Around the League '16-'17 Stanley Cup Final Edition

[johnjm22]

"failed to improve the team" is absolutely ridiculous by any metric.

Yes, they were worse after the trade. We were on track to miss the playoffs.

 

[deeshamrock]

Yes, and the Flyers didn't go anywhere probably in part because of it. They eeked into the second round then got swept. I mean they had Richards still, why didn't he lead them to the cup?

The idea that the Flyers haven't won anything because they traded Richards is silly and you know it.
.

You mean in 2011, when Richards played the entire season with torn ligaments and cartilage in his left wrist, (told ESPN by March that year the pain was crippling and overtook everything he did) and got pneumonia the week the series vs Buffalo started, dropped close to 15 lbs? He never missed a shift, despite the fact he was sick. Had the hardest job in that series, shutting down the Vanek line, highest scoring line in the league that year. Richards and Versteeg (also playing hurt) held that line to 1 ES goal in 7 games. He was on the ice for 7 goals for and 0 against. Danny Briere is a great offensive playoff guy , a clutch scorer, but horrid on d, that series he was lauded for his 'timely goals' Six for and oh, the stat they don't mention 5 against.

Hockey is a tough sport, nobody forsaw the concussion in Nov 2011 (which he should have stayed out longer,) and another one in May 2013.

This far too much a black and white issue. No middle ground. For me, being a leader, getting the job done, sacrificing everything, including your body, to win, is just as important as goals.
Flyers teams have failed 5 straight years because they start off poor, first month, horrid, and that is on the so-called leaders, who have done little to nothing , I've watcher Mason and Neuvy struggle to keep them in games. THey end up 5th,6th place and trade quicksand the rest of the year to catch up.
That 3 different coaches and systems, same result. It's not always about goals and points, it's about winning.

 

[deeshamrock]

Bob McKenzieâ€ÂVerified accountï‚™ @TSNBobMcKenzie · 1h1 hour ago

I'm hearing UFA D Andrei Markov's "ask" of MTL is two years with AAV of $6M. At that price, MTL likely to let him go to market. We'll see.


I'd let him go to the market too...

@TSNBobMcKenzie

Anecdotally speaking, I don't ever recall so many "deals" being done in this so-called "talking/discussion period." There are a lot.


Come noon, twitter will be a busy place



Brian Lawtonâ€ÂVerified accountï‚™ @brianlawton9 · 2h2 hours ago


Working on 2 rumours involving @EdmontonOilers Draisaitl @Avalanche trade for Duchene & @SanJoseSharks interest in him. Lot of moving parts!

No, just no, Chiarelli would have to be nuts. I know that Draisatil's agent is (rumor) arguing that his client is not half the player of McDavid, so the offer shouldn't be either. I wonder if that is the reason that McDavid's deal won't be announce this weekend.
I'm not sure how you get around that, Draisaitl at 9M? that is 22M and brutal. But he's a total stud...curious to see how this turns out.

 

[kingsfan28]

Neither can you And winning is a lot more than points/pace in the playoffs. Simmonds has not stood out or been that difference maker, that got them the W. You take those paper props, the 'ppg's and I'll take the fact Richards has helped teams get to 5 Con Finals and 3 Cup finals.
Simmonds? Playing golf...

Lets not forget Simmonds is used in a completely different fashion in Philly than LA. Nothing at the time pointed him being that same player in LA. Philly made him who he is today.

I'll do that deal everytime that got us 2 cups.

 

[johnjm22]

You mean in 2011, when Richards played the entire season with torn ligaments and cartilage in his left wrist, (told ESPN by March that year the pain was crippling and overtook everything he did) and got pneumonia the week the series vs Buffalo started, dropped close to 15 lbs? He never missed a shift, despite the fact he was sick. Had the hardest job in that series, shutting down the Vanek line, highest scoring line in the league that year. Richards and Versteeg (also playing hurt) held that line to 1 ES goal in 7 games. He was on the ice for 7 goals for and 0 against. Danny Briere is a great offensive playoff guy , a clutch scorer, but horrid on d, that series he was lauded for his 'timely goals' Six for and oh, the stat they don't mention 5 against.

Hockey is a tough sport, nobody forsaw the concussion in Nov 2011 (which he should have stayed out longer,) and another one in May 2013.

