Are you feeling more or less optimistic about the leafs future since Dubas took over?

[Bomber0104]

I love how people think that Matthews will leave to go to Arizona.

love the player. But he is clearly a clout chaser. He has been talking about his love of bieber since he got here.

now because he is the best player on the leafs. He is right with bieber and gets into Jenner kardashian and McGregor parties.

the biggest stars in the world. He wants to get into clothing and fashion etc.

The security in his own building didn’t know who he was. Car rental agents don’t even know who the coyotes are.

no one on the kings or knights is getting into these parties.

if he was a quiet small town kid from minny. Sure.

he ain’t leaving. Toronto.

How does Matthews get into these LA parties when he lives in Toronto?

 

[The CyNick]

You know what - if that's the case, maybe I have misrepresented you and I apologize.

It is obvious that you're educated and well spoken. You know what you're talking about and for me, your negativity has been an annoyance for years. With that said, you're not wrong - you're allowed to have your opinion.

Cheers Pal.

 

[A1LeafNation]

He's running back the same core and five first round exits.

If Marner is still a perimeter player and can't score in the playoffs this year, Dubas is insane to repeat the same thing and expect different results.

Also the drafting has turned to shit.

These are my two issues with him right now.

 

[Legion34]

He'll end up in NY then. It's hard to be a supertar and not love NY

how many rangers are at the jenners birthday? If he didn’t have this connection here I would agree with you.

But it’s clear that his connection to bieber is more important to furthering any outside interests than playing for the rangers.

 

[Trapper]

Let's all remember tat @The CyNick did not post on HFboards even one time during the entirety of the 2020-2021 regular season when the Leafs were playing well.

If you're going to get upset with his attempts at trolling on these boards, just remember when he shows up.

I didn’t post much during the Leafs North division season as well.
I believed the division to be more fools gold than anything and took a very let’s wait for the playoffs approach.
Guess what I saw?

 

[Legion34]

How does Matthews get into these LA parties when he lives in Toronto?

off season? Like he has been doing all summer?

how does he get to those parties when he is playing colorado or minny or Edmonton on a Saturday night?


You realize that hockey players spend most of their season on the road right?

 

[justloveleafs]

Matthews seems to be new breed of 'sensitive' male who takes everything as a micro-aggression. He probably views the Toronto media as the enemy for simply bringing up the losing and uncomfortable stuff. With all that being said, I think he will bolt to the states and probably play in a city like LA. One of his buddies is Justin Bieber who has a mansion in Beverly Hills. I don't buy him going home to Arizona.

Great post.

 

[Legion34]

I didn’t post much during the Leafs North division season as well.
I believed the division to be more fools gold than anything and took a very let’s wait for the playoffs approach.
Guess what I saw?

that the worst team In the North made the finals?

 

[Bomber0104]

off season? Like he has been doing all summer?

how does he get to those parties when he is playing colorado or minny or Edmonton on a Saturday night?


You realize that hockey players spend most of their season on the road right?

The idea is still ridiculous.

His Hollywood aspirations won't stop whether he stays or leaves Toronto.

Seems like that's the lifestyle he's chasing and I don't think his buddy Bieber is going to all of a sudden just drop him for signing with an American team.

 

[socko]

Probably worse than the playoff failures for Dubas is how he poisoned the future. He overpaid so greatly that no agent is ever going to see him for anything other than a sucker. We're overpaying for guys like Foligno, who was injured by the way, and paying a premium because we have no cap space and need them to retain huge portions of salary. This should not be happening with a team of guys who still have many years of RFA status and haven't won a single round. The incompetence is mind blowing. Sometimes I think he's a sleeper agent for a rival team.

 

[fahad203]

Probably worse than the playoff failures for Dubas is how he poisoned the future. He overpaid so greatly that no agent is ever going to see him for anything other than a sucker. We're overpaying for guys like Foligno, who was injured by the way, and paying a premium because we have no cap space and need them to retain huge portions of salary. This should not be happening with a team of guys who still have many years of RFA status and haven't won a single round. The incompetence is mind blowing. Sometimes I think he's a sleeper agent for a rival team.

If he didn't he would be flamed as well for not doing anything. Let's face it Foligno rumors started back in January

I wanted Bennett from last year. That dude bleeds blue in every sense. If he did nothing at all, he would hit. He went for less

That's what really bugs me about Dubas. He always good people, not right people

 

[Dekes For Days]

Sports in North America are built around a playoff structure. You define success by those crucial playoff games.

