Armchair GMs: What moves would you make to maximize the roster?

[The Zermanator]

Seems it is your head in the sand...

The past 5 years:

Ryan Suter

Jay Bouwmeester

Alex Edler

Tyler Myers and etc...

Ken Holland did score the dman DRWs fans wanted in Mike Green for free no less.

Ken Holland did score one of the most coveted young dman back in 2012 danny dekeyser for free no less

The only thing Ken Holland is guilty of is not overpaying and selling the future. If you had your way, Dylan Larkin would be playing for Buffalo Sabres right now. Yeah that seems like a brilliant game plan

You can go back to burying your head in the sand after believing/echoing what everyone on a message board tells you instead of following the facts and being free minded with a actual free minded opinion on facts, not what you're being spoon fed into believing.

Sure, go on thinking you're the only one capable of forming a valid opinion. Great 3rd grade argument there...

Going beyond the petty personal attacks, and addressing the substance.

Suter, swing and a miss.

Bouwmeester, swing and a miss.

Edler, swing and a miss.

Myers, swing and a miss. And fyi, it was Buffalo that sent the 1st rd pick in that trade. Didn't cost Winnipeg one... Only costs Larkin if you assume that Holland can't propose a trade that doesn't include a 1st rounder.

Are you seriously using that track record to defend Holland.

So sorry, would this be a better description?

EDIT: And DeKeyser fell in Holland's lap. Nothing any GM couldn't/wouldn't have done.

And Green was a good signing. But one success in a sea of failures does not a good job make. And it doesn't address our greatest position of need either.

Then on top of everything, there's the poor roster management leading to players who have reached their mediocre peaks (like Smith and Kindl) blocking prospects who still have potential to be better than either (and may already be).

 

[Dotter]

Nicklas Lidstrom ain't walking through those doors.

Show me a team in the NHL that does have a Nicklas Lidstrom.

As soon as Bowman left the franchise, you've seen the sorry results of this team.

Yeah because Scotty Bowman led the team to the 2008 and 2009 SCFs. I remember an interview of him sitting in his leather lazy boy with his feet up and a bucket of popcorn next to him watching the Wings game on his 60" high def TV talking about the DRWs confidence is low. He must of had Babcock on speed dial to call him on the bench to set up a game plans to win the cup that year!

 

[Dotter]

Sure, go on thinking you're the only one capable of forming a valid opinion. Great 3rd grade argument there...

Going beyond the petty personal attacks, and addressing the substance.

Suter, swing and a miss.

Bouwmeester, swing and a miss.

Edler, swing and a miss.

Myers, swing and a miss. And fyi, it was Buffalo that sent the 1st rd pick in that trade. Didn't cost Winnipeg one... Only costs Larkin if you assume that Holland can't propose a trade that doesn't include a 1st rounder.

Are you seriously using that track record to defend Holland.

So sorry, would this be a better description?

EDIT: And DeKeyser fell in Holland's lap. Nothing any GM couldn't/wouldn't have done.

And Green was a good signing. But one success in a sea of failures does not a good job make.

Wow, if Ken Holland pulled off what you seem to be willing to do...


Suter would be here at 10m cap hit per year which would have been almost 25% of the entire cap at teh time. Brilliant!

Nyquist and Tatar and Sheahan and Pulk would all be playing somewhere else (and Wings would have no forward depth)

Larkin and Mrazek would be tearing it up with other teams

Ken Holland would be in cap hell with no scoring forward or depth.

Great strategy. Tell us more on how you would build the team in your fantasy world!

EDIT: I love the player X fell in Holland's lap argument. It hasn't ever been used before, like at all!

 

[ScottyBowman]

Show me a team in the NHL that does have a Nicklas Lidstrom.



Yeah because Scotty Bowman led the team to the 2008 and 2009 SCFs. I remember an interview of him sitting in his leather lazy boy with his feet up and a bucket of popcorn next to him watching the Wings game on his 60" high def TV talking about the DRWs confidence is low. He must of had Babcock on speed dial to call him on the bench to set up a game plans to win the cup that year!

