Are you feeling more or less optimistic about the leafs future since Dubas took over?

[Stephen]

It's so true he's so emotionally involved that he's blinded.

I'm more curious as to why he's so invested in the core group to the point where he'll repeatedly talk about consequences to himself. At the end of the day, the point is to win a championship and take steps to get there, building methodically and deliberately through great asset management. I don't think the purpose is to stake your reputation on a matter of principle... it's not about being right, it's about being good...

 

[hamzarocks]

Well, Justin Bourne was a video coach with the Toronto Marlies when Dubas was running the team between 2015 and whenever, so the conversation was framed as, what's he like behind the scenes.

Oh okay thanks I didn't know that to be the case. Interesting news. Hopefully Dubas is calmer this year and can see the leafs do well in the playoffs

 

[Stephen]

Oh okay thanks I didn't know that to be the case. Interesting news. Hopefully Dubas is calmer this year and can see the leafs do well in the playoffs

I don't care if he's calm, I just think he needs to run the team in cold, hard, ruthless asset management point of view, and not be so personally attached to specific players and a specific vision.

 

[ottomaddox]

Justin Bourne and JD Bunkis had an interesting chat about Kyle Dubas behind the scenes and how emotional and temper tantrum-y he can be (July 26th epsiode) and how he'll fly off the handle from time to time to time. Never heard of him talked about in those ways before, since his public persona is always the well polished young compassionate innovator. Really touched on how he's very defensive.

Leafs Hour - Sportsnet.ca (13:30 mark).

Pretty hard-hitting episode today.

What stood out to me was when Keefe/Dubas were labeled "lame duck GM/,Coach".

Kind of scary if they fulfill their destiny.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

I'm more curious as to why he's so invested in the core group to the point where he'll repeatedly talk about consequences to himself. At the end of the day, the point is to win a championship and take steps to get there, building methodically and deliberately through great asset management. I don't think the purpose is to stake your reputation on a matter of principle... it's not about being right, it's about being good...

So if he truly thinks they can win with the 4 and that it's the best way to build the Leafs/not trading one is the best course of action for the team being good what do you expect him to say?

We can debate whether or not that philosophy is correct but the only way his words/statements come off odd to me is if there is reason to doubt he believes what he does.

Given the fanbases' appetite for change is quite high right now it wouldn't be hard for him to sell making a big move to the core if he wanted to - so I assume he just believes in the core.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Pretty hard-hitting episode today.

What stood out to me was when Keefe/Dubas were labeled "lame duck GM/,Coach".

Kind of scary if they fulfill their destiny.

Sad he'll go down believing in his philosophy and people rather than doing what it takes to win

 

[Stephen]

So if he truly thinks they can win with the 4 and that it's the best way to build the Leafs/not trading one is the best course of action for the team being good what do you expect him to say?

We can debate whether or not that philosophy is correct but the only way his words/statements come off odd to me is if there is reason to doubt he believes what he does.

Given the fanbases' appetite for change is quite high right now it wouldn't be hard for him to sell making a big move to the core if he wanted to - so I assume he just believes in the core.

I don't find the emphatic conviction, emotional honesty and whatever brand of good guy stuff to be that successful as a public message. In this highly charged offseason, I think a nerdy corporate Ross Atkins might actually work better for for damage control, whatever his actual beliefs are. "Process, evaluate, leave no stone unturned, anything to make the Leafs better." Hmm okay, have at it Kyle, seems to have it under control. Instead he and Shanny have been very defensive and I think that alienates people.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

Sad he'll go down believing in his philosophy and people rather than doing what it takes to win

What is the philosophy were talking about here? Guys been the GM 3 seasons and the complaints I've heard leading up to this past year is that he:

Doesn't believe in grit - guy signed Simmonds, Bogosion, traded for a traditional grit and character guy in foligno, previously traded for Muzzin, Clifford

Doesn't care about the D - but just ran out probably the best d core this past season we have seen the leafs run in 20 years - legitimately.

Matthews and Marner didn't show up. Its brutal - it sucked - but the question is in the future do you expect them to not show up? He believes in those two guys getting better. I just don't think that's as insane as other people seem to make it honestly.

 

[Stephen]

Pretty hard-hitting episode today.

What stood out to me was when Keefe/Dubas were labeled "lame duck GM/,Coach".

Kind of scary if they fulfill their destiny.

I don't necessarily want Shanahan or Dubas to lose their jobs, just don't frame next season as an all or nothing proof of concept about your career. Manage the team well, make sure the Leafs are in good hands. Tell us you'll make the tough decisions for the better. Keep at it until you win. But don't make it about your beliefs, your job security, your consequences.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

I don't find the emphatic conviction, emotional honesty and whatever brand of good guy stuff to be that successful as a public message. In this highly charged offseason, I think a nerdy corporate Ross Atkins might actually work better for for damage control, whatever his actual beliefs are. "Process, evaluate, leave no stone unturned, anything to make the Leafs better." Hmm okay, have at it Kyle, seems to have it under control. Instead he and Shanny have been very defensive and I think that alienates people.

