Speculation: Armchair GM Thread - Looking to the offseason

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Porter Stoutheart

Seen Stamkos?
Jun 14, 2017
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... We have to wonder if he will return, and even if so, will it be at 100% or 70% function? A Johansen at 70% over 30 would be essentially a 3rd or 4th line player.
I'm going to say that Johansen this season at 100% was already a 3rd or 4th line player. He got a few more points than a 3rd or 4th line player due to higher utilization, but his 18 Even Strength points are the same pace as Colton Sissons.

At 70% he is probably not an NHL player at all.
 
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herzausstein

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Still wouldnt mind seeing Joey with a different coach as his production decline does line up with Hynes coming in. Still if he comes back slower (which given the nature of the injury seems assured), i dont kniw where we use him. Either way, only 2 seasons left and he is decent at faceoffs maybe he can center smith and sissons and they take a very defense centric roll. Understandably, his production will likely dip more but it is what it is.

Hopefully, he can come back full strength but id rather start giving glass, novak, and/or Parsinnen the top 6 minutes so they can get acclimated to them and have the more offensively gifted linemates
 

BigFatCat999

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I fully agree with this, but like others stated, this is not an easy injury to come back from compared to others.


I know people break their backs and return and are fine, but there are also plenty of stories like the one in the Titan's weight room where the guy dropped the bar on himself and will never play football again. (I think it was 2-3 years ago)

We're a bit spoiled because players come back from soft-tissue injuries all the time and they take such good care of their bodies they rarely have career ending injuries now, but it does still happen from time to time. Even at the professional level. We have to wonder if he will return, and even if so, will it be at 100% or 70% function? A Johansen at 70% over 30 would be essentially a 3rd or 4th line player.

I actually have him at 3rd line RW
 
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herzausstein

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Hopefully in the post-season presser they give us a full data dump on these injuries. I can't imagine what the motivation would be for not doing so. Aside from just thinking we don't care/aren't that interested. Which is probably true for many fans. But... still sucks for the rest of us. :(
Duchene - disappearing fingertip syndrome
Forsberg - concussion

Think those are the only two ive got any idea on.
 

Adz

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Duchene - disappearing fingertip syndrome
Forsberg - concussion

Think those are the only two ive got any idea on.
I'm still trying to figure out how that happens through a glove. If it was that forceful, you can bet the rest of his hand was crushed and mangled. Left hand and I think he's right handed so I guess that's a silver lining.
 

ShagDaddy

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Duchene - disappearing fingertip syndrome
Forsberg - concussion

Think those are the only two ive got any idea on.
Josi got concussed when smith hit him in the head behind our net.

I'm still trying to figure out how that happens through a glove. If it was that forceful, you can bet the rest of his hand was crushed and mangled. Left hand and I think he's right handed so I guess that's a silver lining.
Lack of padding on the palm side of the glove.
 

glenngineer

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@Porter Stoutheart

There are multiple theories on how to build a Cup winner. I'll try to be brief in all the ways I have seen and which is the most realistic for the Preds.

Tank, land a generational talent and surround them with complimentary talent. This morning I heard that Crosby came into the league, scored 102 points and didn't make the playoffs his first year. Pittsburgh was an anomaly in that they landed two generational talents and a pretty impressive goalie in three years. Add Letang to that mixture and you have a promising chance of going all the way.

Draft high enough to land solid, if not elite players and then get lucky in later rounds to land elite talents. Tampa is an example. Stamkos and Hedman at 1 and 2. Land Vasi in the mid 1st and then draft Kuch (2nd) and Point (4th). While landing Stamkos and Hedman meant they weren't very good, their GM and staff did a great job of finding great talents in the later rounds. Once again, they were surrounded by complimentary players that produced when it mattered.

Vegas almost got it right in the way they assembled their expansion team in a much different way. Assemble 3 lines of second line talent and a fourth line that was more like a third line. They had a solid d corp and a goalie that played well. This is a great model IMO if you can't find the unicorn as you like to call it. They came up short in the finals and I think that was more due to not having a number 1 defenseman. While their d-corp was solid overall, they didn't have that play driver.

