Are we in Canada paranoid about 2026 or should we not be worried?

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
McDavid is the BEST player in the world by a country mile. It is NOT close.

McDavid is dominating Dallas and I thought Edmonton has NO chance going into this series.

*********************************************************************************************************

Mavrik Bourque is playing for Dallas. Nice!

He, Stankoven and Johnston will be the corner stone of the Dallas franchise for years to come.
 
Last edited:

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
1,442
1,331
You make good points about Hyman. The Chris Kunitz comparison is spot on. If it makes McDavid happy and they make magic together, that works for me - Hyman JUST scored off a McDavid feed.

As for Bedard...

IIRC, Bedard got his WC points against the early weak competition and, in my eyes, that takes away from the accomplishment. Having said that, I hope you're right - nothing would make me happier than to see Bedard dominating in a Canadian jersey.

I never like it when a player's sole chance is whether or not he is still on the same team as a guy who just got 100 assists. He may not be there in two years. I think a lot can happen in that time. When a player just comes out of nowhere and has a chance to be on the team that always makes me weary. You can say Reinhart falls into this type of spot, but Reinhart had a 82 point season once already before this year, he was also a 2nd overall pick in 2014. If anything Reinhart has taken far too long to burst out, and he led the Panthers in scoring this year, so leeches don't lead a team in points. Hyman will be 33 in 2006, I think we'll have much better options. I agree you want to have a guy that gets dirty and in the corners on the team, and we always do, but two years is a long ways, I doubt its him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ORRFForever

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
So... The nation with NO goaltending has a goaltender in the Stanley Cup... AGAIN!!!

As for the USA, the team everyone is afraid of...

* Hellebuyck was GOD awful in the playoffs - 5.23 G.A.A.
* Demko has injury issues
* Oettinger just got outplayed by Skinner.

What are we going to fret about when this stops being an issue?

I never like it when a player's sole chance is whether or not he is still on the same team as a guy who just got 100 assists. He may not be there in two years. I think a lot can happen in that time. When a player just comes out of nowhere and has a chance to be on the team that always makes me weary. You can say Reinhart falls into this type of spot, but Reinhart had a 82 point season once already before this year, he was also a 2nd overall pick in 2014. If anything Reinhart has taken far too long to burst out, and he led the Panthers in scoring this year, so leeches don't lead a team in points. Hyman will be 33 in 2006, I think we'll have much better options. I agree you want to have a guy that gets dirty and in the corners on the team, and we always do, but two years is a long ways, I doubt its him.
Fair enough. We'll see about Hyman in 2 years.

Like you, I am weary of Reinhart but he's been a high scoring 200 foot smart player for a couple years so...
 
Last edited:

SOLR

Registered User
Jun 4, 2006
13,253
6,814
Toronto / North York
Stamkos is amazing at faceoffs - Bedard is not. I'll take Stamkos's shot, size and faceoffs.

Bedard is not ready - hope he proves me wrong.

********************************************************************************************************

Sam Bennett is having himself quite a playoff run. Remember when he was a major bust?

You don't use Bedard as a center in the national team, he's a LW + PP specialist, probably for Mackinnon or Point. Could also be Suzuki who plays with the defensive stalwart named Goal Caufield, Bedard is in the same mold at this point+for this level.

Crosby - McDavid - Reinhart
LAF - Mackinnon - Johnston
Bedard - Point - Suzuki
Byfield - Celebrini - Cozens

PP

Mackinnon - Mcdavid - Crosby
Makar - Bedard

Byfield - Point - Johnston
Bouchard- Suzuki
 

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
You don't use Bedard as a center in the national team, he's a LW + PP specialist, probably for Mackinnon or Point. Could also be Suzuki who plays with the defensive stalwart named Goal Caufield, Bedard is in the same mold at this point+for this level.