He worked in the front office and helped retool the team. Ever sit down and think how many poor choices we have made personnel wise since he left. I have a feeling you haven't. Also, Babcock talked to Bowman regularly when was with the Red Wings so yes I do think Scotty helped out for the game plans. I have a feeling that no matter what I type or say, you got your mind set that Holland is a superhero.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

He worked in the front office and helped retool the team. Ever sit down and think how many poor choices we have made personnel wise since he left. I have a feeling you haven't. Also, Babcock talked to Bowman regularly when was with the Red Wings so yes I do think Scotty helped out for the game plans. I have a feeling that no matter what I type or say, you got your mind set that Holland is a superhero.

I'm very critical of Ken Holland, outspoken critic, but you are overselling Bowman's contributions to the team post 2002.

 

[Dotter]

He worked in the front office and helped retool the team. Ever sit down and think how many poor choices we have made personnel wise since he left. I have a feeling you haven't. Also, Babcock talked to Bowman regularly when was with the Red Wings so yes I do think Scotty helped out for the game plans. I have a feeling that no matter what I type or say, you got your mind set that Holland is a superhero.

So he sprinkled his magic fairy dust on the team and they won the cup? Why didn't you just say so???

 

[Ace]

Myers, swing and a miss. And fyi, it was Buffalo that sent the 1st rd pick in that trade. Didn't cost Winnipeg one... Only costs Larkin if you assume that Holland can't propose a trade that doesn't include a 1st rounder.

Kind of an impossible trade to recreate though. Buffal wasn't dumping Myers for just parts...they got back a pretty decent replacement in Bogosian and were targeting Kane. They were the team looking to package parts with Myers, and expiring UFA, a couple prospects and a 1 going out. The weren't looking to take on more parts. And again...they filled Myers spot in that trade.

What would a comparable thing from Detroit be if you can't put in the things they wanted?

 

[Dotter]

I'm very critical of Ken Holland, outspoken critic, but you are overselling Bowman's contributions to the team post 2002.

Being critical within reason is healthy, I believe. But keep it realistic. Look at what his peers around the NHL are doing with more/better picks/assets, and you'll come to see Ken Holland is doing a great job under the circumstances.

If the argument is he isn't building a team that tanks for top picks, then yeah, he might be guilty of that. He's building playoff teams with a chance of going deep. The talent is there, but the luck has not been on our side.

I'm just trying to understand what people want Ken Holland to do... tank for picks or build a playoff team that if gets a little luck, can beat CHI or TAMPA in their game 7s. And if Wings beat CHI or TAMPA, then the possibilities are endless.

In context, the Wings lucked out when Dekeyser got injured for the series, Filppula missed most of game #7 or when Kronwall got suspended in a controversial hit. It's not like they were blowout games. Those games could have gone either way.

Wings had no luck and were not the 1997/98/02 elite team they once were. The reality is without tanking and getting top picks to rebuild, it's going to be hard to draft elite players on ELC to help you win the cup.

That might be Ken Holland's mistake; not tanking. But Larkin and Mrazek might be the secret weapon.

 

[Dotter]

Kind of an impossible trade to recreate though. Buffal wasn't dumping Myers for just parts...they got back a pretty decent replacement in Bogosian and were targeting Kane. They were the team looking to package parts with Myers, and expiring UFA, a couple prospects and a 1 going out. The weren't looking to take on more parts. And again...they filled Myers spot in that trade.

What would a comparable thing from Detroit be if you can't put in the things they wanted?

Thanks for taking the time out of your day to try and explain that to him. I was flabbergasted when he suggested Wings didn't need to trade their 1st because apparently he thought Quincy and Abdelkader was our Bogo and Kane to package up. Which I thought was mind-boggling. I just gave up!

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Ken Holland's first rebuild on the fly required an elite franchise defenseman to happen.

How exactly does this rebuild on the fly work if he can't rebuild the defense?

If it's through the draft, he needs to significantly improve at drafting defenseman like three years ago.

It sure as hell isnt going to happen via FA and it's definitely not going to happen with a trade.

So we are looking at 4-5 more years of dreadful defense before Kenny works his magic?

If you think the situation from Bowman to Babcock to Babcock to Blashill are remotely similar, you are going to be shocked at how wrong you end up being.

Post Bowman (coaching) rebuild had an elite Lidstrom and two very young centers with elite potential ready to take the mantle from Yzerman.

Post Babcock has an aging Kronwall who isn't playing at an elite level, a declining Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk, who struggles to stay healthy. Meanwhile there aren't any players around who are ready to take over for any of the current core. Larkin is your best bet, but if he does prove to be an elite two way center, we are probably several years from seeing that happen.

