Speculation: Armchair GM Thread III: Post Deadline, Now with more armchairing

[DFF]

Getting 2 minutes extra a game with actual top line linemates and being a centrepiece of one of the best top pp units in the league does that.

So we can have another 100 pt scorer by just pick someone and put him on the top line and give him a couple extra mins?

 

[DFF]

The only thing I’ll admit to in this thread is trading Tkachuk is stupid. I’m of the opinion that Gaudreau will bolt when his deal is up, I’d trade him anytime between now and then if the offer is right.

Don’t @ me.

I have a feeling if we trade Johnny, we'd get back a package of garbage like we did with Gilmour and Phaneuf.

 

[super6646]

So we can have another 100 pt scorer by just pick someone and put him on the top line and give him a couple extra mins?

That is a bit of a dramatic way of looking at things DFF, but you cannot deny that giving Lindy extra opportunity led to additional success. Playing in the middle six with Derek Ryan and Jeff Skinner compared to playing consistent top line minutes with Gaudreau and Monahan is night and day.

And I want to note that this is what I said:

"Don’t know what drugs Chevy is on to trade Connor and Laine for Gaudreau. I’d be hard pressed to trade one of them from a jets perspective for Gaudreau."

Again, I was responding to the suggestion that Gaudreau held as much value as Laine and Connor (which no he does not), and I never stated I would do this from Calgary's perspective either. It frankly does not make sense for either team involved.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

That is a bit of a dramatic way of looking at things DFF, but you cannot deny that giving Lindy extra opportunity led to additional success. Playing in the middle six with Derek Ryan and Jeff Skinner compared to playing consistent top line minutes with Gaudreau and Monahan is night and day.

And I want to note that this is what I said:

"Don’t know what drugs Chevy is on to trade Connor and Laine for Gaudreau. I’d be hard pressed to trade one of them from a jets perspective for Gaudreau."

Again, I was responding to the suggestion that Gaudreau held as much value as Laine and Connor (which no he does not), and I never stated I would do this from Calgary's perspective either. It frankly does not make sense for either team involved.

Calgary would be foolish to turn down that deal. We would lose 15-20pts from Connor to Johnny and add a 40-50 goal scorer in Laine.

There’s no way the Jets do it.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Gaudreau is a much much better hockey player than both Connor and Laine. Flames fans don't deserve him.

 

[Lunatik]

Let's just hoard left wingers then and never address the top lines needs. Good chat.

How the f*** does this address our top lines needs? Lindholm was a near point per game right handed right wing and you somehow think having Laine replace him makes the line better? Even though replacing Lindholm with Laine on that line weakens their defensive play, hurts them on faceoffs, makes them less physical, hurt them in terms of possession, and turns a well balanced line where all 3 guys can score goals and set up plays to one where they need to feed one guy the puck or he's useless.

Yeah, absolutely brilliant. Completely bastardize the line because you think a one dimensional shooter is somehow the answer.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Yeah I wouldn’t deal Lindy for Laine either.

 

[Deen]

How the **** does this address our top lines needs? Lindholm was a near point per game right handed right wing and you somehow think having Laine replace him makes the line better? Even though replacing Lindholm with Laine on that line weakens their defensive play, hurts them on faceoffs, makes them less physical, hurt them in terms of possession, and turns a well balanced line where all 3 guys can score goals and set up plays to one where they need to feed one guy the puck or he's useless.

Yeah, absolutely brilliant. Completely bastardize the line because you think a one dimensional shooter is somehow the answer.

Our team is too small if you actually watch the games. All the kids in the hopper are small. We need a Right Winger with size. You're just stat watching.

 

[Lunatik]

Our team is too small if you actually watch the games. All the kids in the hopper are small. We need a Right Winger with size. You're just stat watching.

You keep bringing up size, but his size is irrelevant because he doesn't use it. You claim I'm stat watching, when it's pretty clear you've never seen him play.

 

[crackdown44]

Our team is too small if you actually watch the games. All the kids in the hopper are small. We need a Right Winger with size. You're just stat watching.

Laine doesn’t hit and he’s not all that great at protecting the puck down low either

The only thing he uses his size for is his reach to get better angles for his shot

 

[Volica]

Gaudreau is a much much better hockey player than both Connor and Laine. Flames fans don't deserve him.

This 100%

 

[Lunatik]

Let's fast forward to next summer. We have both Brodie and Hamonic as UFAs, how does the new Gardiner contract impact them? They're the same age as Gardiner, thus will be a year older when they start their new contracts, Brodie especially is extremely comparable to Gardiner. Do you think we can re-sign one of them in the 4x4 range? Maybe less?