Crosby - McDavid - Reinhart
LAF - Mackinnon - Johnston
Bedard - Point - Suzuki
Byfield - Celebrini - Cozens

PP

Mackinnon - Mcdavid - Crosby
Makar - Bedard

Byfield - Point - Johnston
Bouchard- Suzuki
You need someone who can win faceoffs on the 4th line.

I still think Bedard is too young and, if he's too young, Celebrini is really too young.

Could also be Suzuki who plays with the defensive stalwart named Goal Caufield
Ha, ha. Not a fan of Suzuki. It's hard for me to add him to my lineup.
 

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
1,442
1,331
So... The nation with NO goaltending has a goaltender in the Stanley Cup... AGAIN!!!

As for the USA, the team everyone is afraid of...

* Hellebuyck was GOD awful in the playoffs - 5.23 G.A.A.
* Demko has injury issues
* Oettinger just got outplayed by Skinner.

What are we going to fret about when this stops being an issue?

Skinner played unreal tonight. I read about him the other day and the writer commented that Skinner is one of those "hold your breath" type of goalies. That's true I guess you can say. When Brodeur entered a game you pretty much knew what you were getting. Skinner might get a lot more respect with a Cup to his name, including from yours truly. Maybe that's what it takes to finally give him credit. But he was unreal in Game 6 against Dallas. Definitely player of the game. And this is a game where Dallas outshot the Oilers like 34-10. No one is coming close to outshooting Canada by that margin. Maybe not outshooting them at all in any game. So he has to simply be solid. The old Chris Osgood way of playing, just don't blow it, you don't need to be elite.


You don't use Bedard as a center in the national team, he's a LW + PP specialist, probably for Mackinnon or Point. Could also be Suzuki who plays with the defensive stalwart named Goal Caufield, Bedard is in the same mold at this point+for this level.

Crosby - McDavid - Reinhart
LAF - Mackinnon - Johnston
Bedard - Point - Suzuki
Byfield - Celebrini - Cozens

PP

Mackinnon - Mcdavid - Crosby
Makar - Bedard

Byfield - Point - Johnston
Bouchard- Suzuki

Byfield will have to take another step next year to get on this team. He certainly could, and he'd be a good LW slot, but I think Laf made bigger strides this year. Byfield is a gem though. When you see him play you get it. So this could be burst out year.

I don't think Celebrini will be there. He would need at least a 90 point season in his rookie year and then start off even hotter in the fall of 2025 to get on this team. And even then, will they think that's enough? A comparison is Drew Doughty, he had played a season and a half in the NHL when he was added to the 2010 team. Rightly so too, that wasn't a mistake. And I believe in 2010 he was a 2nd team all-star. So good call regardless. But I am not sure Celebrini will make it, even with a hot start to his career. There are just so many guys aged 25-30 with more seasoning.
 

SOLR

Registered User
Jun 4, 2006
13,253
6,814
Toronto / North York
Skinner played unreal tonight. I read about him the other day and the writer commented that Skinner is one of those "hold your breath" type of goalies. That's true I guess you can say. When Brodeur entered a game you pretty much knew what you were getting. Skinner might get a lot more respect with a Cup to his name, including from yours truly. Maybe that's what it takes to finally give him credit. But he was unreal in Game 6 against Dallas. Definitely player of the game. And this is a game where Dallas outshot the Oilers like 34-10. No one is coming close to outshooting Canada by that margin. Maybe not outshooting them at all in any game. So he has to simply be solid. The old Chris Osgood way of playing, just don't blow it, you don't need to be elite.




Byfield will have to take another step next year to get on this team. He certainly could, and he'd be a good LW slot, but I think Laf made bigger strides this year. Byfield is a gem though. When you see him play you get it. So this could be burst out year.

I don't think Celebrini will be there. He would need at least a 90 point season in his rookie year and then start off even hotter in the fall of 2025 to get on this team. And even then, will they think that's enough? A comparison is Drew Doughty, he had played a season and a half in the NHL when he was added to the 2010 team. Rightly so too, that wasn't a mistake. And I believe in 2010 he was a 2nd team all-star. So good call regardless. But I am not sure Celebrini will make it, even with a hot start to his career. There are just so many guys aged 25-30 with more seasoning.