 

[Dotter]

Ken Holland's first rebuild on the fly required an elite franchise defenseman to happen.

How exactly does this rebuild on the fly work if he can't rebuild the defense?

If it's through the draft, he needs to significantly improve at drafting defenseman like three years ago.

It sure as hell isnt going to happen via FA and it's definitely not going to happen with a trade.

So we are looking at 4-5 more years of dreadful defense before Kenny works his magic?

If you think the situation from Bowman to Babcock to Babcock to Blashill are remotely similar, you are going to be shocked at how wrong you end up being.

Post Bowman (coaching) rebuild had an elite Lidstrom and two very young centers with elite potential ready to take the mantle from Yzerman.

Post Babcock has an aging Kronwall who isn't playing at an elite level, a declining Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk, who struggles to stay healthy. Meanwhile there aren't any players around who are ready to take over for any of the current core. Larkin is your best bet, but if he does prove to be an elite two way center, we are probably several years from seeing that happen.

So after reading through all your ********, you are condemning Ken Holland to the stake because he hasn't bothered to draft the next Nik Lidstrom in the making?

Okay

 

[WingedWheel1987]

So after reading through all your ********, you are condemning Ken Holland to the stake because he hasn't bothered to draft the next Nik Lidstrom in the making?

Okay :rollseyes:

Yup you got me. That's exactly what I said.

I'm condemning Ken Holland for expecting players to fall into his lap and when that doesn't happen, he shrugs his shoulders and says the word parity 75 times.

 

[Dotter]

Yup you got me. That's exactly what I said.

I'm condemning Ken Holland for expecting players to fall into his lap and when that doesn't happen, he shrugs his shoulders and says the word parity 75 times.

Yeah no doubt, why doesn't he just simply walk out to the golden defenseman orchard where they grow on trees and pick a few up. I mean it can't be that hard.

btw, I wonder if you'd still consider Bouwmeester the elite dman had Holland gave up Tatar, Nyquist and Sheahan (and I think Mrazek too was part of the deal at the time) up for him, and Wings won no cup with him, if you'd think he was still elite in your mind.

For fun, you should go back and look at the cup winners since 2010 and see where those top forwards and dman were drafted (or traded for) to maybe help you get a grasp at how unrealistic it is for Ken Holland to acquire one, compared how you seem to think they grow on trees.

 

[The Zermanator]

Wow, if Ken Holland pulled off what you seem to be willing to do...


Suter would be here at 10m cap hit per year which would have been almost 25% of the entire cap at teh time. Brilliant!

Nyquist and Tatar and Sheahan and Pulk would all be playing somewhere else (and Wings would have no forward depth)

Larkin and Mrazek would be tearing it up with other teams

Ken Holland would be in cap hell with no scoring forward or depth.

Great strategy. Tell us more on how you would build the team in your fantasy world!

EDIT: I love the player X fell in Holland's lap argument. It hasn't ever been used before, like at all!

Yes! Because I totally would have done ALL of those moves, right? Instead of seeing them as individual wasted opportunities!

And this team would just be soooo much worse with Suter, right? And his cap hit is 7.5M, so where do you get 10? And I'm the one in fantasy land. How about 8.5, just to overpay? Never mind, we're better off spending that extra money on Smith, Kindl, Quincey, and Ericsson.

Are you capable of understanding that if someone (say, me) says 'trade so and so for this player', or 'trade so and so for this other player' they don't necessarily mean do both? Maybe one or the other? Should be easy enough to understand. Case in point, I'd like Nyquist/Svech/2nd for Shattenkirk or Tatar/Quincey/Marchenko/2nd for Byfuglien. It's laughable that you would think that means I want to trade Nyquist/Tatar/Svech/Quincey/Marchenko and 2 2nds to bring in Byfuglien and Shattenkirk. You're trying to frame other people's arguments just to make it easier for yourself.

I've always maintained that Larkin and Mrazek are untouchable, so you're just making things up. Are you that uncertain of your own position that you have to fabricate things and accuse people of having no original opinion?