That's fine - I get it then. I think that he puts the emphasis on himself to try to take blame over Marner/Matthews. I honestly think it comes back to the original Babcock quote when he arrived in Toronto about making it as safe as possible for the players given the markets' demands.

It's fair if we disagree on that though.

 

[ShaneFalco]

What is the philosophy were talking about here? Guys been the GM 3 seasons and the complaints I've heard leading up to this past year is that he:

Doesn't believe in grit - guy signed Simmonds, Bogosion, traded for a traditional grit and character guy in foligno, previously traded for Muzzin, Clifford

Doesn't care about the D - but just ran out probably the best d core this past season we have seen the leafs run in 20 years - legitimately.

Matthews and Marner didn't show up. Its brutal - it sucked - but the question is in the future do you expect them to not show up? He believes in those two guys getting better. I just don't think that's as insane as other people seem to make it honestly.

First I think you have to have a coach who will make changes. I didn't think id have to say that about Keefe.
And stop thinking Marner at 24 min a night is some kind of solution. And sit his ass off the PP
They won't Mitch has some kind of entitlement here. Anyone else - no PP goals all season, no playoff goals in 18ngames - maybe you look at other options. In fact you have to

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

First I think you have to have a coach who will make changes. I didn't think id have to say that about Keefe.
And stop thinking Marner at 24 min a night is some kind of solution. And sit his ass off the PP
They won't Mitch has some kind of entitlement here. Anyone else - no PP goals all season, no playoff goals in 18ngames - maybe you look at other options. In fact you have to

Sounds like you think the roster is good and Keefe is the problem then. That's also on Dubas but in fairness Keefe has had 1.5 full seasons (and even the 1 full season wasnt even a full season in normal circumstances).

I'd split Matthews and Marner up at 5v5 and move Marner down to the goal line on the PP (Nylander on the halfwall opposite of Matthews). I hope they try more things like that.

If the coaching staff fails to make adjustments and Dubas doesn't make a change there then I will definitely have major issues with that though.

 

[killer1980]

Less. Is that all on Dubas? No. It’s mostly on the lack of “give a f***s” players on the team have exhibited.

Think that's one of the jobs of a GM, to evaluate how much heart the player has. But, since Dubas would rather be buddies with his players than their boss, it is unlikely he could make that determination. Simply put, he stinks and considering how many bad GMs the Leafs have had, he will go down in history as the absolute worst.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

Think that's on of the jobs of a GM, to evaluate how much heart the player has. But, since Dubas would rather be buddies with his players than their boss, it is unlikely he could make that determination. Simply put, he stinks and considering how many bad GMs the Leafs have had, he will go down in history as the absolute worst.

This is the type of comment I keep seeing that is mindblowing to me.

He overpaid Marner by 1.5-2M at the time for sure. He probably overpaid Tavares by 1-2m.

He traded For Muzzin, Campbell - got rid of the Zaitsev contract - signed Brodie, Tavares (slight overpayment as mentioned but its Tavares...)

Worst GM? Look at the roster. They've underperformed no doubt and if he runs it back and they lose he will continue to take criticism - but worst GM? My god man. Hes not trading for Duncan Keith, Rasmus Ristolainen, 30 year old OEL over here.

 

[Stephen]

That's fine - I get it then. I think that he puts the emphasis on himself to try to take blame over Marner/Matthews. I honestly think it comes back to the original Babcock quote when he arrived in Toronto about making it as safe as possible for the players given the markets' demands.

It's fair if we disagree on that though.

I think we half agree. It would be “safer” for everyone if he dialed down the temperature on everyone and just stick to the building process. Doesn’t have to sacrifice a core player in the end but at least listen. And keep a cooler head and don’t talk about staking your career on anything or betting or the quality of the people. It’s irrelevant.

 

[killer1980]

Hes not trading for Duncan Keith, Rasmus Ristolainen, 30 year old OEL over here.

You are correct sir! He got useless over 40 Joe Thornton, washed up Wayne Simmonds and damaged goods Nick Foligno. He puts in an unproven buddy as coach. I would say that puts him solidly in the running. Let's not talk about the goaltending situation and no cap space. That just wouldn't be fair.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

You are correct sir! He got useless over 40 Joe Thornton, washed up Wayne Simmonds and damaged goods Nick Foligno. He puts in an unproven buddy as coach. I would say that puts him solidly in the running. Let's not talk about the goaltending situation and no cap space. That just wouldn't be fair.

He paid league minimum for Thornton and 1.5m for Simmonds. If those are the gripes with him... I mean those are pretty small moves.

He traded for the goalie who just set the franchise record for wins to start a season. The goaltending issues the past 2 years have been Freddy primarily.

I'm critical of Keefe too but putting the guy he won an AHL championship behind the behind the bench isn't unreasonable. They won their first division title in what - 20 years?

The fact theyve fallen on their face multiple times is bad. But again - worst GM?

The D in game 7 against Boston when Lou was around:

Rielly - Hainsey
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Dermott - Polak

The d this past year.

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Holl
Dermott/Sandin - Bogosion

Hard for me to criticize the GM's roster building when I still think the roster they ran out this year is the best they've had in 20 years. If they continue to fail and they don't make changes - fine - but for now I just don't buy that AM/MM are never gonna figure it out in the playoffs.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

I think we half agree. It would be “safer” for everyone if he dialed down the temperature on everyone and just stick to the building process. Doesn’t have to sacrifice a core player in the end but at least listen. And keep a cooler head and don’t talk about staking your career on anything or betting or the quality of the people. It’s irrelevant.

Yeah I thought the comments after the season when they talked about not trading a core piece were unusual honestly. I think a lot of it was trying to defuse a situation where Marner was getting death threats and awful harassment on social media - didn't want to pile on.

I guess we'll see if he continues to talk like this or not. I've never cared much for the public comments honestly I think it's mostly performative and used to control the narrative (again trying to shield players) and then the tough conversations happen in the board rooms. Or at least I hope they do.

 

[danny90]

Nylander finally realized that with his new contract came the responsibility to continue to earn it. It took him a while
, however I would like to think that a player that coaxed 11 million per year out of the team should know it right away and give it his all from day one

Do you honestly believe players think they should play relative to their contract? Spezza makes league min so he does not have to try as hard? People put expectations on players based on contracts but each player tries to the best of their abilities.

 

[Racer88]

Do you honestly believe players think they should play relative to their contract? Spezza makes league min so he does not have to try as hard? People put expectations on players based on contracts but each player tries to the best of their abilities.

Not all players of course but I firmly believe that some players do back off the effort level once they achieve the big contract. Some players up their level for important games especially the playoffs and some do it for contracts. We certainly know Marner is all about the money

 

[ACC1224]

Do you honestly believe players think they should play relative to their contract? Spezza makes league min so he does not have to try as hard? People put expectations on players based on contracts but each player tries to the best of their abilities.

If the player doesn’t have that will to compete in them they are never successful enough to earn the top dollars. It’s not a tap they turn on and off.

 

[ottomaddox]

What is the philosophy were talking about here? Guys been the GM 3 seasons and the complaints I've heard leading up to this past year is that he:

Doesn't believe in grit - guy signed Simmonds, Bogosion, traded for a traditional grit and character guy in foligno, previously traded for Muzzin, Clifford

Doesn't care about the D - but just ran out probably the best d core this past season we have seen the leafs run in 20 years - legitimately.

Matthews and Marner didn't show up. Its brutal - it sucked - but the question is in the future do you expect them to not show up? He believes in those two guys getting better. I just don't think that's as insane as other people seem to make it honestly.

This list is incomplete.

Other criticisms include:

Maxing out the cap

Trading 1st round draft picks

Hiring a coach with very little NHL experience

Wasting a lot of assets on getting rid of Marleau/Zaitsev contracts.

Letting players walk with nothing in return.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I wish the Leafs had some young elite playoff performers. They have young elite regular season performers.

We have elite young players. Full stop.

And they have young elite players who are paid like they are young elite playoff performers.

No, we have players who were given contracts that they earned, the same as everybody else.

They also don't have an elite GM or coach anymore.

We have a better coach and GM now than any other time under this core.

5 years of first round exits.

None of which feature the team make-up we would have next playoffs, even if nothing changed. You're using one overly simplistic surface result, done by different team make-ups, and ignoring all important context and information, to conclude that this team make-up doesn't work.

 

[ShaneFalco]

We have elite young players. Full stop.

No, we have players who were given contracts that they earned, the same as everybody else.

We have a better coach and GM now than any other time under this core.

None of which feature the team make-up we would have next playoffs, even if nothing changed. You're using one overly simplistic surface result, done by different team make-ups, and ignoring all important context and information, to conclude that this team make-up doesn't work.

No I'm using facts and a salary cap. 5 first round exits and having to go bargain bin shopping to fill out the roster. Not only to fill out the roster but to find what the core lacks - maturity, killer instinct, toughness, standing up for eachother, consistency - and this from management's mouths.

I'd also argue the keefe has proven he can't or will not adapt in the playoffs.

 

[DueDiligence]

No, we have players who were given contracts that they earned, the same as everybody else.

No they weren't earned. those contracts were based on "futures".