Yeah, I think Celebrini is a made-for-international-game-style 2-way center; he will be there very early. I think a 70-point season paired with a good world championship and an early PPG 2025 will suffice.

Byfield is taking a step every year, but he's just too big to resist. It's a perfect 4th liner and as a front-of-the-net presence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ORRFForever

SOLR

Registered User
Jun 4, 2006
13,253
6,814
Toronto / North York
You need someone who can win faceoffs on the 4th line.

I still think Bedard is too young and, if he's too young, Celebrini is really too young.


Ha, ha. Not a fan of Suzuki. It's hard for me to add him to my lineup.

Celebrini will be better than Bedard in his career at this level, but Bedard will get more pts in the NHL. Celebrini is made for this, just like Toews was.

Suzuki's prime will be around 28-30, he's very cerebral and he's added a big scoring dimension this year. But at 26, he will be hard to deny, too much physicality, too hard to handle. Perfect to play with Point and Bedard. He's playing with Slafkovski and Caufield, hard to be in the + with these 2 at this point. Getting better at Faceoffs as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ORRFForever

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
1,442
1,331
Yeah, I think Celebrini is a made-for-international-game-style 2-way center; he will be there very early. I think a 70-point season paired with a good world championship and an early PPG 2025 will suffice.

Byfield is taking a step every year, but he's just too big to resist. It's a perfect 4th liner and as a front-of-the-net presence.

I am not sure about his 2-way game to be honest. I have been dazzled by his skill offensively, but other than the WJC I haven't seen much of him and can't really dissect if he is a classic 200 foot player. Because if he is than that helps. Toews was on the 2010 team after two and a half seasons in the NHL and he ended up being the MVP of the Olympics. So you never know. Bedard would have the same games under his belt that Toews did. Celebrini will have a year and a half. I don't know, time will tell, but if we think Bedard's -44 was bad this year on Chicago I am sure Celebrini is going to have a similar plus/minus on the Sharks this year. I just wonder if it is too early for him. He might lose out in a numbers game.

I am going to bet that Byfield and Lafreniere are both on the team for different reasons but at the LW position. Man oh man, this team is going to have some supremely talented players. The skill up front will be off the charts.
 

NordiquesForeva

Registered User
May 30, 2022
867
994
With Reinhart, even if he doesn't produce at a 50+ goal pace going forward he's still one of the best 200-foot wingers in the league and I'd lean on him to play on a matchup line alongside Crosby.

On the other wing, I'd have Point, or Byfield.

With Point, we'd have a RHS centre that is versatile enough to play the off-wing, can take faceoffs on his strong side (as Crosby is a LHS), has great speed, a solid 200-foot game, and can score goals - thus complementing Crosby's playmaking ability.

With Byfield, we'd have a larger-bodied, incredibly fast winger that can move up and down the wing, win board battles all over the ice, and get in fast to pressure the d-men on the forecheck. Not as strong offensively (at this point) as Point though.

With Point you complete the line of cerebral, highly-skilled and complementary players; with Byfield you add some size and athleticism, and maybe a more dynamic presence analogous to Nash on Toews' line in 2010.

My current forward lineup:

Hyman - McDavid - Bedard
Byfield - MacKinnon - Johnston
Point - Crosby - Reinhart
Verhaeghe - Thomas - Lafreniere
Konecny, Marner
 

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
I am not sure about his 2-way game to be honest. I have been dazzled by his skill offensively, but other than the WJC I haven't seen much of him and can't really dissect if he is a classic 200 foot player. Because if he is than that helps.
^^ Are you talking about Bedard or Celebrini? ^^

I think you are talking about Bedard.

Man oh man, this team is going to have some supremely talented players. The skill up front will be off the charts.
I agree. For all the posters who complain about a lack of Canadian skill in 2024, wait until 2030.
 