And for your convenience, here are two threads about DeKeyser. One before he was signed and the other just after. Kindly notice that to many, his signing was a foregone conclusion. And none were surprised when he did sign with Detroit. I'm not the one living on Fantasy Island, mate. How's Tattoo doing, by the way?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1381807&highlight=dekeyser

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1389137&highlight=dekeyser

Yeah no doubt, why doesn't he just simply walk out to the golden defenseman orchard where they grow on trees and pick a few up. I mean it can't be that hard.

btw, I wonder if you'd still consider Bouwmeester the elite dman had Holland gave up Tatar, Nyquist and Sheahan (and I think Mrazek too was part of the deal at the time) up for him, and Wings won no cup with him, if you'd think he was still elite in your mind.

For fun, you should go back and look at the cup winners since 2010 and see where those top forwards and dman were drafted (or traded for) to maybe help you get a grasp at how unrealistic it is for Ken Holland to acquire one, compared how you seem to think they grow on trees.

And if you actually believe this, I don't know why I'm even bothering...

EDIT: And Duncan Keith? Round 2, 54th overall. Weber, Subban, etc...

 

[Dotter]

And if you actually believe this, I don't know why I'm even bothering...

McKenzie "I've heard that the Flames could have had Nyquist and Tatar for Bouwmeester or another player but chose not to"

https://twitter.com/Hope_Smoke/status/456178678875975682

I couldn't remember all the details, but if I remember correctly the rumor at the time was thrown around with Nyquist and Tatar was Sheahan. For some reason I think I remember Mrazek's name in the mix as they were thin on goalie prospects at teh time.

But yeah, I will look at the facts that were reported by reputable sources with inside information at the time.

Thanks tho

EDIT:

Looks like I am mixing some of that up with the Edler proposal, too. Who had Sheahan mentioned along w/one of Tatar and Nyquist or both - http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comment...e-red-wings-offer-tatar-and-nyquist-for-iginl

Nobody really knows what was offered and asked for behind closed doors, but we do know Ken Holland would have to severely overpay to get a top 4 guy. Had the trade gone through, I would be first to call for his firing. Good thing it never happened!

EDIT #2

EDIT: And Duncan Keith? Round 2, 54th overall. Weber, Subban, etc...

Keith, Toews, Kane. Nice trio. Wings never tanked for 1st overalls before. Are you suggesting they should? You want Ken Holland demoted to head scout from GM because he didn't have the foresight to draft Keith? Lol??!?

Shouldn't he just fire scouts and find better ones for missing on Keith??????

Weber. Did he win a cup? No? Didn't think so. Good player, but he doesn't guarantee a cup win. Therefore, he's not Ken Holland's savior. amirite?

Subban. Nice player with a bit of attitude problems. Not really a DRWs type guy. But MTL did miss the playoffs with him leading the charge a few years ago. Bet you forgot about that. They got a top 3 pick and still no cup to their name. Nice!!!!

Weren't they nearly swept by the team Detroit nearly knocked out in 7 games last year?

Great insight, brah

 

[The Zermanator]

https://twitter.com/Hope_Smoke/status/456178678875975682

I couldn't remember all the details, but if I remember correctly the rumor at the time was thrown around with Nyquist and Tatar was Sheahan. For some reason I think I remember Mrazek's name in the mix as they were thin on goalie prospects at teh time.

But yeah, I will look at the facts that were reported by reputable sources with inside information at the time.

Thanks tho

You said Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, and Mrazek.

Just Tatar and Nyquist alone even has been debunked many times. Tatar or Nyquist. Not both.

And, I'm sorry. Didn't this start with you defending Holland? And you're doing this by claiming he offered Tatar and Nyquist for Bouwmeester?

 

[Dotter]

You said Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, and Mrazek.

Just Tatar and Nyquist alone even has been debunked many times. Tatar or Nyquist. Not both.

And, I'm sorry. Didn't this start with you defending Holland? And you're doing this by claiming he offered Tatar and Nyquist for Bouwmeester?

Oh now it has been debunked? Funny, i never watched that ken Holland interview. Do you mind posting here for everyone to see this Ken Holland interview where he said they weren't involved?

So many names were thrown around I ignored some. When McKenzie speaks, I listen. If you have a better source, then please, by all means, prove it!!! Names were being thrown around like crazy, only two ppl know and that is Feaster and Holland. They had the conversation. The next best source is Mckenzie who I'm sure wasn't there but is credible.