Let's discuss Boston for a moment and figure out this weirdness. No high picks other than Hall, who they acquired. Flip side, they landed a Pasta late in the first, Marchand in the third, Bergeron and Krejki in the second if I'm not mistaken. Their D has a star in McAvoy yet he wasn't a high pick and who would've ever thought Ullmark and Swayman would lead a team to this many wins? Do they go all the way and win? Well, we beat them with a minor league roster at home a few weeks ago so anything is possible. Needless to say, this team is about as balanced as I've seen in a long time plus they have gamebreakers.

For the Preds, I envision us going the route of what Vegas did but we have to do it through the draft, free agency and trades. The problem with going this route is you have to have the salary cap room to have 9 second line forwards, which could be tricky. I think where Poile has failed is he has usually built a roster with 2 second lines, and traditional third and fourth lines. The lack of depth when injuries mount or players don't produce is too much to overcome. Where Poile has failed as a GM in his career is his inability to draft an elite forward in any round. In 40 years, this was his blindspot. Either he didn't know how to evaluate talent or he hired people who he thought could evaluate or he told them to look for certain qualities. Any way you look at it, he built from the net out and while that works in the regular season, elite goalies are great for regular season play but don't always get it done in the playoffs.

So where does that leave us as an organization? We have a top 9 IMO for next year. Between the injured players: Duchene, Forsberg, Johansen and Parssinen coming back, the young players who show promise: Glass, Tomasino, Novak, Evangelista, that's 9 forwards right there. I wasn't high on Sherwood but he has chemistry with Novak and Evangelista so I'd pencil him as the 9th forward. It doesn't mean we can't go out and sign a free agent who takes that spot but that's a good place to start. Sherwood is probably not going to hit second line numbers but a few of these should be over the mean for what second line players produce so I think it's a plus in our favor. You have a fourth line of Sissons, Trenin and someone who can provide a little punch (offensively and physically) and you have a solid top 12. I purposely left Smith out as I think he's too much of an offensive black hole for a team built like this. Once again, maybe you go out and find a free agent who fits this role better.

Your PP1 and PP2 look solid as you have the vets with Parssinen and Josi on unit 1 followed by what we've been seeing as PP1 lately with the kids. To me, that's exciting. You also have the option of finding combos of 5 that work great together.

I have no issue with the way the defense looks going into next season. I think Fabbro has benefitted the most from the extra playing time and forced to find his game. Barrie provides another good PP QB. Josi will continue to Josi stuff and McD is a solid vet that's a winner.

Here's the wild card. What if a team that has high expectations this year flops in the playoffs and that team wants a shake up? If you're Trotz, do you go big and make a blockbuster deal to acquire an elite forward, even if the price is Saros plus whatever else you have to add to that package? Say Toronto calls and says, we want Saros plus and you get Matthews in return(with a long-term deal in place), who flinches? What if Florida called and offered up Barkov? While these types of deals rarely happen, is Toronto going to let Matthews walk for nothing? Doubtful. Remember, Boston moved Joe Thornton for a second pairing defenseman, second line forward and third line forward. Guess what happened, Joe never won a Cup yet a few years later, Boston won a Cup. Weird how they traded a pretty solid center and ended up being better off in the long run for it. I don't know that Matthews is the answer but if I have a chance to acquire that type of forward, I do it every day of the week, even if it means moving my elite goalie. There's always a risk but we've seen where elite goalies have taken us and we've seen where elite goalies have toiled in mediocrity or had playoff failure after playoff failure and yes, I'm talking Henrik and Price. Vasilevsky is the only elite goalie to win since Brodeur won is 2003. Even then, Giguere won the Conn Smythe that year.

I think the team goes route one, see what you have with this current group and if an opportunity presents itself to land an elite center via trade, Trotz makes the move in hopes that it catapults the team over the hump.

I know I said I'd keep it brief but I've been going all day so I apologize for the lengthy post. If you ever want to get together for a drink and discuss in person, I'd be up for it because while we can express our opinions and thoughts on here, I feel some of it is lost in translation. Have a great night.
 