Last edited:

SOLR

Registered User
Jun 4, 2006
13,253
6,814
Toronto / North York
I am not sure about his 2-way game to be honest. I have been dazzled by his skill offensively, but other than the WJC I haven't seen much of him and can't really dissect if he is a classic 200 foot player. Because if he is than that helps. Toews was on the 2010 team after two and a half seasons in the NHL and he ended up being the MVP of the Olympics. So you never know. Bedard would have the same games under his belt that Toews did. Celebrini will have a year and a half. I don't know, time will tell, but if we think Bedard's -44 was bad this year on Chicago I am sure Celebrini is going to have a similar plus/minus on the Sharks this year. I just wonder if it is too early for him. He might lose out in a numbers game.

I am going to bet that Byfield and Lafreniere are both on the team for different reasons but at the LW position. Man oh man, this team is going to have some supremely talented players. The skill up front will be off the charts.

Celebrini is a better Toews if that is possible, that's why I'm so high on him. Bigger, faster, stronger, better hands. And he's all over the ice, all the time, it's a real pain to play against this guy.

I think Celebrini will have a much better plus minus than Bedard in his first year. Bedard is an offensive pure breed, Celebrini is responsible. Sure he will have things to learn and he might play with others young players (Will Smith) with challenges of their own.
 

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
Celebrini is a better Toews if that is possible, that's why I'm so high on him. Bigger, faster, stronger, better hands. And he's all over the ice, all the time, it's a real pain to play against this guy.
That is a very high bar, indeed.
 

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
1,442
1,331
^^ Are you talking about Bedard or Celebrini? ^^

I think you are talking about Bedard.
Celebrini

Celebrini is a better Toews if that is possible, that's why I'm so high on him. Bigger, faster, stronger, better hands. And he's all over the ice, all the time, it's a real pain to play against this guy.

I think Celebrini will have a much better plus minus than Bedard in his first year. Bedard is an offensive pure breed, Celebrini is responsible. Sure he will have things to learn and he might play with others young players (Will Smith) with challenges of their own.

If that is the case I will say that Toews never had that sort of offensive ability. Not in junior, not in the WJC. He never had that eyes wide open top end skill. Great two-way guy who made a living off of that quite nicely and it translated into all the things you wanted it to translate into such as Internationally, in the playoffs, etc. But no doubt Celebrini is better offensively
 

MeHateHe

Registered User
Dec 24, 2006
2,726
3,120
Let's talk about goalies.

Actually, let's talk about why Canada hasn't been developing goalies.

Scott Wheeler's list of draft-eligible goalies includes just four goalies of 12 that are Canadian. All of the four are in the third tier, which he lists as a "has a chance to play in the NHL" tier.


The Athletic is also reporting on a specific initiative that USA Hockey is running to make a point of developing goalies.


And.... here comes my rant.

The easy thing would be to run off at the mouth and say Hockey Canada needs to get its act together and do more to specifically improve goaltending in Canada. I mean, the federation should, but fundamentally the problem is that Hockey Canada is not in the business of developing high-end players. Sure, we have the elite programs where top-end Canadian players get the ability to play together against international competition - the U17s, the World Junior A challenge, and the rest, but we have for decades essentially outsourced development to the private sector.

Junior hockey in this country is a business, and becoming more so. Junior hockey teams exist for one reason, and that's to make money. Sure, clubs get a boost when they have high end stars like Bedard, but teams are focused on winning. Winning and skills development at the 15-19 age bracket are not always compatible.. Teams are focused on systems and team play, which hinders creativity.

Moreover, junior teams who bring in foreign players, thereby limit playing time from Canadian players. I'm not one of those nativist, kick-the-furrieners-out guys, but this is just another example of why major junior isn't really a development stream for Canadian players. For a spell, major junior teams were prohibited from signing foreign (European) goalies, but that's since been relaxed somewhat. Those handful of foreign goalies take away playing time from developing Canadian goalies.

