Speculation: Armchair GM Thread: I can't believe it's not butter, I can't believe we didn't get Ryan Hartman.

[The Gnome]

True enough but it is more than depth that you need, Nashville has a GM that is not afraid to make big moves and they have a coach that plays to the teams strength.

If I told you at the start of the season, that Johnny, Monahan and Ferland would have career highs in points, Matthew Tkachuk would have more points than he did last year, Dougie Hamilton would have a good year and Mike Smith would also have a good and we could still miss the playoffs, you would laugh at me. So it more than depth.

I feel like you've answered your own concerns. Our solid young core is performing, and Smith is simply awesome at this point. It's the depth pieces that are missing. Fill in the XXXs with minimal disruption to the core and we'll be a great team as long as Tre isn't dumb enough to keep GG an Co. around.

 

[viper0220]

This isn't directed only to you but with the earlier discussion about who is an upgrade at center and then which of those guys are available who would you like the Flames to get?

I ask this only because the list is so small that I think it is reasonable for a poster to have some idea of who it could be. If you are going to say lets package Monahan and get a better guy who is that going to be? Because I have a very hard time seeing it happening at all.

This is very hard and this is something that I have thought about for a while, I think Tavares, Mackinnon(this ship has sailed, before when he was struggling there was a chance) and Barkov(this is debatable but I think he is ahead of Monahan and with the crap management he can be had.)

 

[viper0220]

I feel like you've answered your own concerns. Our solid young core is performing, and Smith is simply awesome at this point. It's the depth pieces that are missing. Fill in the XXXs with minimal disruption to the core and we'll be a great team as long as Tre isn't dumb enough to keep GG an Co. around.

Filling in the depth pieces is not easy because those can't be crap pieces, they need to be the right pieces.

 

[The Gnome]

Filling in the depth pieces is not easy because those can't be crap pieces, they need to be the right pieces.

Yes, I agree, because right now it's pretty easy to see that we don't have the right pieces in our bottom six and we could really use another sniper in the top 6. All I know is that Monahan is not the player holding use back. He's one of the few that keeps us afloat in spite of horrible depth and a crap coaching staff.

If you put Malkin in for Monahan we would not be good enough to go deep in the playoffs.

 

[Baxterman]

True enough but it is more than depth that you need, Nashville has a GM that is not afraid to make big moves and they have a coach that plays to the teams strength.

If I told you at the start of the season, that Johnny, Monahan and Ferland would have career highs in points, Matthew Tkachuk would have more points than he did last year, Dougie Hamilton would have a good year and Mike Smith would also have a good and we could still miss the playoffs, you would laugh at me. So it more than depth.

I kind of disagree with your assessment at the end there after listing all those things.

To me if all of our best guys have great years, and not just great years for them but in terms of the NHL, and we still don't make the play-offs it seems that yes the problem is 100% the depth.

Its not like Gaudreau had a career year because his previous best was 40 points he is top 10 in scoring, Monahan is top 15 in goals and top 20 scoring for C's, Hamilton is top 20 scoring for defense and leading in goals, Mike Smith is top 10 in terms of starters for gaa and sv %. I didn't check but my guess is Tkachuks numbers stack up well against other 2nd line guys and rookies/2nd year players as well. I think it is hard to argue that Gio is not a good, if not better, top pairing guy.

Where the real issue comes in is the 3rd and 4th lines.

Here are some of the stats for top teams main 3rd lines:

Boston- Heinen- 42 pts Nash- 40 pts Backes- 28 pts
Tampa- Palat- 30 pts Johnson- 48 pts Kunitz- 24 pts
Toronto- Marleau- 40 pts Kadri- 50 pts Komorov- 19 pts
Nashville- Hartnell- 22 pt Jarnkok- 35 pt Bonino- 22 pts

Calgary- Bennett- 26 pts Jankowski- 21 pts Hathaway- 11 pt (Brouwer 20 pts)

Now obviously some of these guys have moved around and there are other factors but they are all at the bottom end of the teams top 9 so it isn't like switching them out for others changes the numbers that much. Also those teams second lines also mostly beat the 3M numbers as well.