 

[Mobiandi]

Let's fast forward to next summer. We have both Brodie and Hamonic as UFAs, how does the new Gardiner contract impact them? They're the same age as Gardiner, thus will be a year older when they start their new contracts, Brodie especially is extremely comparable to Gardiner. Do you think we can re-sign one of them in the 4x4 range? Maybe less?

In a world where Michael Stone was signed to 3.5x3, the short answer is "no". The long answer is "hell, no"

 

[Lunatik]

In a world where Michael Stone was signed to 3.5x3, the short answer is "no". The long answer is "hell, no"

That is an overly simplistic view since Stone was a #4 defenseman at the time he signed and lost his spot to a blood clot. It also ignores that cap has essentially gone flat with little to no growth expected for next season.

 

[super6646]

That is an overly simplistic view since Stone was a #4 defenseman at the time he signed and lost his spot to a blood clot. It also ignores that cap has essentially gone flat with little to no growth expected for next season.

Hell no he was not. Underlying numbers in 2016-17 showed that he pretty clearly was not suited for #4 minutes, and his limited time in that role this year was pretty bad as well.

He signed on as a #5-6. Should have never gotten 3 years with that aav when Andy was projecting well in the AHL. I can understand making a change with wideman all but cooked, but throwing a fifth round pick away for the privilege of buying that same player out a couple years later is rough.

 

[Lunatik]

Hell no he was not. Underlying numbers in 2016-17 showed that he pretty clearly was not suited for #4 minutes, and his limited time in that role this year was pretty bad as well.

He signed on as a #5-6. Should have never gotten 3 years with that aav when Andy was projecting well in the AHL. I can understand making a change with wideman all but cooked, but throwing a fifth round pick away for the privilege of buying that same player out a couple years later is rough.

He was signed to be a top 4 replacement in case of injury, as per Treliving himself at the time. And I don't give a f*** about "underlying numbers", if someone thinks you can determine defensive play through numbers alone they are a an idiot. His acquisition was a major turning point for this team and considering how bad Brodie was before adding Stone that year, I believe the eye test and our GM over these "underlying numbers"

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Let's fast forward to next summer. We have both Brodie and Hamonic as UFAs, how does the new Gardiner contract impact them? They're the same age as Gardiner, thus will be a year older when they start their new contracts, Brodie especially is extremely comparable to Gardiner. Do you think we can re-sign one of them in the 4x4 range? Maybe less?

Gardiner is a comparable sure, but the factors of A. He was likely waiting for Toronto and missed out on a lot of teams that spent their cap space elsewhere B. went to UFA with a significant injury recently and C. Overall a pretty tight cap free agency where A again played a factor.

Not saying it isn't a comparable, but it's got other factors involved and isn't a vacuum at all. Brodie I think is far closer to Tyler Myers than he is Gardiner personally. So maybe somewhere in that scale.

I'd love to keep both if for no other reason than expansion is coming up but with cap space at a premium who knows.

 

[Lunatik]

Gardiner is a comparable sure, but the factors of A. He was likely waiting for Toronto and missed out on a lot of teams that spent their cap space elsewhere B. went to UFA with a significant injury recently and C. Overall a pretty tight cap free agency where A again played a factor.

Not saying it isn't a comparable, but it's got other factors involved and isn't a vacuum at all. Brodie I think is far closer to Tyler Myers than he is Gardiner personally. So maybe somewhere in that scale.

I'd love to keep both if for no other reason than expansion is coming up but with cap space at a premium who knows.

I think in the case of Myers he got a combination of the shitty team premium and the RHD premium. I think he, Brodie and Gardiner are all pretty even.

I think Hammer we can get for 4x4 or less because I know he wants to play in this area. Hell, I honestly wouldn't be shocked if he took a slight paycut.

Brodie, with his wife's health condition, I think will be seeking a 5-7 year deal in a city with a top Neurology program.

 

[Mobiandi]

That is an overly simplistic view since Stone was a #4 defenseman at the time he signed and lost his spot to a blood clot. It also ignores that cap has essentially gone flat with little to no growth expected for next season.

Neither Hamonic nor Brodie are going to take a paycut just because Gardiner got squeezed out by the cap and no other team could fit him in due to their own problems with regards to their RFAs. It would be like telling Frolik to take $1.5 million next summer because Pat Maroon did so for the Blues despite a 43 point season

 

[Lunatik]

Neither Hamonic nor Brodie are going to take a paycut just because Gardiner got squeezed out by the cap and no other team could fit him in due to their own problems with regards to their RFAs. It would be like telling Frolik to take $1.5 million next summer because Pat Maroon did so for the Blues despite a 43 point season

So where will this cap space to sign them at raises come from? All but 12 teams are within $5 of the upper limit already this year and 7 of those teams still have at least 1 RFA to sign.