And finally, you've got Junior A leagues clamoring for trying to evade any responsibility for developing Canadian talent, with some threatening to emulate the BCHL's breakaway model. The BCHL, claiming it was doing it to support BC players, finished its most recent with a top 20 scoring race that included just eight Canadian players - just two of which were from BC.

What's the path forward?

I'd like to see Hockey Canada either take an active role in development or put greater requirements on the junior hockey teams to put more effort into development. I'm a fan of threats; if major junior doesn't start actually developing players, Hockey Canada will fund US-style national development U18 programs and play in a few of the stronger Junior A leagues.

I mean, major junior needs reform, anyway, so maybe we kill two birds with one stone.

My sense is that Canada can proceed on the current path for decades and still win a lot of international events. We are still churning out talent, as some Bruins fan on this thread keeps reminding us.

But we could be doing so much better. We develop a lot of great players, but development slows or stops as soon as players hit the win-at-all-costs junior leagues. That's the place we need to work on. We need more Canadian players in those leagues, playing fewer games and getting more development work.

Don't ask me about details. I'm a big picture person. But I think this all starts with another summit like we had after the 1998 Olympics.
 

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
Let's talk about goalies.

Actually, let's talk about why Canada hasn't been developing goalies.

Scott Wheeler's list of draft-eligible goalies includes just four goalies of 12 that are Canadian. All of the four are in the third tier, which he lists as a "has a chance to play in the NHL" tier.


The Athletic is also reporting on a specific initiative that USA Hockey is running to make a point of developing goalies.


And.... here comes my rant.

The easy thing would be to run off at the mouth and say Hockey Canada needs to get its act together and do more to specifically improve goaltending in Canada. I mean, the federation should, but fundamentally the problem is that Hockey Canada is not in the business of developing high-end players. Sure, we have the elite programs where top-end Canadian players get the ability to play together against international competition - the U17s, the World Junior A challenge, and the rest, but we have for decades essentially outsourced development to the private sector.

Junior hockey in this country is a business, and becoming more so. Junior hockey teams exist for one reason, and that's to make money. Sure, clubs get a boost when they have high end stars like Bedard, but teams are focused on winning. Winning and skills development at the 15-19 age bracket are not always compatible.. Teams are focused on systems and team play, which hinders creativity.

Moreover, junior teams who bring in foreign players, thereby limit playing time from Canadian players. I'm not one of those nativist, kick-the-furrieners-out guys, but this is just another example of why major junior isn't really a development stream for Canadian players. For a spell, major junior teams were prohibited from signing foreign (European) goalies, but that's since been relaxed somewhat. Those handful of foreign goalies take away playing time from developing Canadian goalies.

And finally, you've got Junior A leagues clamoring for trying to evade any responsibility for developing Canadian talent, with some threatening to emulate the BCHL's breakaway model. The BCHL, claiming it was doing it to support BC players, finished its most recent with a top 20 scoring race that included just eight Canadian players - just two of which were from BC.

What's the path forward?

I'd like to see Hockey Canada either take an active role in development or put greater requirements on the junior hockey teams to put more effort into development. I'm a fan of threats; if major junior doesn't start actually developing players, Hockey Canada will fund US-style national development U18 programs and play in a few of the stronger Junior A leagues.

I mean, major junior needs reform, anyway, so maybe we kill two birds with one stone.

My sense is that Canada can proceed on the current path for decades and still win a lot of international events. We are still churning out talent, as some Bruins fan on this thread keeps reminding us.

But we could be doing so much better. We develop a lot of great players, but development slows or stops as soon as players hit the win-at-all-costs junior leagues. That's the place we need to work on. We need more Canadian players in those leagues, playing fewer games and getting more development work.

Don't ask me about details. I'm a big picture person. But I think this all starts with another summit like we had after the 1998 Olympics.
But... Are our goalies REALLY that bad or are Canadians being super critical as usual?