 

[Iggys Dome]

I posted this in the Trade rumours thread about a Flames shake up, would you guys do Brodie+Bennett+Kylington for Zibanejad+Bruins/Rangers first?

I don't think Bennett is gonna explode anytime soon, I truly think his ceiling is a 40 pt winger or centre in the right situation, and I think we have enough d-prospect depth to move Kylington. I bet it gives Adam Fox incentive to sign faster as well as he moves up the depth chart.

We get a late first, which is better than not picking until 93.

Gaudreau-Monahan-New RW
Tkachuk-Zibanejad-Ferland
New LW-Backlund-Frolik
Shore-Jankowski-Brouwer

Gio-Hamilton
Andersson-Hamonic
Kulak-Stone

 

[viper0220]

I kind of disagree with your assessment at the end there after listing all those things.

To me if all of our best guys have great years, and not just great years for them but in terms of the NHL, and we still don't make the play-offs it seems that yes the problem is 100% the depth.

Its not like Gaudreau had a career year because his previous best was 40 points he is top 10 in scoring, Monahan is top 15 in goals and top 20 scoring for C's, Hamilton is top 20 scoring for defense and leading in goals, Mike Smith is top 10 in terms of starters for gaa and sv %. I didn't check but my guess is Tkachuks numbers stack up well against other 2nd line guys and rookies/2nd year players as well. I think it is hard to argue that Gio is not a good, if not better, top pairing guy.

Where the real issue comes in is the 3rd and 4th lines.

Here are some of the stats for top teams main 3rd lines:

Boston- Heinen- 42 pts Nash- 40 pts Backes- 28 pts
Tampa- Palat- 30 pts Johnson- 48 pts Kunitz- 24 pts
Toronto- Marleau- 40 pts Kadri- 50 pts Komorov- 19 pts
Nashville- Hartnell- 22 pt Jarnkok- 35 pt Bonino- 22 pts

Calgary- Bennett- 26 pts Jankowski- 21 pts Hathaway- 11 pt (Brouwer 20 pts)

Now obviously some of these guys have moved around and there are other factors but they are all at the bottom end of the teams top 9 so it isn't like switching them out for others changes the numbers that much. Also those teams second lines also mostly beat the 3M numbers as well.

Very good points, the depth and this is coaching staff has really killed us this year. The usage of the depth has not been good either.

 

[viper0220]

I posted this in the Trade rumours thread about a Flames shake up, would you guys do Brodie+Bennett+Kylington for Zibanejad+Bruins/Rangers first?

I don't think Bennett is gonna explode anytime soon, I truly think his ceiling is a 40 pt winger or centre in the right situation, and I think we have enough d-prospect depth to move Kylington. I bet it gives Adam Fox incentive to sign faster as well as he moves up the depth chart.

We get a late first, which is better than not picking until 93.

Gaudreau-Monahan-New RW
Tkachuk-Zibanejad-Ferland
New LW-Backlund-Frolik
Shore-Jankowski-Brouwer

Gio-Hamilton
Andersson-Hamonic
Kulak-Stone

I kind of like this, could we just do Brodie+Kylinton for Zibanejad.

I think Sam Bennett under a coach like Darryl Sutter, can flourish.

Gaudreau-Monahan-S. Bennett
Tkachuk-Zibanejad-Ferland
New LW-Backlund-Frolik
Shore-Jankowski-Brouwer

Gio-Hamilton
Andersson-Hamonic
Kulak-Stone

Smith
Rittich

How does this team compare to the Boston Bruins, Tampa Bay Lighting, the Nashville Predators, the Pittsburgh Penguins and the Winnipeg Jets? Because if you want to contend, you have to beat the best.

 

[Figgy44]

True enough but it is more than depth that you need, Nashville has a GM that is not afraid to make big moves and they have a coach that plays to the teams strength.

If I told you at the start of the season, that Johnny, Monahan and Ferland would have career highs in points, Matthew Tkachuk would have more points than he did last year, Dougie Hamilton would have a good year and Mike Smith would also have a good and we could still miss the playoffs, you would laugh at me. So it more than depth.

Poile has been with Nashville since 1997. He was with the Capitals for 15 years prior to that. He was given flexibility and the opportunity to look at the big picture. The fact he doesn't have to look over his shoulder definitely helps long term. The Erat for Forsberg trade should be a good example of this. Poile was able to look long term and be patient vs McPhee who was looking over his shoulder. Let's not make him look more amazing than he really is, even if he's damn amazing.

List of Nashville Predators seasons - Wikipedia
History of hockey trades by general manager David Poile - NHL Trade Tracker

Look at these lists. Poile being able to focus on the big picture and be patient is a huge part of his success. He does have some great trades, but if you pay attention, his moves are similar to Trelivings. Lots of meh trades, a few trades he lost and the occasional splash trade.

Brad as a young rookie GM to now has brought the team to the playoffs 2/4 seasons. He has never walked away from a season where he did not address team needs and in a situation where he has handcuffed the team long term in horrific ways. Brouwer and Hamonic are probably the biggest so far, but they're not horrid. They also on paper looked like good moves at the time. It's not his fault he was dealt a rough hand for this season and Bennett. He has resolved the complete mess that was our farm team. He unified the team playing styles as best as he could and then made sure the farm team wasn't dealing with idiotic travel schedules. He's made the NHL roster and farm talent pipeline respectable from the previous disaster it once was. He also fixed the Flames reputation of being ripped off in trades. He's broken the ownership buyout mandate, broken the Honda Centre Curse and the Buffalo curse, navigated around the Wideman effect... What else do people want? Treliving for sure ha made small steps towards making the overall org and system better. That's a guy I'd like to keep.

I'd be fine turfing all sorts of other staff without hesitation though.

 

[Iggys Dome]

@viper0220 I would definitely just do Brodie+Kylington for Zibanejad if possible. I just want the late first to be able to pick something in this years draft, so I think it's necessary to add Bennett.

 

[viper0220]

Poile has been with Nashville since 1997. He was with the Capitals for 15 years prior to that. He was given flexibility and the opportunity to look at the big picture. The fact he doesn't have to look over his shoulder definitely helps long term. The Erat for Forsberg trade should be a good example of this. Poile was able to look long term and be patient vs McPhee who was looking over his shoulder. Let's not make him look more amazing than he really is, even if he's damn amazing.

List of Nashville Predators seasons - Wikipedia
History of hockey trades by general manager David Poile - NHL Trade Tracker

Look at these lists. Poile being able to focus on the big picture and be patient is a huge part of his success. He does have some great trades, but if you pay attention, his moves are similar to Trelivings. Lots of meh trades, a few trades he lost and the occasional splash trade.

Brad as a young rookie GM to now has brought the team to the playoffs 2/4 seasons. He has never walked away from a season where he did not address team needs and in a situation where he has handcuffed the team long term in horrific ways. Brouwer and Hamonic are probably the biggest so far, but they're not horrid. They also on paper looked like good moves at the time. It's not his fault he was dealt a rough hand for this season and Bennett. He has resolved the complete mess that was our farm team. He unified the team playing styles as best as he could and then made sure the farm team wasn't dealing with idiotic travel schedules. He's made the NHL roster and farm talent pipeline respectable from the previous disaster it once was. He also fixed the Flames reputation of being ripped off in trades. He's broken the ownership buyout mandate, broken the Honda Centre Curse and the Buffalo curse, navigated around the Wideman effect... What else do people want? Treliving for sure ha made small steps towards making the overall org and system better. That's a guy I'd like to keep.

I'd be fine turfing all sorts of other staff without hesitation though.

Brad Trevling has done a good job and when I said that it was not a shot at Brad Trevling.

My biggest squarels with Brad Trevling are the Hamonic trade, this was not a smart decision. Even from the start there was no need to waste assets on D because we had a pretty good Defense and had some good defensive prospects, so why waste the assets on Defense, when we needed help up front. The signing of Brouwer is not great but we did not give any assets and that contract will run out.

Sam Bennett really sank the ship here, he was expected to take over the #1 Center position but that may not happen. This not anyone's fault.

I don't know how he broke the "Honda Curse", this was on the players and I don't think he "navigated around the Wideman effect", this was handled by lawyers and that dam referee will get a payout, the buyout was more than likely approved by ownership.

For the other things, yes he did fix them but this season has over shadowed what he has done, this off season will likely be the most important of his tenure as a Flames GM. If he does not fire GG and the whole coaching staff he will come under fire(the coaching staff does need to go and this time hopefully a good veteran coach is bought in), the team needs desperately needs a top 6 forward(preferably a RW) and the bottom 6 needs to be worked on and be better.

 

[viper0220]

@viper0220 I would definitely just do Brodie+Kylington for Zibanejad if possible. I just want the late first to be able to pick something in this years draft, so I think it's necessary to add Bennett.

Sam Bennett still has more potential than a late first round pick, so that is why it is better to keep Sam Bennett.

 

[Body Checker]

Sam Bennett still has more potential than a late first round pick, so that is why it is better to keep Sam Bennett.

Yeah you don’t trade Sam with supressed value

 

[Figgy44]

Brad Trevling has done a good job and when I said that it was not a shot at Brad Trevling.

My biggest squarels with Brad Trevling are the Hamonic trade, this was not a smart decision. Even from the start there was no need to waste assets on D because we had a pretty good Defense and had some good defensive prospects, so why waste the assets on Defense, when we needed help up front. The signing of Brouwer is not great but we did not give any assets and that contract will run out.

Sam Bennett really sank the ship here, he was expected to take over the #1 Center position but that may not happen. This not anyone's fault.

I don't know how he broke the "Honda Curse", this was on the players and I don't think he "navigated around the Wideman effect", this was handled by lawyers and that dam referee will get a payout, the buyout was more than likely approved by ownership.

For the other things, yes he did fix them but this season has over shadowed what he has done, this off season will likely be the most important of his tenure as a Flames GM. If he does not fire GG and the whole coaching staff he will come under fire(the coaching staff does need to go and this time hopefully a good veteran coach is bought in), the team needs desperately needs a top 6 forward(preferably a RW) and the bottom 6 needs to be worked on and be better.

TL;DR - Not targeting you, but I'm asking and musing about why Poile is being heralded as a great GM, but the fire Treliving stuff doesn't go away. As mentioned, Poile has been there since 1997. He has been forgiven for errors he has made and praised for the successes he has had.

I wasn't trying to say you're shooting down Treliving. I'm saying that Poile, one of the best GMs out there in many metrics isn't as amazing as hinted at. He is very mortal and given the ability to fail and be forgiven. Something I wish we'd offer to Treliving. Poile is almost mentioned as if he is some super smart GM who does Forsberg vs Erat trades every other Tuesday on some occasions (not saying you said that). All I'm saying is that the guy might be essentially the best GM out there, but he doesn't have a cup even after decades of GMing the Preds. He takes his time to make moves like Tre.

There's also interpretation. You mentioned a splash. Hamonic was supposed to be that splash. I think Tre had been cooking that deal for a long time and was also aiming to bolster the defense if the goalie situation didn't look good (ie: We ended up with Smith and Lack). It's perhaps a boring splash, sure, but I'm sure it was a calculated move. By all accounts, our season last year with his improvements over the off season should have easily said, "Playoff repeat". But here we are now. As for help up front, our team is designed to do that by supporting from the back. That's how our d core is built. Like I said, interpretation.