Since the cap likely won't raise much again next summer, there will as little or less cap space available to FAs and no good teams will have very much. SO, if they have any designs on winning, they may be forced to take smaller contracts and someone like Hamonic who wants to be in Western Canada will have even fewer options.

Also, as it stands the UFA crop of defensemen next summer is top notch, so guys like Brodie will be quite a bit further down the pecking order for teams, which could cost him even more money.

 

[Mobiandi]

So where will this cap space to sign them at raises come from? All but 12 teams are within $5 of the upper limit already this year and 7 of those teams still have at least 1 RFA to sign.

Since the cap likely won't raise much again next summer, there will as little or less cap space available to FAs and no good teams will have very much. SO, if they have any designs on winning, they may be forced to take smaller contracts and someone like Hamonic who wants to be in Western Canada will have even fewer options.

Also, as it stands the UFA crop of defensemen next summer is top notch, so guys like Brodie will be quite a bit further down the pecking order for teams, which could cost him even more money.

This season's meager cap increase caught a lot of GMs off-guard. I think it was projected to rise ~4 million back in January.

Montreal isn't that far off from being a playoff team. Although they have little cap space, they have the most desperate GM in the league. They're due to sign someone to an albatross of a contract

Colorado looks poised to make the next step and they're probably very eager to improve their defense

Anaheim is also an option, with Eaves's contract expiring and Vegas has plenty of players coming off the books next season.

The options are there. This offseason was an anomaly in my opinion and we still saw Philly sign Kevin Hayes to a 7x7

 

[Nanuuk]

Sometimes certainty of location and circumstance might play a role in taking a 'hometown' discount. Should the Flames have another outstanding year why chase money elsewhere? The grass isn't always greener on the other side and if your family loves it where they are, don't rock the boat. Especially if it means keeping the team together.

 

[super6646]

He was signed to be a top 4 replacement in case of injury, as per Treliving himself at the time. And I don't give a **** about "underlying numbers", if someone thinks you can determine defensive play through numbers alone they are a an idiot. His acquisition was a major turning point for this team and considering how bad Brodie was before adding Stone that year, I believe the eye test and our GM over these "underlying numbers"

Once again with the personal insults from you ... Running a 105 pdo for a 19 game stretch is the definition of a hot stretch, and his play the following 2 seasons made it clear he was never an adequate top 4 dman in any capacity. The fact that peters thought Andersson was a better top 4 option after about 2 games of stone in the top 4 (this was all pre-blood clot) despite being a rookie and experiencing early growing pains says a lot.

I don’t deny that bringing in stone likely got the flames into the playoffs given wideman’s disasterous play, but call a hot stretch for what it is instead of defining a player by it.

 

[Deen]

You keep bringing up size, but his size is irrelevant because he doesn't use it. You claim I'm stat watching, when it's pretty clear you've never seen him play.

Size gives you options in front of the net. Blocks the goalies eyesight, doesn't get pushed around easily, can bang in loose pucks because of his positioning. Laine might not be Iginla, but he does have a bit of a mean streak in him. If you think flying a bunch of 5'11 and under forwards are going to get it done, I will refer you to the Colorado series where we got overwhelmed, outsized, and overmatched.

 

[Lunatik]

Once again with the personal insults from you ... Running a 105 pdo for a 19 game stretch is the definition of a hot stretch, and his play the following 2 seasons made it clear he was never an adequate top 4 dman in any capacity. The fact that peters thought Andersson was a better top 4 option after about 2 games of stone in the top 4 (this was all pre-blood clot) despite being a rookie and experiencing early growing pains says a lot.

I don’t deny that bringing in stone likely got the flames into the playoffs given wideman’s disasterous play, but call a hot stretch for what it is instead of defining a player by it.

How is it a personal insult if I don't know (or care) how you judge defense? PDO is such a stupid f***ing stat, especially over a short time period as facing a couple weak goaltenders or yours having a few hot games skews it massively. In the season after he signed, he was adequate for anyone that watched him play, the only people shitting on him are the advanced stat crowd that think that stats measure defense.

Maybe you should be giving credit to Andersson rather than shitting on Stone, because Stone's play wasn't bad. Also, sometimes some players fit better together than others. But, I get it, you don't like Stone so you will put him down every opportunity possible, just like you did with Smith last year when you bitched and cried everytime Smith started a game down the stretch