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Around the League '16-'17 351 Poster Games Lost to Injury Edition

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Herby said:
I don't believe the Kings have the talent.

In 2012 and 2014 we had 1st line wingers in Carter, Gaborik, Williams and Brown (atleast 2012 he was).

We do not have a 1st line winger on our roster, and we have a bottom six that continues to be an offensive blackhole. This team does not have elite offensive talent, and thank the GM for that.
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I figured Toffoli would fill that void after last season but that hasn't panned out yet.

Kings are going to have to move a defenseman for a forward this offseason or we will be in this same situation next year.
 
Herby said:
I don't believe the Kings have the talent.

In 2012 and 2014 we had 1st line wingers in Carter, Gaborik, Williams and Brown (atleast 2012 he was).

We do not have a 1st line winger on our roster, and we have a bottom six that continues to be an offensive blackhole. This team does not have elite offensive talent, and thank the GM for that.
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Yeah, I agree. Pearson is a hard working player with the ability to bury the puck, but his best fit is on the 2nd line. Same with Toffoli. Neither of these two are likely to be consistent 25-goal forwards for the next 5 or 6 years.

Dean has a lot of holes to fill up front and not much ammunition in the way of cap space or assets he can trade to get what is needed for this group to be a contender next season, or likely for several seasons.

Fans expecting the forwards in Ontario to come in and be offensive dynamos are going to be disappointed. Kempe's speed and quickness have been a breath of fresh air, but I don't see him as a top line center, which seems to be his best position.
 
If Toffoli and Pearson aren't first line wingers, who around the league qualifies?

This is starting to sound like the complaints about the bottom six. When you actually look up what 'first line production' entails, similar to 3rd and 4th line production, our guys stack up just fine in most cases.
 
I guess technically we're rooting for STL since Calgary is in our division



We also want an SJ regulation win but of course they're dumpster firing at the worst time
 
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Herby said:
I think it's ridiculous that you can slash a stick as hard as you want and it's only a penalty if the stick breaks, seems just insanely stupid to me and if you miss the stick we have situations like this.

I don't care if you're Sidney Crosby or Kyle Clifford, if you do that kind of damage to someone you should be sitting for a significant amount of time.
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It's funny, someone on one of the nhl shows brought that same point up and was laughed at. Then they went and showed 7 Sens players doing the exact same thing Crosby did, sans injury.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
If Toffoli and Pearson aren't first line wingers, who around the league qualifies?

This is starting to sound like the complaints about the bottom six. When you actually look up what 'first line production' entails, similar to 3rd and 4th line production, our guys stack up just fine in most cases.
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Each have now had one good season.

Toffoli is 25 years old. Pearson is will be 25 years old this summer. Top line wingers have typically had a couple of good seasons by the time they reach this age.

They are solid top sixers.

It's not a complaint. You just have a habit of placing a higher value on our guys based on one good year than I do. Is Toffoli stacking up just fine this season?

And to answer your question, guys like Gaudreau qualify. Some teams don't have any top line wingers, that's why they aren't contenders. When the Kings had Williams, Carter, Brown (playing the best hockey of his life), they had top line wingers.
 
KINGS17 said:
Each have now had one good season.

Toffoli is 25 years old. Pearson is will be 25 years old this summer. Top line wingers have typically had a couple of good seasons by the time they reach this age.

They are solid top sixers.

It's not a complaint. You just have a habit of placing a higher value on our guys based on one good year than I do. Is Toffoli stacking up just fine this season?
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Just curious. What's a top line winger look like versus 2nd line winger?

Edit: and surprisingly, yes he is, and yes both have had a couple of good seasons by this age.

It's not about me being biased which is your clear suggestion, it's about looking at their precedents and comparables around the league, while also factoring in the context. Sounds more like you have an issue with their age-of-break-in which is frankly absurd, like they're not first liners because they didn't break a literal Stanley Cup winning roster earlier.
 
Welp, Calgary's voodoo is back. Tie the game on a puck off Bouwmeester's skate, and Monahan gets a favorable bounce in OT.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
Just curious. What's a top line winger look like versus 2nd line winger?

Edit: and surprisingly, yes he is, and yes both have had a couple of good seasons by this age.
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I'd say 50-60+ points is about the threshold for a top line winger, whereas 40+ points is around what you'd expect from a second line winger.

Looking at the top scoring wings in the top 50 list, they're all above 50 points. Then when you go down to the next group between 51-100 and beyond they're below that threshold.