Bet you won't tho. It does not exist. You talk a lot with nothing to back up facts. You just echo what everyone else says and you dance to it like fact.

 

[ScottyBowman]

If people think Tatar, Nyquist, Dekeyser are going to be cornerstone players for the next run to the cup and are untouchables then I can't help but LOL. It's funny how a team with all this star laden power can barely make the playoffs with a top tier coach and now that we have Mickey Mouse as coach, we are absolutely brutal.

 

[The Zermanator]

Oh now it has been debunked? Funny, i never watched that ken Holland interview. Do you mind posting here for everyone to see this Ken Holland interview where he said they weren't involved?

So many names were thrown around I ignored some. When McKenzie speaks, I listen. If you have a better source, then please, by all means, prove it!!! Names were being thrown around like crazy, only two ppl know and that is Feaster and Holland. They had the conversation. The next best source is Mckenzie who I'm sure wasn't there but is credible.

Bet you won't tho. It does not exist. You talk a lot with nothing to back up facts. You just echo what everyone else says and you dance to it like fact.

First of all, your McKenzie 'quote' is some Twitter account called Hope_Smoke quoting McKenzie. Got anything from the big man himself? Seems if Detroit was offering their two best prospects (by far, at the time), he might have tweeted that himself, no?

Secondly, unfortunately no physical proof. McKenzie and McGuire discussed it on Insider Trading which doesn't keep archives that long as far as I can tell. The rumoured deal was Sheahan, Jurco, and a 2nd. Best I can offer is this:

Poster on HF discussing what he heard on Insider Trading:

I believe Pierre for the simple fact that bob mckenzie was talking about the same thing.

Said Det offered better prospects + 2nd, CGY was stuck on getting a 1st. Mckenzie went on to say he believe the prospects were Jurco + Sheahan but couldn't confirm it.

he discussed this a day prior to Jaybo being moved on insider trading, or the quiz, or one of those shows.

Thread in question: http://hfboards.collegesportscores.org/showthread.php?t=1399097&highlight=det&page=5

And an article from LeBrun supporting this position:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/23150/rumblings-blues-wings-jagr-and-coyotes

My belief is that Detroit’s final offer on Bouwmeester was a second-round pick and two prospects. And frankly, that’s as far as the Wings could have gone.

What's more likely? Two unnamed prospects being Sheahan and Jurco, or Detroit's 2 premier prospects at the time.

Regardless, let's say that were hypothetically true. Holland offers Nyquist and Tatar for Bouwmeester. Not exactly the best reflection of his competence is it?

Keith, Toews, Kane. Nice trio. Wings never tanked for 1st overalls before. Are you suggesting they should? You want Ken Holland demoted to head scout from GM because he didn't have the foresight to draft Keith? Lol??!?

Making things up again. Really doesn't help your case, and reveals an inability to form solid arguments.

EDIT: And by the way, you're original proposition was to look at the Cup winners and see how unrealistic it was to acquire one. You were probably thinking of Drew Doughty at the time, weren't you? 2nd overall. Thus the Keith mention. You're attempting to twist people's arguments and making personal attacks without addressing any substance from their arguments. There's a name for that on message boards, by the way.

And Chara was drafted 56th overall. The only team whose won since 2010 with a top defenseman drafted in the 1st round in LA.

Weber. Did he win a cup? No? Didn't think so. Good player, but he doesn't guarantee a cup win. Therefore, he's not Ken Holland's savior. amirite?

Hockey is a team game, did you know that? Are you suggesting Weber is not a Cup calibre player? Real solid argument there.

Subban. Nice player with a bit of attitude problems. Not really a DRWs type guy. But MTL did miss the playoffs with him leading the charge a few years ago. Bet you forgot about that. They got a top 3 pick and still no cup to their name. Nice!!!!

See Weber, S.

Weren't they nearly swept by the team Detroit nearly knocked out in 7 games last year?

Whole lot of nearlys in there... And how's Montreal doing now?

Great insight, brah

Thanks.

 

[8snake]

If people think Tatar, Nyquist, Dekeyser are going to be cornerstone players for the next run to the cup and are untouchables then I can't help but LOL. It's funny how a team with all this star laden power can barely make the playoffs with a top tier coach and now that we have Mickey Mouse as coach, we are absolutely brutal.