By all accounts, on paper, we were better than last season.

The buyout thing is new. Ask some of the older fans. Ownership allowing buyouts and salary retention is rare. Like once in a blue moon rare. We shipped out Regehr to get rid of Kotalik's salary. Think about that.

 

[FLAMES666]

Brodie and Ferland need to be traded for upgrades on the RW and the coaching staff needs to go

 

[viper0220]

TL;DR - Not targeting you, but I'm asking and musing about why Poile is being heralded as a great GM, but the fire Treliving stuff doesn't go away. As mentioned, Poile has been there since 1997. He has been forgiven for errors he has made and praised for the successes he has had.

I wasn't trying to say you're shooting down Treliving. I'm saying that Poile, one of the best GMs out there in many metrics isn't as amazing as hinted at. He is very mortal and given the ability to fail and be forgiven. Something I wish we'd offer to Treliving. Poile is almost mentioned as if he is some super smart GM who does Forsberg vs Erat trades every other Tuesday on some occasions (not saying you said that). All I'm saying is that the guy might be essentially the best GM out there, but he doesn't have a cup even after decades of GMing the Preds. He takes his time to make moves like Tre.

There's also interpretation. You mentioned a splash. Hamonic was supposed to be that splash. I think Tre had been cooking that deal for a long time and was also aiming to bolster the defense if the goalie situation didn't look good (ie: We ended up with Smith and Lack). It's perhaps a boring splash, sure, but I'm sure it was a calculated move. By all accounts, our season last year with his improvements over the off season should have easily said, "Playoff repeat". But here we are now. As for help up front, our team is designed to do that by supporting from the back. That's how our d core is built. Like I said, interpretation.

By all accounts, on paper, we were better than last season.

The buyout thing is new. Ask some of the older fans. Ownership allowing buyouts and salary retention is rare. Like once in a blue moon rare. We shipped out Regehr to get rid of Kotalik's salary. Think about that.

Don't worry about targeting Fig, I know you aren't

I think the reason Poile does not get a close up scrutiny is because he does GM a team in a market where there is not a lot of pressure(the best reason I can come up with.)

Hamonic was suppose to be a splash but the team bombed and it made it worse than it should be but this is warranted because the pick can be very high and this is a very good deep draft. I think making the playoffs and getting swept was the worse thing to happen to this team, it gave false hopes.

The owner probably thought we were close and agreed to a buyout.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Hot take: Trade Backlund and Brodie for a C upgrade.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

If Raanta makes it to free agency we absolutely need to get him, I don't care if it'll cost us 3,000,000 bucks.

 

[Mr Snrub]

Hot take: Trade Backlund and Brodie for a C upgrade.

That better be one hell of a C

 

[Mobiandi]

I'd like to get Grubauer in free agency if possible

 

[Ace Rimmer]

If we offered Tavares $11 million in the offseason, would that be enough to land him?

Would have to shuffle some money around, but it is theoretically doable if the cap goes up as expected.

 

[SKRusty]

The only free agent signing the Flames need to do is Coach Quenneville. I would love to hear Kovalchuk to but coach Q will be the difference maker.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

The only free agent signing the Flames need to do is Coach Quenneville. I would love to hear Kovalchuk to but coach Q will be the difference maker.

Doesn't he still coach Chicago? I mean, sure if he's available, but I'm not convinced he will be.

 

[SKRusty]

Doesn't he still coach Chicago? I mean, sure if he's available, but I'm not convinced he will be.

There has been speculation that Stan Bowman and Coach Q have had a falling out. Analysts have pointed out that the firing of Mike Kitchen is the writing on the wall that Quenneville likely won't be back with Chicago.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Hot take: Trade Backlund and Brodie for a C upgrade.

You can’t improve on perfection.