Only 2 countries have a goalie in the Stanley Cup in 2024 and one is Canadian.

In the 9 years previous...

In 2023 it was Hill - Canadian.
In 2022 it was Kuemper - Canadian.
In 2019 it was Binnington - Canadian.
In 2018 it was Holtby - Canadian.
In 2017 it was Murray - Canadian.
In 2016 it was Murray and MAF - both Canadian.
In 2015 it was Crawford - Canadian.

Not too shabby.
 

MeHateHe

Registered User
Dec 24, 2006
2,726
3,120
But... Are our goalies REALLY that bad or are Canadians being super critical as usual?

Only 2 countries have a goalie in the Stanley Cup in 2024 and one is Canadian.

In the 9 years previous...

In 2023 it was Hill - Canadian.
In 2022 it was Kuemper - Canadian.
In 2019 it was Binnington - Canadian.
In 2018 it was Holtby - Canadian.
In 2017 it was Murray - Canadian.
In 2016 it was Murray and MAF - both Canadian.
In 2015 it was Crawford - Canadian.

Not too shabby.
I don’t think things are bad. I think we could be doing better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ORRFForever

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
I don’t think things are bad. I think we could be doing better.
Fair enough.

WE (myself included) ALL dump on our goalies. I just wish we'd find one great one, like Price was, so we could stop worrying about it.
 

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
Bennett and Verhaeghe, geesh, everywhere - complete and dominant two hundred foot players.

Nurse is.... Nurse. That 2nd goal. :(
 

ORRFForever

Registered User
Oct 29, 2018
19,836
11,086
Have to find room for Bennett and Verhaeghe on Canada's 4th line. See them take the steam out of Auston Matthews (assuming Eichel has not bumped him from the top line) and score going the other way.
 

Nucks2001

Registered User
Jul 6, 2023
507
386
Have to find room for Bennett and Verhaeghe on Canada's 4th line. See them take the steam out of Auston Matthews (assuming Eichel has not bumped him from the top line) and score going the other way.
Verhaege warrants serious consideration and I would have him on my roster, but Bennett? Feel like we have more skilled two-way guys. He doesn’t kill penalties, is horrible at face-offs, takes undisciplined penalties and is not even the primary puck carrier on his line as a centre. He does add a front of net presence and is a great guy to have in your corners, but you already have Hyman and Reinhart for that. Would rather fill the roster up with the best players available, do not want a re-run of the ‘98 and ‘06 teams grinder squads
 

NordiquesForeva

Registered User
May 30, 2022
867
994
Verhaege warrants serious consideration and I would have him on my roster, but Bennett? Feel like we have more skilled two-way guys. He doesn’t kill penalties, is horrible at face-offs, takes undisciplined penalties and is not even the primary puck carrier on his line as a centre. He does add a front of net presence and is a great guy to have in your corners, but you already have Hyman and Reinhart for that. Would rather fill the roster up with the best players available, do not want a re-run of the ‘98 and ‘06 teams grinder squads

I would strongly prefer that Canada doesn't select Bennett to any best-on-best team, especially for an Olympic tournament. He is a very good NHL player and a valuable component of a championship-calibre team, but takes too many undisciplined penalties that would most likely cost us in the context of international refereeing and the higher overall skill level. Personally, I don't think he'd be able to keep up with the skill level and pace at the Olympic level.

I also think he'd be less effective overall if the coaching staff reined him in, in terms of his aggressive style of play.

If Armstrong selected him for the 4 Nations Cup, on NHL-sized ice with NHL refereeing, I wouldn't be as fussed. But I do think there are better options available.

I would have no problem with Verhaeghe on any best-on-best team. Canada is fairly light on the left side, he is a highly-skilled goal scorer and natural winger and has played really well in recent playoffs. He also seems adaptable and versatile enough to play with any centre and in any role and keep doing his thing (if game 1 is any indication, Barkov/Reinhart/Verhaeghe is being matched against the McDavid line).
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad