Are you feeling more or less optimistic about the leafs future since Dubas took over?

[PromisedLand]

I’m not really sure anymore. I bought into the tank for Matthews 100% but we still have had no success 5 years later…….not even a sniff of success just more failure

to be frank it is more dubas than matthews IMHO. Matthews and Marner are what they are; if it is not in their game then it is not in their game to grind out a win.

That said, a talent like Matthews is VERY HARD to find. I think we are very lucky to have Matthews. You build a team around a talent like that to help him out.

you need managers to evaluate the kind of talent they have and then go about team building accordingly to give the team the best chance of success while not screwing up the future.

JT contract is a luxury and Marner contract is an abomination while Matthews contract only sucks because of term IMO, if it was 8 years, I wouldnt have a problem with the cap hit.

dubas gave away ridiculous contracts without proper evaluation of the talent on the roster and with the belief that the core4 will lead the team while the bargain pieces will be sufficient to keep team aflot and successfull in the foreseeable future with "anything can happen" in the playoffs.

Absolutely ridiculous and incompetent mindset from the gm.

 

[DarkKnight]

to be frank it is more dubas than matthews IMHO. Matthews and Marner are what they are; if it is not in their game then it is not in their game to grind out a win.

That said, a talent like Matthews is VERY HARD to find. I think we are very lucky to have Matthews. You build a team around a talent like that to help him out.

you need managers to evaluate the kind of talent they have and then go about team building accordingly to give the team the best chance of success while not screwing up the future.

JT contract is a luxury and Marner contract is an abomination while Matthews contract only sucks because of term IMO, if it was 8 years, I wouldnt have a problem with the cap hit.

dubas gave away ridiculous contracts without proper evaluation of the talent on the roster and with the belief that the core4 will lead the team while the bargain pieces will be sufficient to keep team aflot and successfull in the foreseeable future with "anything can happen" in the playoffs.

Absolutely ridiculous and incompetent mindset from the gm.

Auston Matthews, making that money and still walking into free agency at 26 freaking years old is something people haven’t even really processed here. Fun times ahead.

 

[daveleaf]

Auston Matthews, making that money and still walking into free agency at 26 freaking years old is something people haven’t even really processed here. Fun times ahead.

Unless he wants out do you see him leaving? He will get signed a max deal over 8 years, have four great ones and by the end of that contract he will just be an average player. Just the nature of the game. Is Hyman worth a 7 year contract? I can guarantee you in 3-4 years Edm will desperately want out of that.

 

[TheShape]

He caved on the contract negotiations as we all know, the only way out is to move a core piece (Marner) and Dubas knows this. The problem is I don’t believe he has the authority to make such a trade, similarly how he wasn’t able to fire Babcock when he wanted to. Big moves like these go up the chain of command.

So now Dubas has to wear this.

 

[DarkKnight]

Unless he wants out do you see him leaving? He will get signed a max deal over 8 years, have four great ones and by the end of that contract he will just be an average player. Just the nature of the game. Is Hyman worth a 7 year contract? I can guarantee you in 3-4 years Edm will desperately want out of that.

We have no idea if he stays or not. Absolutely he could leave.

 

[The CyNick]

This thread is looking eerily similar to Canucks fans forcing the firing of the "arrogant I'm-smarter-than-you analytics guy" in Gillis in 2013 for an "Old Boys Club Hockey guy" in Benning. Which clearly worked out great for them...

Can we not come to the conclusion that competent management does not stem from a having an "Analytics Guy" or a "Hockey Guy" as the GM, but from having an adaptable and capable GM surrounded by multiple subject matter experts in the room working together to assist the GM in his shortcomings?

I have said from day one that the Leafs organization should flex their financial muscle where they can. Since there is no salary cap on front office, the team should have an all star roster in the front office.

I had no problem with Dubas as part of a larger group, but he had no business leading the group given his lack of experience winning at the NHL level. The Leafs should always hire the best person for the job, regardless of cost. For some reason, the Leafs acted like a tier 3 organization and went down the budget route and signed a rookie President, who then signed a rookie GM who then signed a rookie coach.

Imagine building a team in the ice and saying we're going with a rookie 1st line centre, a rookie top D, and a rookie starting goalie. Not many would pick that team to go far. Worse, it's not like Dubas has a track record that would indicate he was a can't miss GM. He didn't have any revolutionary ideas. He wasn't a stud negotiator, he wasn't a cap guru. As best I can tell, his best attribute seems to be he's a very good interview and he hoodwinked a guy who was unqualified in his job to hire him over a HOF, 3X Stanley Cup winner, and future 2X GMOTY.

And this isn't even about Lou. If Shanny and the MLSE Board felt it was time for a change, that's fine. But you go out and get the guy with the best track record of winning at the NHL level. You go out and you find out who is the 2nd or 3rd best guy and you give them an offer they can't refuse to be a consultant. You find the best scout in the league and you triple his salary to come here.

Instead the Leafs hired on the cheap. And like everything else in life, you get what you pay for. I think they are still paying Babcock, maybe they can start fresh and get him to actually finish what he started building here. And if not him, find someone else who has their name on the Cup to turn the ship around on the ice. Then take care of the suits, and again, look to the Cup as a recruiting tool. A lot of good names on there. Avoid the guys who have "built an okay junior team" as the highlight of their resume.

 

[ToneDog]

We have no idea if he stays or not. Absolutely he could leave.

Gonna need to free up and be willing to pay 13+m if you want Matty. More likely teams trade for him and send money back. No excuse for leafs not being able to resign him.

 

[ToneDog]

I have said from day one that the Leafs organization should flex their financial muscle where they can. Since there is no salary cap on front office, the team should have an all star roster in the front office.

I had no problem with Dubas as part of a larger group, but he had no business leading the group given his lack of experience winning at the NHL level. The Leafs should always hire the best person for the job, regardless of cost. For some reason, the Leafs acted like a tier 3 organization and went down the budget route and signed a rookie President, who then signed a rookie GM who then signed a rookie coach.

Imagine building a team in the ice and saying we're going with a rookie 1st line centre, a rookie top D, and a rookie starting goalie. Not many would pick that team to go far. Worse, it's not like Dubas has a track record that would indicate he was a can't miss GM. He didn't have any revolutionary ideas. He wasn't a stud negotiator, he wasn't a cap guru. As best I can tell, his best attribute seems to be he's a very good interview and he hoodwinked a guy who was unqualified in his job to hire him over a HOF, 3X Stanley Cup winner, and future 2X GMOTY.

And this isn't even about Lou. If Shanny and the MLSE Board felt it was time for a change, that's fine. But you go out and get the guy with the best track record of winning at the NHL level. You go out and you find out who is the 2nd or 3rd best guy and you give them an offer they can't refuse to be a consultant. You find the best scout in the league and you triple his salary to come here.

Instead the Leafs hired on the cheap. And like everything else in life, you get what you pay for. I think they are still paying Babcock, maybe they can start fresh and get him to actually finish what he started building here. And if not him, find someone else who has their name on the Cup to turn the ship around on the ice. Then take care of the suits, and again, look to the Cup as a recruiting tool. A lot of good names on there. Avoid the guys who have "built an okay junior team" as the highlight of their resume.

Should have scooped coach Q before Florida got him. He would have compensated for the off ice errors.

 

[The CyNick]

Nobody was confused about who you meant. You're just continuing to completely dodge the point while being unnecessarily condescending. As you're well aware, the "win now" mode started long before Dubas. That's why we were signing veteran UFAs, chasing high-value UFAs, keeping valuable pending UFAs, and trading for rentals at the deadline. All things representative of a "win now" mode, not a rebuild.

Lou didn't gamble away 1st rd picks like Dubas and he kept cap flexibility while the core was developing. He did add at the deadline, but that was to help give the young guys a chance at success in the playoffs. The moves didn't end up working in the sense of success in the playoffs, but it showed the young group that management believed in them and rewarded their hard work.

Marleau was brought in to be a mentor, which worked well while he was here. The core looked up to him, almost like a father figure. Once he left, there was a noticeable change in attitude and accountability on and off the ice.

The Tavares signing by Dubas was the line in the sand that this team was expected to compete for the Cup. There's no other reason to bring in a Tavares. In doing so, Dubas created a domino effect that's led to the disaster that currently exists.

 

[The CyNick]

Gonna need to free up and be willing to pay 13+m if you want Matty. More likely teams trade for him and send money back. No excuse for leafs not being able to resign him.

My prediction is he will just walk at the end of the deal. If he was really committed to the organization long term he would have said I'll take the $11M over 8 years. Given that he was trying to squeeze dollars tells me he's not married to being a Leaf.

Things are going to continue to get rocky for him here unless the team goes on a deep run. He will be pressured by sponsors, TV partners, and frankly his own people to go to the States. He's going to ultimately decide he'd rather play in a market that's big enough for his lifestyle, but also small enough from a hockey perspective that he can live a somewhat normal life. LA, Anaheim, and Vegas all seem like great fits.

 

[LeafChief]

Let's all remember tat @The CyNick did not post on HFboards even one time during the entirety of the 2020-2021 regular season when the Leafs were playing well.

If you're going to get upset with his attempts at trolling on these boards, just remember when he shows up.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Lou didn't gamble away 1st rd picks like Dubas and he kept cap flexibility while the core was developing. He did add at the deadline, but that was to help give the young guys a chance at success in the playoffs. The moves didn't end up working in the sense of success in the playoffs, but it showed the young group that management believed in them and rewarded their hard work.

Marleau was brought in to be a mentor, which worked well while he was here. The core looked up to him, almost like a father figure. Once he left, there was a noticeable change in attitude and accountability on and off the ice.

The Tavares signing by Dubas was the line in the sand that this team was expected to compete for the Cup. There's no other reason to bring in a Tavares. In doing so, Dubas created a domino effect that's led to the disaster that currently exists.

Lou wasted assets more than Dubas ever has, and he simultaneously wasted our ELC years by not addressing any actual problems, while still screwing the team's post-ELC cap flexibility with horrible contracts. Adding at the deadline is always to give your team a chance at success, and to show that you believe in them - that doesn't change the fact that it's a win now move, just like chasing UFA superstars (the very thing you're blaming Dubas for), and keeping pending UFAs.

As Dubas has repeatedly shown, mentors don't need to be liabilities on the ice and ridiculously overpaid. Marleau was unnecessary, and the 3rd year was especially unnecessary. Marleau leaving didn't change any attitude or accountability; that's entirely your fabrication. It's also quite irrational to act like his "leadership" was a success and then turn around and make baseless comments complaining about how the players turned out.

The Tavares signing was just another step in the "win now" mode that Lou started long before, but unlike Lou's moves, it actually benefited the team. We're better now than we ever were under Lou, despite not having the benefit of multiple ELC superstars, and having to deal with the countless ways that Lou ignored the long-term health of the team, from cap anchors, to a drained pipeline, to the hostile relationship he fostered with his most important players.

 

[The CyNick]

Lou wasted assets more than Dubas ever has, and he simultaneously wasted our ELC years by not addressing any actual problems, while still screwing the team's post-ELC cap flexibility with horrible contracts. Adding at the deadline is always to give your team a chance at success, and to show that you believe in them - that doesn't change the fact that it's a win now move, just like chasing UFA superstars (the very thing you're blaming Dubas for), and keeping pending UFAs.

As Dubas has repeatedly shown, mentors don't need to be liabilities on the ice and ridiculously overpaid. Marleau was unnecessary, and the 3rd year was especially unnecessary. Marleau leaving didn't change any attitude or accountability; that's entirely your fabrication. It's also quite irrational to act like his "leadership" was a success and then turn around and make baseless comments complaining about how the players turned out. The Tavares signing was just another step in the "win now" mode that Lou started long before, but unlike Lou's moves, it actually benefited the team. We're better now than we ever were under Lou, despite not having the benefit of multiple ELC superstars.

I think most of this is false.

If you did a side by side comparison of the assets spent, I think Dubas has spent far more draft/prospect capital than Lou. As I recall Lou spent a 1st (30th overall I believe) and a 2nd to get a starting goalie (Andy). And then a couple 2nds for deadline acquisitions. One was good (although didn't lead to playoff series win) and the other was hot garbage (a clear miss of a move).

Dubas wasted a 1st to unnecessarily get rid of Marleau, a 1st on Foligno (yikes!), and a 1st plus two prospects for Muzzin (who has been unavailable for 2 of 3 playoffs). That's not to touch on all the other random picks Dubas has tossed away.

Anyway, I'm sure someone who is better at research will post a comparison.

"Were better now" holds no basis in reality. Lou had growth every year. Dubas has 1st round exit, playin exit (worse than losing in 1st round), followed by first round exit in a gimmick division and in embarrassing fashion.

Lou since took a team that should have been in the bottom 5-10 of the league and has three straight years of playoff success including two conference finals losing to the dynasty in the making Tampa Bay Lightning.

Is there no scenario in your mind where you think Lou with 3 more years of building the Leafs would have managed more playoff success than Dubas given what he has accomplished on the Island?

Sometimes we bet on the wrong horse. It's better to just admit it vs trying to say there is success when none exists.

 

[DuklaNation]

Dubas has had enough time already. Why was he hired in the first place? Fantasy league managers could have did better. And that is not hyperbole. What a disaster.

 

[fahad203]

I think most of this is false.

If you did a side by side comparison of the assets spent, I think Dubas has spent far more draft/prospect capital than Lou. As I recall Lou spent a 1st (30th overall I believe) and a 2nd to get a starting goalie (Andy). And then a couple 2nds for deadline acquisitions. One was good (although didn't lead to playoff series win) and the other was hot garbage (a clear miss of a move).

Dubas wasted a 1st to unnecessarily get rid of Marleau, a 1st on Foligno (yikes!), and a 1st plus two prospects for Muzzin (who has been unavailable for 2 of 3 playoffs). That's not to touch on all the other random picks Dubas has tossed away.

Anyway, I'm sure someone who is better at research will post a comparison.

"Were better now" holds no basis in reality. Lou had growth every year. Dubas has 1st round exit, playin exit (worse than losing in 1st round), followed by first round exit in a gimmick division and in embarrassing fashion.

Lou since took a team that should have been in the bottom 5-10 of the league and has three straight years of playoff success including two conference finals losing to the dynasty in the making Tampa Bay Lightning.

Is there no scenario in your mind where you think Lou with 3 more years of building the Leafs would have managed more playoff success than Dubas given what he has accomplished on the Island?

Sometimes we bet on the wrong horse. It's better to just admit it vs trying to say there is success when none exists.

That's what gets me. People are too focused on changes. We actually plateued last two years. To me this has more to do with coaching and not Dubas. Dubas has made the changes or tried to. He got too many good guys instead of right guys.

But his biggest blunder has been Keefe. Keefe has been atrocious is many ways

Lou for whatever he did, he hired an experience coach. That coach erases alot of his blunders and will continue to do so

Lou once had the balls to fire a coach Claude Julien weeks before the playoff started because he didn't like how the team was playing. They were first in their division, Lou didn't give a F

I like to have a GM who doesn't give an F

 

[Myopic]

We have no idea if he stays or not. Absolutely he could leave.

Matthews seems to be new breed of 'sensitive' male who takes everything as a micro-aggression. He probably views the Toronto media as the enemy for simply bringing up the losing and uncomfortable stuff. With all that being said, I think he will bolt to the states and probably play in a city like LA. One of his buddies is Justin Bieber who has a mansion in Beverly Hills. I don't buy him going home to Arizona.

 

[The CyNick]

You can do as you please. Not asking you not to post.

Just pointing out that you are an opportunist and you post when it's convenient. If the mods choose to ignore it, that's on them. Nothing anyone can do about it.

It's pathetic that a fan of another team can flood the Leafs boards on a burner but such is life. You've chosen to waste numerous hours on the internet trying to get people going. Seems odd but to each their own.

You missed the point of my previous post. I think your post about when I post and didn't is best directed to the moderators of the site than to me.

I can't help that most threads in here have turned into a debate on Dubas' competence. I have a very strong opinion. I would have loved to chat about the highs and lows of on ice action, but that opportunity was taken away from me.

For the record, been a Leafs fan my whole life. I find it funny that some people think I'm not a fan given my dislike of current management. If I was posting here during the Ballard era I wouldn't have been singing the praises of the old man. I'm a supporter of this team, make no mistake, but I'm not a guy who will say everything is fine when the house is on fire.

 

[The CyNick]

Matthews seems to be new breed of 'sensitive' male who takes everything as a micro-aggression. He probably views the Toronto media as the enemy for simply bringing up the losing and uncomfortable stuff. With all that being said, I think he will bolt to the states and probably play in a city like LA. One of his buddies is Justin Bieber who has a mansion in Beverly Hills. I don't buy him going home to Arizona.

Agree completely.

I think he likes being famous enough to get into rich people parties, but doesn't want to be accountable to explain why he can't get it done on the ice.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I think most of this is false.

You know it's all true. You just refuse to admit it.

Dubas wasted a 1st to unnecessarily get rid of Marleau, a 1st on Foligno (yikes!), and a 1st plus two prospects for Muzzin (who has been unavailable for 2 of 3 playoffs). That's not to touch on all the other random picks Dubas has tossed away.

Getting rid of Marleau was necessary, and that contract was a result of Lou's incompetence. Muzzin has been great for us, and has been well worth the cost we paid to acquire him. You misrepresent these and other transactions, while ignoring what Dubas has brought in, and how he improved the team.

"Were better now" holds no basis in reality.

Not true at all. We just had our best year by essentially every metric, from underlying ones to more simplistic surface ones, and won the division. We maintained our top offense, and now have a top defense to go with it, unlike the horrible defensive teams we had under Lou.

 

[LeafChief]

You missed the point of my previous post. I think your post about when I post and didn't is best directed to the moderators of the site than to me.