Playoffs are important, but determining the quality of a team based exclusively on their small sample playoff series win/loss record leads to wildly inaccurate and misleading results. There wasn't a playoff series win in either sample, so it's meaningless to this discussion anyway.

If there is no direct correlation between underlying numbers and eventual success in the playoffs

But there is.

BTW - Lou's team set the record for regular season points.

Because that season featured 82 games, and his team fluked into great health, a wildly unsustainable shootout record, and a 35+ journeyman backup goalie waiver claim having a career year and playing at Vezina-level all at once. None of those were sustainable reasons for "success", and our team had a better point percentage this season without all of that.

 

[Legion34]

The idea is still ridiculous.

His Hollywood aspirations won't stop whether he stays or leaves Toronto.

Seems like that's the lifestyle he's chasing and I don't think his buddy Bieber is going to all of a sudden just drop him for signing with an American team.

meh.
The idea that

1.) other teams will be able to outbid during a pandemic. Especially with the 8th year and potential for sb

2.) that he would leave prior to becoming the all time top goal scorer in the most popular teams history.

3.) he knows where his bread is buttered. As a 25 year old youth. He isn’t leaving when he is clout chasing off the biggest leaf fan In the world.

as he gets older. Sure. He could leave half way through his next deal. But No way now. He would leave millions on millions walking away from to as like the third highest scorer.

if you ain’t first you’re last.

 

[The CyNick]

Playoffs are important, but determining the quality of a team based exclusively on their small sample playoff series win/loss record leads to wildly inaccurate and misleading results. There wasn't a playoff series win in either sample, so it's meaningless to this discussion anyway.

But there is.

Because that season featured 82 games, and his team fluked into great health, a wildly unsustainable shootout record, and a 35+ journeyman backup goalie waiver claim having a career year and playing at Vezina-level all at once. None of those were sustainable reasons for "success", and our team had a better point percentage this season without all of that.

I see.

So when do these expected results pan out?

 

[Trapper]

that the worst team In the North made the finals?

Worst team in the playoffs. 18th out of the 16 that should make it. Then they beat the 2nd worst team in Winnipeg.

 

[Legion34]

Worst team in the playoffs. 18th out of the 16 that should make it. Then they beat the 2nd worst team in Winnipeg.

and then who did they beat?

 

[Dekes For Days]

So when do these expected results pan out?

We've been seeing results in literally everything except exclusively our playoffs series win/loss record. It's disappointing that we haven't won yet, but people are drawing baseless conclusions about a team we haven't even really got a chance to see as constructed in the playoffs. People like to blend all the losses together, but we're really a completely different team than we were back then, and we likely would have beat the cup finalist if we didn't lose a massive piece for the entire series.

 

[The CyNick]

We've been seeing results in literally everything except exclusively our playoffs series win/loss record. It's disappointing that we haven't won yet, but people are drawing baseless conclusions about a team we haven't even really got a chance to see as constructed in the playoffs. People like to blend all the losses together, but we're really a completely different team than we were back then, and we likely would have beat the cup finalist if we didn't lose a massive piece for the entire series.

Even if I take this as fact (which I don't), is not the goal to win the ACTUAL games instead of the EXPECTED games? When do we see the fruits of this so called improvement? The other guy is winning ACTUAL games in the playoffs Are ACTUAL wins not more important? It's been 3-0 in playoff results for Lou since he left the Leafs.

If it was one playoff failure, I could see your point. But we're now on three straight under Dubas with this core and ZERO success. If you include the Lou years, we're at 5 straight losses for the big three. Does it ever creep into your mind that maybe some changes to the core are required? Or is it enough that they beat up on teams in a gimmicky division made up mostly of below average regular season teams?

 

[koyvoo]

And that’s a guy who would be happy seeing another Rocket and another playoff of failing to play and produce to your standards and abilities, never mind find another gear.

So we’re seeing results in everything except the one thing that actually matters in this sport. And, if you Yale a close look at the last couple of regular seasons in normal divisions, we weren’t exactly miles above the 8th place team.

I was starting to think that a lot of the younger fans are already a significant enough number that there is indeed a significant number of fans here who don’t know what even marginal playoff success feels like, and thus downplays it. Wait until you experience winning a round. Rockets and and top 5 finishes will mean nothing to you guys after that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Even if I take this as fact (which I don't), is not the goal to win the ACTUAL games instead of the EXPECTED games?

The goal is to build the best team you can to give yourself the best chance to win the cup. You can be upset at the surface results all you want, but making the team worse gets us nowhere. You're asking for guarantees, regardless of circumstances, but there are no guarantees in hockey for any team. You don't give up on some of the best young players the cap era has seen, at age 23.