This far too much a black and white issue. No middle ground. For me, being a leader, getting the job done, sacrificing everything, including your body, to win, is just as important as goals.
Flyers teams have failed 5 straight years because they start off poor, first month, horrid, and that is on the so-called leaders, who have done little to nothing , I've watcher Mason and Neuvy struggle to keep them in games. THey end up 5th,6th place and trade quicksand the rest of the year to catch up.
That 3 different coaches and systems, same result. It's not always about goals and points, it's about winning.

I have nothing against Richards. I like him. I like the game he played when he was a successful player. I was actually opposed to buying him out in the summer of 2014. Where I differ from most, is that I think he's way overrated. I think we overpaid for him. I also think stuff like "intangibles" and "leadership" are mostly overrated media hype.

People on this forum will praise Richards for his leadership and then make fun of the media hype Toews gets.

I think the idea that the Flyers haven't won anything because of the Richards trade is far fetched to say the least. The 09/10 Flyers team was very talented, and I don't think the Flyers have had that good of a roster since.

 

[KINGS17]

Draisaitl looks like he will be a great player in the NHL. He had a great playoff and has the all the tools necessary to be successful in that environment.

Big mistake by Edmonton if they trade him. McDavid isn't worth, what is it $13M? No player is worth such a large percentage of a team's overall cap space.

Kopitar's 2nd deal was approximately 12% of the cap, McDavid's contract would be for 17.5% of the Oiler's cap. While McDavid is the better player at this stage of their careers he isn't worth an additional 5% of the cap space.

It will be a shame for the Oilers if they end up losing Draisaitl due to McDavid's contract.

As an aside Kopitar's current deal ate up 13.7% of the Kings cap space last season, and will eat up 13.3% this season. Dean really screwed the pooch on the Kopitar deal.

 

[johnjm22]

Lets not forget Simmonds is used in a completely different fashion in Philly than LA.

Agree.

Nothing at the time pointed him being that same player in LA. Philly made him who he is today.

Disagree.

If you look deeper into the stats, Simmonds was one of the Kings best offensive players at even strength relative to his ice time. Usually coaches recognize this, and put said player in a scoring role and reward them with PP time. I think the Flyer's staff saw the offensive upside that the Kings staff didn't. It didn't take long for Simmonds to be put in scoring role in Philly.

 

[damacles1156]

Draisaitl looks like he will be a great player in the NHL. He had a great playoff and has the all the tools necessary to be successful in that environment.

Big mistake by Edmonton if they trade him. McDavid isn't worth, what is it $13M? No player is worth such a large percentage of a team's overall cap space.

Kopitar's 2nd deal was approximately 12% of the cap, McDavid's contract would be for 17.5% of the Oiler's cap. While McDavid is the better player at this stage of their careers he isn't worth an additional 5% of the cap space.

It will be a shame for the Oilers if they end up losing Draisaitl due to McDavid's contract.

As an aside Kopitar's current deal ate up 13.7% of the Kings cap space last season, and will eat up 13.3% this season. Dean really screwed the pooch on the Kopitar deal.

If Kopitar has another 50-60 point season, Boy it will be another painful year.

 

[deeshamrock]

Draisaitl looks like he will be a great player in the NHL. He had a great playoff and has the all the tools necessary to be successful in that environment.

Big mistake by Edmonton if they trade him. McDavid isn't worth, what is it $13M? No player is worth such a large percentage of a team's overall cap space.

Kopitar's 2nd deal was approximately 12% of the cap, McDavid's contract would be for 17.5% of the Oiler's cap. While McDavid is the better player at this stage of their careers he isn't worth an additional 5% of the cap space.

It will be a shame for the Oilers if they end up losing Draisaitl due to McDavid's contract.

As an aside Kopitar's current deal ate up 13.7% of the Kings cap space last season, and will eat up 13.3% this season. Dean really screwed the pooch on the Kopitar deal.

I think they know that, but it might be a matter of how to fit the money in, esp if the offer sheet rumor is true. I heard that earlier today and this (which is the answer a GM should give, still...)


Darren Dregerâ€ÂVerified accountï‚™ @DarrenDreger · 44m44 minutes ago


Chiarelli on offfer sheet: "we have tons of cap space and will match any offer sheet. I have said that before."


I'm sure they would, like Nashville had to when the Flyers did that to WEber. But that price, that could cripple them if it's high enough.