I can't help that most threads in here have turned into a debate on Dubas' competence. I have a very strong opinion. I would have loved to chat about the highs and lows of on ice action, but that opportunity was taken away from me.

For the record, been a Leafs fan my whole life. I find it funny that some people think I'm not a fan given my dislike of current management. If I was posting here during the Ballard era I wouldn't have been singing the praises of the old man. I'm a supporter of this team, make no mistake, but I'm not a guy who will say everything is fine when the house is on fire.

You know what - if that's the case, maybe I have misrepresented you and I apologize.

It is obvious that you're educated and well spoken. You know what you're talking about and for me, your negativity has been an annoyance for years. With that said, you're not wrong - you're allowed to have your opinion.

 

[Legion34]

I love how people think that Matthews will leave to go to Arizona.

love the player. But he is clearly a clout chaser. He has been talking about his love of bieber since he got here.

now because he is the best player on the leafs. He is right with bieber and gets into Jenner kardashian and McGregor parties.

the biggest stars in the world. He wants to get into clothing and fashion etc.

The security in his own building didn’t know who he was. Car rental agents don’t even know who the coyotes are.

no one on the kings or knights is getting into these parties.

if he was a quiet small town kid from minny. Sure.

he ain’t leaving. Toronto.

 

[fahad203]

Matthews seems to be new breed of 'sensitive' male who takes everything as a micro-aggression. He probably views the Toronto media as the enemy for simply bringing up the losing and uncomfortable stuff. With all that being said, I think he will bolt to the states and probably play in a city like LA. One of his buddies is Justin Bieber who has a mansion in Beverly Hills. I don't buy him going home to Arizona.

That's just who he is. People used to complain about Mats Sundin not being vocal or physical. But Mats was physical, he actually used his body on defenders to get around. But that was his game, where Matthews game is skill

I am ok Matthews not being physical, you can offset that by getting him a physical winger. Hyman was good, but not a physical winger.
If he scores 50 goals, I don't care for his physicality or animosity

 

[Legion34]

Matthews seems to be new breed of 'sensitive' male who takes everything as a micro-aggression. He probably views the Toronto media as the enemy for simply bringing up the losing and uncomfortable stuff. With all that being said, I think he will bolt to the states and probably play in a city like LA. One of his buddies is Justin Bieber who has a mansion in Beverly Hills. I don't buy him going home to Arizona.

lol bieber is his buddy because he plays for the leafs.

that’s probably the biggest reason he stays

 

[fahad203]

I love how people think that Matthews will leave to go to Arizona.

love the player. But he is clearly a clout chaser. He has been talking about his love of bieber since he got here.

now because he is the best player on the leafs. He is right with bieber and gets into Jenner kardashian and McGregor parties.

the biggest stars in the world. He wants to get into clothing and fashion etc.

The security in his own building didn’t know who he was. Car rental agents don’t even know who the coyotes are.

no one on the kings or knights is getting into these parties.

if he was a quiet small town kid from minny. Sure.

he ain’t leaving. Toronto.

He'll end up in NY then. It's hard to be a supertar and not love NY

 

[The CyNick]

You know it's all true. You just refuse to admit it.

Getting rid of Marleau was necessary, and that contract was a result of Lou's incompetence. Muzzin has been great for us, and has been well worth the cost we paid to acquire him. You misrepresent these and other transactions, while ignoring what Dubas has brought in, and how he improved the team.

Not true at all. We just had our best year by every metric, from underlying ones to more simplistic surface ones, and won the division. We maintained our top offense, and now have a top defense to go with it, unlike the horrible defensive teams we had under Lou.

Not going to get into the Marleau debate. I've written about that many times. I would say most people feel Dubas handled it poorly, but doesn't really matter to me. We see it differently. Fair play.

The success thing is strange to me though. Curious how you define success. Do you look at the season as all games are equal? Is game 57 of a normal season the same as game 7 of a playoff round? Sports in North America are built around a playoff structure. You define success by those crucial playoff games. It can appear to be a cruel way to evaluate given its only a fraction of all the games played in full year of hockey, but that's how it is.

Three straight years of Dubas "doing the right thing" and "making the team better" and yet three straight years of failure when it counts. And each year losing in a more embarrassing fashion.

When should we expect these underlying numbers to result in a deep run in the playoffs? If there is no direct correlation between underlying numbers and eventual success in the playoffs, doesn't that tell you the underlying numbers you are basing your opinion on are junk?

BTW - Lou's team set the record for regular season points. I dont think it's something he would brag about, but since you mentioned how much better the team has got under Dubas, thought it was worth pointing out.