 

[BertCorbeau]

To answer the question in the OP, definitely less optimistic. That's primarily because the core players have been unable to take this team to the next level despite the team around them being improved overall. They've been unable to capitalize in the spotlight of the playoffs which is tough to see how that will change in the future.

Also disappointed that Dubas still believe in the core. This was probably the off-season to shake things up and re-tool. A couple of benefits would be additional cap space, potentially some additional assets (pick/prospects) that could become useful in a few years. But it seems like a waste to see what this core does again which is likely a playoff disappointment, while Tavares and Muzzin get another year older.

 

[ShaneFalco]

We've been seeing results in literally everything except exclusively our playoffs series win/loss record. It's disappointing that we haven't won yet, but people are drawing baseless conclusions about a team we haven't even really got a chance to see as constructed in the playoffs. People like to blend all the losses together, but we're really a completely different team than we were back then, and we likely would have beat the cup finalist if we didn't lose a massive piece for the entire series.

We would have won if......
We took the cup finalists to game 7..........
It took x team x years to win.......

It's just sad now that fans continue to make excuses for playoff failures every year

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

Even if I take this as fact (which I don't), is not the goal to win the ACTUAL games instead of the EXPECTED games? When do we see the fruits of this so called improvement? The other guy is winning ACTUAL games in the playoffs Are ACTUAL wins not more important? It's been 3-0 in playoff results for Lou since he left the Leafs.

If it was one playoff failure, I could see your point. But we're now on three straight under Dubas with this core and ZERO success. If you include the Lou years, we're at 5 straight losses for the big three. Does it ever creep into your mind that maybe some changes to the core are required? Or is it enough that they beat up on teams in a gimmicky division made up mostly of below average regular season teams?

You're right - its about winning.

People have a misconception about the purpose of analytics though. The point is to be able to look at the results - and say to yourself - is this more or less likely to continue? Now - how do you evaluate that? The analytics help you identify underlying metrics that are more predictive of the future than past results are.

I understand the gripes with expected goals/etc - because it doesn't matter to fans. What matters is winning.

But to a GM or related team-builder - that stuff should matter - because historically it has proven to be more predictive of individual player and team success moving forward than "did the team win last year?"

This is not a perfect example - but look at Brent Seabrook's contract extension as an example. He was paid based on what he was previously - not what he was going to be worth over the value of the deal. Its fine for Chicago because they got 3 cups out of it - but they didn't need to sign him to that deal after the fact - and it was a bad decision to pay him just based on how awesome he was in the past. Its the same deal extrapolated to team success and individual players.

I get wanting to move on from the core/guys like Marner. I'd also say that given his talent level - its extremely unlikely that he continues to disappoint in the playoffs to this extent over the remainder of his contract and career. It just usually doesn't occur that a player that is top 10 in points year to year somehow never figures out how to produce effectively in the playoffs. We also for a few years only heard about how Nylander was awful in the playoffs and he will never be a playoff performer - only for him to be a PPG guy this year in the playoffs playing without his natural C - and a guy who passed through waivers earlier this season.

No issue with people wanting change - but the idea that this group can figure it out isn't insane. Its really about two guys - Matthews/Marner. Can they figure it out? Historically players as good as them do.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Getting rid of Marleau was necessary, and that contract was a result of Lou's incompetence.

Let me ask you a question. If we didn't sign JT would we have had to trade Patty and a 1st to get rid of the 3rd year? If we left him to play it out without JT on the roster..would we have been able to sign Kappy and AJ?

I think it was silly to have that 3rd year for Patty but at the same time...had we not gone and signed JT it would not have caused us to panic to sign our RFA's and pay out capital. On top of that we ended up getting rid of both players AND Patty.

 

[The CyNick]

Probably worse than the playoff failures for Dubas is how he poisoned the future. He overpaid so greatly that no agent is ever going to see him for anything other than a sucker. We're overpaying for guys like Foligno, who was injured by the way, and paying a premium because we have no cap space and need them to retain huge portions of salary. This should not be happening with a team of guys who still have many years of RFA status and haven't won a single round. The incompetence is mind blowing. Sometimes I think he's a sleeper agent for a rival team.

And it's only going to get worse.

He finally brings in a capable backup and tried to groom him to be a starter. Okay fine. But now he's in a position where if Campbell does have a good season he's going to have to pay him $5M a year. In the same year that Reilly is going to be looking for $7-9M. So this losing depth is not ending any time soon. Team will continue to get worse unless a bunch of rookies suddenly become studs.

All stems from being reckless with the cap on the core four.