Yup. I see posts talking about players like Gus, Tatar and Sheahan being "untouchable" and "cornerstone pieces"...I would trade all three without blinking to upgrade this roster. DD is a solid complimentary d-man, but geez...he's not a guy to anchor your blue line. I think most every fan base is usually too enamored with their prospects and tends to overrate them, but it's still crazy to see at times on here.

 

[The Zermanator]

Yup. I see posts talking about players like Gus, Tatar and Sheahan being "untouchable" and "cornerstone pieces"...I would trade all three without blinking to upgrade this roster. DD is a solid complimentary d-man, but geez...he's not a guy to anchor your blue line. I think most every fan base is usually too enamored with their prospects and tends to overrate them, but it's still crazy to see at times on here.

I just think we're too thin at D to afford giving up DK. We'd just then be looking for a #3 instead of a 1 or 2. But I agree about Nyquist and Tatar. One of them needs to be the centrepiece of a trade for a #1-2. Add Mantha or Svechnikov if need be, another decent prospect, and a pick.

 

[Dotter]

I'm not really interested in responding to your hockey message forum buddy's roommates' cousin hearing from a source that Mckenzies' limo driver might have heard a trade proposal from Ken Holland, then posted his hearsay gossip on a random message forum or blog. But thanks for the link?!

EDIT: And by the way, you're original proposition was to look at the Cup winners and see how unrealistic it was to acquire one. You were probably thinking of Drew Doughty at the time, weren't you? 2nd overall. Thus the Keith mention. You're attempting to twist people's arguments and making personal attacks without addressing any substance from their arguments. There's a name for that on message boards, by the way.

And Chara was drafted 56th overall. The only team whose won since 2010 with a top defenseman drafted in the 1st round in LA.

Actually my exact quote was:

go back and look at the cup winners since 2010 and see where those top forwards and dman were drafted (or traded for)

Chara is a nice story and all, but he was a FA signing from the new cap era casualty. CHI was winning some cups without Keith since Kane and Toews and depth was enough. Those 1st overall picks really got them a nice core to build around. A luxury Detroit/Holland/most fans aren't interested in tanking for. Do you want to tank for those kind of picks?

Hockey is a team game, did you know that? Are you suggesting Weber is not a Cup calibre player? Real solid argument there.

Sure is a team game. Look at all the teams since 2010 that had 1st and 2nd and 3rd overall picks / players (*including Seguin for Boston). When was the last time Detroit picked 3rd overall? Do you want them to pick top 3 in 2016?

*Bruins traded Phil Kessel for 2nd overall pick (Seguin) -- an asset Detroit doesn't possess to trade for a top 3 pick because they win too much. Do you want Detroit to win less for a top 3 pick?

Whole lot of nearlys in there... And how's Montreal doing now?

I don't know, how is MTL doing now in this wonderful 10-12 game sample size? Should the NHL just award them the cup now and call it a season? Because from my hockey analysis, they haven't won anything yet. Just as Detroit hasn't missed the playoffs yet.

But I guess since Detroit is .500 their first 10 games of the season with a new coach/system/players they should fire Holland because he whiffed on Duncan Keith some years ago instead of blaming the scouts for missing, Ken Holland gets blamed for missing. While at the same time Danny Dekeyser fell into Ken Holland's lap and gets no credit. Funny how that works. Damned if you do, damned if you don't

EDIT:

Does Ken Holland get blamed for Jiri Fischer having an unforeseen career ending heart condition, too?

 

[The Zermanator]

OK, last response because I'm getting pretty bored with this.

I'm not really interested in responding to your hockey message forum buddy's roommates' cousin hearing from a source that Mckenzies' limo driver might have heard a trade proposal from Ken Holland, then posted his hearsay gossip on a random message forum or blog. But thanks for the link?!

Sorry, I guess Hope_Smoke is now the definitive hockey source. Got anything from McKenzie? As a side note, I don't expect you to find anything because expecting someone to find a three year old tweet that doesn't exist is unreasonable.

Don't believe it if that's what you want but no one calls the guy out on it. We've both been around these forums for a while, do you think it's likely that someone would make a claim about hearing something on tv and no one in a general board thread calls them out on it if it was a fabrication? Read that thread (or don't, don't really care), no one was disputing that. Not nearly as many at least as were disputing the Tatar/Nyquist claim.