Kat Predator

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I think a team can win a Cup and be carried by great goaltending. We almost did it in 2017. The Canadiens made a similar run to the finals in the COVID season with Price having an incredible playoffs. St. Louis had a flash-in-the-pan goaltender who had a special symbiotic run with a group of big, bruising defensemen mangling people through their playoff run all the way to the brass ring. And of course there are the unicorn goalies like Roy and Brodeur, perhaps even more rare than the unicorn centers.

I'm on board with the "best 20" plan. It's a solid plan and it can work. It takes some attention and good management of cap resources. We were in that space in 2017, but now, with big contracts given to Josi, Forsberg, Duchene ... and the flat cap for a few seasons, we're less so. Some of our "top 6" players the past couple of seasons are bottom 6 players on true contenders. Some of our bottom 6 guys wouldn't sniff the best 20 on a team like Boston. It also takes a commitment to roll skill, speed, and scoring ability over a smash mouth, slobber knocker style. A system that develops offensive punch and counterpunch, doing the unexpected, taking some chances, and at the expense of a simple defense first game. The best group of 20 might not have "the guy" to go toe-to-toe with McDavid or MacKinnon, but it can have guys on those other lines that can produce and run the role players and discount pieces around a McDavid unicorn out of the building.
 

predwings

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Vegas almost got it right in the way they assembled their expansion team in a much different way. Assemble 3 lines of second line talent and a fourth line that was more like a third line. They had a solid d corp and a goalie that played well. This is a great model IMO if you can't find the unicorn as you like to call it. They came up short in the finals and I think that was more due to not having a number 1 defenseman. While their d-corp was solid overall, they didn't have that play driver.

Vasilevsky is the only elite goalie to win since Brodeur won is 2003. Even then, Giguere won the Conn Smythe that year.
Vegas: 3 lines of second line talent and a fourth line of third line talent is an interesting strategy. In theory it should make your team more solid across the board. It could also saddle us with middling contracts and multiple Kyle Turris type players who aren't capable of repeating the 2nd line performances anymore and send us back down this crap hole of salary cap purgatory.

Vasilevisky: He was a reason they won the cup that year, but unlike Rinne his team was scoring consistently in front of him during their run. Which won them the cup. We might be able to include Rinne in this if we didn't lose Fiala and Joey for that finals match-up. We were surviving by the luck of the young guns and then lost to a superstar team because we didn't have anyone who could dominate on the road and Rinne came back to earth. Elite goalies can help you steal games. Rarely do they help steal Cups.

Most teams who win the cup have one thing in common, a superstar player they can build a nucleus around. Most of these teams have drafted drafted highly or scouted way better than others and found talent in later rounds. Hard to call it luck when teams like Tampa and Boston consistently do it. While I loved the push for the playoffs and the young guns, a 15th or 16th OA pick isn't really going to produce anything for us anytime soon. There's nothing of value to trade it for, so essentially in essence this draft will be a dump for us. A group of guys that will be ready in 3-4 years to start being part of the team. Meanwhile the current core will most likely be gone by then, sans Josi and Forsberg. Albeit they'll be much older and on the decline by then likely. So what are we going to do in the interim to find success? It's hard to measure but I guess we just need to draft and develop better and set ourselves up for a 3-4 year turn around. I think it will involve needing some high draft picks to make it happen.
 

glenngineer

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Very rarely, if ever, do elite goalies carry a team to a Cup. The only one I recall is Roy in '93 where he willed that team to a Cup. I forget the numbers but it was either 9 or 11 one-goal games that he won in that playoffs. He was elite and got hot at the same time.

Vasilevsky had a similar run two years ago I believe where he had a shutout in every round. The big difference is he had a potent offense playing in front of him.

Reality is most teams win with good goalies who get hot for a two month period.

For as good as Hasek was, he never carried a team to a Cup until he got to Detroit, who had the firepower in front of him to help him get over the hump.

