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I still don’t buy this meme of the Kings window being “clearly over” the second the champagne dried after 2014. They would have been very competitive in 14/15 without all the off ice scandals. They were 6-2-0 before the Voynov news hit.

I don’t blame Dean for trying to go for one more run in either 14/15 or 15/16. You still have all your core locked up and under 30 years old. This “the window closed after 2014” is pure revisionist history. Agree or disagree with the individual moves at the time, but we all still believed this team was, or at least should have been, competitive through 15/16.

16/17 was the year most of us started to realize we needed a retool/rebuild.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Call me out of touch, whatever, but I feel the Kings will win another Cup. Quick, Kopitar, and Doughty is arguably the best goalie, center, defenseman combo in the league. I feel 2020-2022 will be the years they'll really go deep. Clean it up and reload last year and next year to get ready for a serious couple year run.