 

[damacles1156]

You keep McDavid+Draisaitl what ever the cost. You put 900k scrubs around them if you have too. Both players are also (Centers)

Both are prime production age forwards that would be selling all their Prime years.

Neither are even remotely close to production drop off.

 

[johnjm22]

Draisaitl looks like he will be a great player in the NHL. He had a great playoff and has the all the tools necessary to be successful in that environment.

Big mistake by Edmonton if they trade him. McDavid isn't worth, what is it $13M? No player is worth such a large percentage of a team's overall cap space.

Kopitar's 2nd deal was approximately 12% of the cap, McDavid's contract would be for 17.5% of the Oiler's cap. While McDavid is the better player at this stage of their careers he isn't worth an additional 5% of the cap space.

It will be a shame for the Oilers if they end up losing Draisaitl due to McDavid's contract.

As an aside Kopitar's current deal ate up 13.7% of the Kings cap space last season, and will eat up 13.3% this season. Dean really screwed the pooch on the Kopitar deal.

But this is part of what the cap is designed to do. It forces talent to be spread around the NHL.

If McDavid isn't worth the 13M in your opinion, are you saying you would trade him? Or force him into a hold out? Paying him 13M sucks, but the other options aren't exactly appealing either.

 

[damacles1156]

McDavid is worth 13 million a year, he will output his prime production the entire length of his Eight year deal.

Guys like Kopitar/Brown are not worth their current deals.

 

[deeshamrock]

If Kopitar has another 50-60 point season, Boy it will be another painful year.

No necessarily, and entering his 30's, his years going forward won't be as productive, that's just gravity. And 60 -65 pts is about where he will be, don't forget he said post season, that he doesn't intend to change his style (offense) and being a good 2 way player is what he prefers. And the competition he has to go against, to shut down, is getting more skilled, more teams presenting a challenge. That 25 second shift, wont' be easy.

But if the Kings around him, TT, TP , JC and ? support him better, that will benefit him in that they get more goals and perhaps the W's. It doesn't mean if he doesn't hit 75 pts, the season fails.

That contract, will never equal in most fans minds what it should. And I don't like him having the C, it doesn't suit him . I think he struggled with it. Every player isn't always cut out for that, esp when the team's losing and you need to be 'that guy' . Being the best player doesn't always equate to being the best leader. For my money, Doughty is the heart and soul of this team, it's pulse. His passion drives them, you can see that effect. But Kopi was Sutter's boy and Sutter wanted him to have it and he does.

I think Kopitar will have a good year, new coach, new system, fresh air in the locker room.

 

[kingsfan28]

Agree.

Disagree.

If you look deeper into the stats, Simmonds was one of the Kings best offensive players at even strength relative to his ice time. Usually coaches recognize this, and put said player in a scoring role and reward them with PP time. I think the Flyer's staff saw the offensive upside that the Kings staff didn't. It didn't take long for Simmonds to be put in scoring role in Philly.

I didn't mean he couldn't do it, just that he was never given the chance to do it. Did he ever crack the top 6 in LA under Murray, I don't really remember.

 

[johnjm22]

As fans we tend to look at cap numbers, but McDavid and his camp are looking at real money figures. They're seeing guys like Kopitar and Toews are getting paid 13M/14M in real money.

McDavid thinks he should get paid similarly (and he's right). The new contract rules make it so deals can't circumvent the cap, thus you end up with a contract with a cap hit around 13M.

 

[damacles1156]

McDavid/Doughty/Crosby guys that should be paid the highest in the league if you ask me.

Pitt got really lucky with Crosby's deal.

 

[TruKingFan]

But this is part of what the cap is designed to do. It forces talent to be spread around the NHL.

If McDavid isn't worth the 13M in your opinion, are you saying you would trade him? Or force him into a hold out? Paying him 13M sucks, but the other options aren't exactly appealing either.

This idea that a team will have to shell $$ out for their star player is something Kings17 will never understand. Wouldn't it be nice if each team had a McDavid? Then we can see who can build a better team under the a system i.e., draft well, trade sensibly, etc.

 

[kingsfan28]

Two Stan Lee Cups.

Damn Straight...Excelsior!

 

[Herby]

Why is it so hard for fans on messageboards to just agree that both teams benefitted from a trade, it's like both sides get so dug in on their teams side that they lose all objectivity.