TZE is on record on the Wings forums in disputing the ridiculous Tatar and Nyquist rumour and on board with the Sheahan, Jurco, 2nd rumour. Typically a pretty knowledgeable guy around here.

Actually my exact quote was:

Chara is a nice story and all, but he was a FA signing from the new cap era casualty. CHI was winning some cups without Keith since Kane and Toews and depth was enough. Those 1st overall picks really got them a nice core to build around. A luxury Detroit/Holland/most fans aren't interested in tanking for. Do you want to tank for those kind of picks?

Really, you got anything to support that? They win without the multiple Norris winner who plays 30 minutes a game in the playoffs and won a Conn Smythe? Ballsy claim to make.

Sure is a team game. Look at all the teams since 2010 that had 1st and 2nd and 3rd overall picks / players (*including Seguin for Boston). When was the last time Detroit picked 3rd overall? Do you want them to pick top 3 in 2016?

*Bruins traded Phil Kessel for 2nd overall pick (Seguin) -- an asset Detroit doesn't possess to trade for a top 3 pick because they win too much. Do you want Detroit to win less for a top 3 pick?

Who cares how many top 3 picks we have? We have two superstars who were drafted in the 5th and 6th rounds respectively. Same difference. Detroit didn't have a top 3 pick when they won in '08 and almost won in '09. So you're assumption that having a top 3 pick is necessary to win is baseless.

I don't know, how is MTL doing now in this wonderful 10-12 game sample size? Should the NHL just award them the cup now and call it a season? Because from my hockey analysis, they haven't won anything yet. Just as Detroit hasn't missed the playoffs yet.

We're 1/8 of the way into the season, the small sample size argument becomes weaker and weaker by the game. Why was everyone freaking out when we went on a terrible streak to finish the season a couple seasons ago and nearly missed the playoffs? Small sample size, right?

Sure, they haven't missed the playoffs. But they have had their playoff fates decided on the very last game of the season in recent times. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Holland. If they lose that one last game they don't make the playoffs, completely out of Holland's hands.

But I guess since Detroit is .500 their first 10 games of the season with a new coach/system/players they should fire Holland because he whiffed on Duncan Keith some years ago instead of blaming the scouts for missing, Ken Holland gets blamed for missing. While at the same time Danny Dekeyser fell into Ken Holland's lap and gets no credit. Funny how that works. Damned if you do, damned if you don't

I'm so sorry, I thought you were debating me this whole time! But you keep making claims that I haven't said at all! So you must be arguing with someone else! Unless you think that by distorting what I say and arguing about that somehow makes you the 'winner'? Congratulations! You've won an argument with a figment of your imagination!

EDIT:

Does Ken Holland get blamed for Jiri Fischer having an unforeseen career ending heart condition, too?

See above comment, just laughable.

 

[Dotter]

Who cares how many top 3 picks we have? We have two superstars who were drafted in the 5th and 6th rounds respectively. Same difference. Detroit didn't have a top 3 pick when they won in '08 and almost won in '09. So you're assumption that having a top 3 pick is necessary to win is baseless.

Thank you for making my point even more valid. Ken Holland built the team you are boasting about above. It took 6 years from the previous cup win, with a new coach, new core, new system... but the man did it again.

 

[The Zermanator]

Thank you for making my point even more valid. Ken Holland built the team you are boasting about above. It took 6 years from the previous cup win, with a new coach, new core, new system... but the man did it again.

I don't think you've really had a consistent point yet, more like belligerent incoherence towards anything I've said. But ok, you're welcome.

Ken Holland did not build that team to the extent you believe he did. Lidstrom has nothing to do with him. And when Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted Holland had far less power than he does now. Those are the overwhelming reasons for that Cup win right there.

But that's all moot, this happened 7 years ago.

You're really giving Holland a whole lot of wiggle room based on old accomplishments. Doesn't change the fact that the defense has deteriorated tremendously under his watch. But you laughed at the idea of signing Suter for big money earlier so I really don't know what to tell you.

Thanks for the laughs but I'm really done now, this will just go in circles forever. But this team will not compete for a Cup until a top pairing defenseman comes in. And if your golden boy doesn't do something soon, this team will be lottery team when 13/40/55 are gone. Even with Larkin, Nyquist, Tatar, Mrazek, and Co. That's all I've got to say on the matter.