The Kings only have one forward producing like a top line player, and a few others performing like 2nd liners at best. The rest have been average to below average.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
I'd say 50-60+ points is about the threshold for a top line winger, whereas 40+ points is around what you'd expect from a second line winger.

Looking at the top scoring wings in the top 50 list, they're all above 50 points. Then when you go down to the next group between 51-100 and beyond they're below that threshold.

The Kings only have one forward producing like a top line player, and a few others performing like 2nd liners at best. The rest have been average to below average.
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Even just this season, the break point for top-30 LW is 43 points. The breakpoint for top-30 RW is 39 points. Are we going to pretend Pearson and Toffoli in particular can't produce like that?

It might be splitting hairs but it's yet another non-fact-based complaint about DL's drafting and the ability on this roster that also doesn't factor in the Kings' being a low-scoring team in general as well as vastly underperforming this year.

And to go back to K17's edit about Brown and Williams as top liners, funny, because Toffoli had almost exactly the same production as those guys, and Pearson's 5v5 production surpasses it. I'm thinking the line 'legit top line winger' is being confused as having to be a Gaudreau type when really the average top line winger is around 45-50 points. Maybe Pearson and Toffoli aren't TOP END 1st line wingers, but that's hardly as necessary as top end centers, d-men, goalies.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
Just curious. What's a top line winger look like versus 2nd line winger?

Edit: and surprisingly, yes he is, and yes both have had a couple of good seasons by this age.

It's not about me being biased which is your clear suggestion, it's about looking at their precedents and comparables around the league, while also factoring in the context. Sounds more like you have an issue with their age-of-break-in which is frankly absurd, like they're not first liners because they didn't break a literal Stanley Cup winning roster earlier.
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A top line winger is a player who buries his chances when he gets them. Pearson and Toffoli don't always do that.

I don't have any issues with the age at which Toffoli and Pearson broke in with the team. Players with the kind of talent to be called 1st line wingers typically are more accomplished by the age of 25.

By the way, Justin Williams age 24: 76 points, age 25: 67 points. That's a top line winger.

Let's take a look at an "average" first line winger in the often maligned Dustin Brown. By the age of 25 Brown had seasons of 60, 53, and 56 points. He followed those up with two more full seasons of good production with 57 and 54 points. Then in the lockout season Brown had 18 goals in 46 games. Over that 6 year span Brown was a solid first line winger.

Do you think Toffoli and Pearson will be as accomplished as Dustin Brown when they reach 28-29 years of age? I hope they will be, but I am expecting solid contributions more along the lines of what I expect for a player spending most of his time on the 2nd line.
 
I do believe a lot of players on this team would be a lot more productive playing in a different system. Toffoli and Pearson would be deadlier on a Chicago or Pittsburgh or San Jose because they have creative players who know how to distribute the puck.

The Kings prefer to get their shots from a distance and stick to the perimeter walls. Look at how much the PP circulates around Kopitar and the two point men, and how useless the other winger tends to be with the man advantage.

Also not saying Toffoli and Pearson aren't top six forwards, but I wouldn't consider them to be top line wingers yet. That's reserved for the likes of Kane, Panarin, Tarasenko, Kessel, etc.
 
KINGS17 said:
A top line winger is a player who buries his chances when he gets them. Pearson and Toffoli don't always do that.

I don't have any issues with the age at which Toffoli and Pearson broke in with the team. Players with the kind of talent to be called 1st line wingers typically are more accomplished by the age of 25.

Let's take a look at an "average" first line winger in the often maligned Dustin Brown. By the age of 25 Brown had seasons of 60, 53, and 56 points. He followed those up with two more full seasons of good production with 57 and 54 points. Then in the lockout season Brown had 18 goals in 46 games. Over that 6 year span Brown was a solid first line winger.

Do you think Toffoli and Pearson will be as accomplished as Dustin Brown when they reach 28-29 years of age? I hope they will be, but I am expecting solid contributions more along the lines of what I expect for a player spending most of his time on the 2nd line.
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Okay, but you're also looking at a guy who broke into the league on a ****** team thus got in earlier and was arguably only not ruined because he was forced to play in the AHL for a year due to the lockout.

Toffoli and Pearson didn't jump right into the NHL because the Kings were a ****ing powerhouse and didn't have the spots.

Do you really not see the problem with going "well, Brown did more between 18-25"?