In reality, the formula for the most part has been two elite forwards, a solid second line center, another 3 forwards that fill out the first two lines, a third line that is physical and can contribute offensively, a fourth line that is there for energy and PK duties (not a ton of minutes). The back end usually has an elite PMD and two other top 4 defenders who can eat a lot of minutes. The other three are serviceable who can eat PK minutes. Then you have a solid goalie that makes the stops he's supposed to make and then makes some he's not supposed to.

If you go back and look at Cup winners over the last 20 or so years, this is what they look like in some variation or another.

With the team we currently have, I'd still go top 9 with a fourth line that can produce like a third line. That coupled with the D and goalie we have would be a contender.

Evangelista-Novak-Sherwood
Duchene-Glass-Tomasino
Forsberg-Parssinen-Johansen
Afanasyev-Sissons-Trenin

If you're Trotz, I would probably look for a guy who's the same style player of Sherwood but can contribute more offensively.

Two lines that rely on speed and have a lot of offensive creativity followed by a heavy line and then a fourth line that is more than capable. Now imagine if you can add an elite center and all of them move down a line or shift to the wing. That would be sexy.
 

Porter Stoutheart

Seen Stamkos?
Jun 14, 2017
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12,165
What would you draft pick value;

Sissons @50%
Johansen (as LTIR cap buffer?)
I would want 2 1sts for Sissons at 50%. That’s not worth it for the other team.

We’d have to give up 2 1sts to get somebody to take Johansen. That’s not worth it for us.

What’s the endgame here? Why do you want to trim Cap when we don’t need to and are already undermanned? :huh:
 

BigFatCat999

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I would want 2 1sts for Sissons at 50%. That’s not worth it for the other team.

We’d have to give up 2 1sts to get somebody to take Johansen. That’s not worth it for us.

What’s the endgame here? Why do you want to trim Cap when we don’t need to and are already undermanned? :huh:

Just bored looking at the draft value chart and imagining trades. Thank you for the input
 

Kat Predator

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sign who? The FA class is shit and will be shit next yr. New NHL paradigm; sign players so they never make FA.
You realize this argument undermines trading him to another team so they can sign someone, right?

Anyway. Trade or signing some younger veterans (plural) would be possible. I'd pass on this year's Duchene, if such was there.
 

PredsV82

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There isnt a center in UFA worth signing. Best players are wingers and theyre 50-60 point players mostly. Id rather just see how the young guys do and not waste our time
Yeah the whole point of a youth movement is to let the kids develop. I don't think the mirage of a playoff run(fueled as much by Winnipeg and Calgary being shitty as us being good) will change that approach. We might sign one UFA winger this summer if Trotz thinks Evangelista needs more time in Milwaukee but I suspect that would be the most he would do.
 

Armourboy

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Yeah the whole point of a youth movement is to let the kids develop. I don't think the mirage of a playoff run(fueled as much by Winnipeg and Calgary being shitty as us being good) will change that approach. We might sign one UFA winger this summer if Trotz thinks Evangelista needs more time in Milwaukee but I suspect that would be the most he would do.
Kind of my thought. I think the only way he does anything major is if a true 1C became available for some reason.
 

herzausstein

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If we go a top 9 route, signing a 50-60 point winger is the right move. Big if.
Considering the big question marks at center, thatd be my focus personally. I like what we have seen out of tomasino and Evangelista and would like to get them top 6 time with duchene and forsberg. We get a 50-60 point winger and i would almost bet that hynes has 1 of them in the ahl.

Glass - decent 1st full year with Nashville. 40 point pace. 49.6 faceoff win %. Age 24, RFA.

Parssinen - solid production in his rookie year. 46 point pace. No clue what his ceiling is. Great work ethic and has impressed at all levels. Went about 50% for faceoffs so not bad at all. Age 22 and 1 more year on elc.

Novak - 69 point pace this season. Shooting % will dip but even at a reasonable shooting% of 10% he would be close to 60 points this year. BAD at faceoffs. 44% win%. Will be 26 at end of this month and will be 27 going into UFA at end of next season.

Ghost of RyJo or Ryjo's Revenge - who knows what we get

Sizzler - is what he is. Solid defensively and pitches in offensively. Been a good leader with the injuries we have as well.
 
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