The Kings got a much needed piece to their 2012 cup run, a player that made a number of key plays in 2012 that Jarret Stoll or Brayden Schenn wouldn't have been able to make. Stoll has stone hands and Schenn never could have shouldered the responsibility Richards had defensively in 2012.

The Flyers got rid of what was going to turn into the NHL's worst contract and added a wonderful future star in Simmonds and now some new assets for Schenn. Philly was not winning the cup in the years 11/12 or 12/13 when MR was still an effective player. And by the end all the rumors and bad press about off the ice stuff were correct.

You guys take some odd positions like the Kings would have won in 2012 without Richards and the Kings wouldn't have won in 2014 without him.

This trade seems to always be brought up from the grave, usually when Johnny mentions Simmonds in anyway. If you are going to evaluate it you have to look at the reality that it was two different players. Richards in 2012 was probably about at the same level Carter is now, an excellent 2nd line center, Richards in 2014 was probably about the same level as Andreoff is now, a below average 4th line center.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Why is it so hard for fans on messageboards to just agree that both teams benefitted from a trade, it's like both sides get so dug in on their teams side that they lose all objectivity.

The Kings got a much needed piece to their 2012 cup run, a player that made a number of key plays in 2012 that Jarret Stoll or Brayden Schenn wouldn't have been able to make. Stoll has stone hands and Schenn never could have shouldered the responsibility Richards had defensively in 2012.

The Flyers got rid of what was going to turn into the NHL's worst contract and added a wonderful future star in Simmonds and now some new assets for Schenn. Philly was not winning the cup in the years 11/12 or 12/13 when MR was still an effective player. And by the end all the rumors and bad press about off the ice stuff were correct.

You guys take some odd positions like the Kings would have won in 2012 without Richards and the Kings wouldn't have won in 2014 without him.

This trade seems to always be brought up from the grave, usually when Johnny mentions Simmonds in anyway. If you are going to evaluate it you have to look at the reality that it was two different players. Richards in 2012 was probably about at the same level Carter is now, an excellent 2nd line center, Richards in 2014 was probably about the same level as Andreoff is now, a below average 4th line center.

Andreoff could never put up the playoff campaign Richards did in 2014 as a fourth line center. Otherwise, agreed.

 

[Reclamation Project]

It'll be brought up again when the Flyers trade whoever they drafted in the first round in 2025 for a third round pick that eventually amounts to a solid fourth line two-way center that ends up playing 1000 NHL games and gets a shiny silver stick from Bettman.

I watch Brayden Schenn play and the guy has gravel for brains. Not a very sharp player.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

It's almost like Edmonton shouldn't have signed Lucic to that contract, who could possibly see that coming....

 

[KINGS17]

But this is part of what the cap is designed to do. It forces talent to be spread around the NHL.

If McDavid isn't worth the 13M in your opinion, are you saying you would trade him? Or force him into a hold out? Paying him 13M sucks, but the other options aren't exactly appealing either.

No, I wouldn't trade McDavid, but paying him such a large percentage of the overall cap is going make it difficult for the Oilers to take the remaining steps necessary to win a cup.

I don't see the salary cap rising dramatically over the next 4 - 5 years.

Honestly, I would take damacles approach. I would pay Draisaitl and McDavid and see what happens.

 

[KINGS17]

This idea that a team will have to shell $$ out for their star player is something Kings17 will never understand. Wouldn't it be nice if each team had a McDavid? Then we can see who can build a better team under the a system i.e., draft well, trade sensibly, etc.

Not true at all. I simply think it will be difficult for any team to win it all while paying two players almost 33% of the cap.

What I don't understand is paying an almost 30-something a cap hit of $10M for 8 years. I thought it might take 3 or 4 years before it was a bad contract. Turns out I was wrong and it happened much sooner.

Contracts like those signed by Kopitar and Toews are the reason why there will be another lockout. The owners aren't going to pay the amount of money they are paying Kopitar and Toews, and then have them not perform. It's not good for business.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Have a meeting of the minds among management, McDavid's group, and Draisaitl's group. Tell them you're trying to build a dynasty and want to dominate the league, but it's important to have both of them take a haircut. They're both gonna get paid, but can have both money and rings. McDavid will gets endorsements for life, he could give a little up. Have them both buy in, it's a very unique negotiating scenario. Knock both deals out at once.