And hey, Brown has had a fantastic career. I'd be thrilled if Pearson and Toffoli continued to do what they've done so they can be in the same breath. Brown was also a flat out top RW because of his hitting. Remember it was only him, Ovechkin, and like 1-2 seasons of Ladd to be guys who could score 50+ points and lead the league in hits (200+ hits I think was the stat). If they produce slightly less than Brown there's no shame in that and it doesn't make them not top line guys.

Again maybe it's splitting hairs but I don't see the point in cheapening these guys. They're legit talents and the whole team is underperforming. Is there any doubt that a healthy Toffoli is a regular 30-goal scorer on, say, Chicago? SJ, with Thornton?
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
I do believe a lot of players on this team would be a lot more productive playing in a different system. Toffoli and Pearson would be deadlier on a Chicago or Pittsburgh or San Jose because they have creative players who know how to distribute the puck.

The Kings prefer to get their shots from a distance and stick to the perimeter walls. Look at how much the PP circulates around Kopitar and the two point men, and how useless the other winger tends to be with the man advantage.

Also not saying Toffoli and Pearson aren't top six forwards, but I wouldn't consider them to be top line wingers yet. That's reserved for the likes of Kane, Panarin, Tarasenko, Kessel, etc.
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If that's the case, than only like 15 teams have top line wingers.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
Okay, but you're also looking at a guy who broke into the league on a ****** team thus got in earlier and was arguably only not ruined because he was forced to play in the AHL for a year due to the lockout.

Toffoli and Pearson didn't jump right into the NHL because the Kings were a ****ing powerhouse and didn't have the spots.

Do you really not see the problem with going "well, Brown did more between 18-25"?

And hey, Brown has had a fantastic career. I'd be thrilled if Pearson and Toffoli continued to do what they've done so they can be in the same breath. Brown was also a flat out top RW because of his hitting. Remember it was only him, Ovechkin, and like 1-2 seasons of Ladd to be guys who could score 50+ points and lead the league in hits (200+ hits I think was the stat). If they produce slightly less than Brown there's no shame in that and it doesn't make them not top line guys.

Again maybe it's splitting hairs but I don't see the point in cheapening these guys. They're legit talents and the whole team is underperforming. Is there any doubt that a healthy Toffoli is a regular 30-goal scorer on, say, Chicago? SJ, with Thornton?
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How is it cheapening Toffoli and Pearson to say they are solid top sixers? They just aren't in Brown's class, and Brown is an "average" top line winger.
 
KINGS17 said:
How is it cheapening Toffoli and Pearson to say they are solid top sixers? They just aren't in Brown's class, and Brown is an "average" top line winger.
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The difference between an average top line winger and a random solid top sixer isn't two measly points.

Brown's best season was 60 points on a higher-scoring Kings team.

Toffoli just had 58.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
Even just this season, the break point for top-30 LW is 43 points. The breakpoint for top-30 RW is 39 points. Are we going to pretend Pearson and Toffoli in particular can't produce like that?
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This is the same type of stuff that was posted in 2014 about Richards.

"He is 44th in center scoring, that makes him an average 2nd line center!!"

When in reality he wasn't an NHL player.

I like Pearson and Toffoli, but when I say first line winger I mean someone who can either be the main cog on a line or someone who can elevate their center. I just don't think either one is there yet. They are 2nd line complimentary players on a contending team.
 
Herby said:
This is the same type of stuff that was posted in 2014 about Richards.

"He is 44th in center scoring, that makes him an average 2nd line center!!"

When in reality he wasn't an NHL player.

I like Pearson and Toffoli, but when I say first line winger I mean someone who can either be the main cog on a line or someone who can elevate their center. I just don't think either one is there yet. They are 2nd line complimentary players on a contending team.
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And that's fine, but like I said above, that narrows the 'top line winger' list to about 10-15. That's like when people talk about 'true number one defenseman' and the list doesn't really go beyond 15. That's ok. That's a different philosophy. But if we're talking about averages, they fit right in, and that's just statistical fact.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
The difference between an average top line winger and a random solid top sixer isn't two measly points.

Brown's best season was 60 points on a higher-scoring Kings team.

Toffoli just had 58.
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...and Toffoli has done it ONCE. By the age of 25 Brown had done it twice and didn't stop doing it for another four years.

Brown was consistently producing 50-point seasons during that span of six years, and led the NHL in hitting. That's a top line winger.
 
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